Author Topic: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)  (Read 52032 times)

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 04:11:24 PM »
D1 - in my opinion, after standing there yesterday and taking in the landscape - no way would one just 'spot' this location by driving by in August - it's narrow, set back from the road and would be covered in greenery in August.  It would be there one moment and gone in an instant - especially if the traffic lights were there in 1978 - which I will get to in my next post.  If there were 2 people in a vehicle - that would be a different story, as one would be a lookout for a spot.

I've had a drivers license for 36 years now - I can look around and have control of my vehicle and have never caused an accident.  If I suddenly found myself with a body in my vehicle that I had to dispose of, I would be jumpy and not be able to concentrate as well as I normally would.  If someone was there to help me, I would feel better - if I was alone I would have great difficulty unless I planned it ahead of time and knew where I was going to go.  I would definitely be all over the road looking left and right if I was in this situation alone.

Suddenly having to pick up a shovel would be another issue to deal with.

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 04:46:05 PM »
Solvy - love the high tech map. I will endeavor to learn how to use this.

It looks pretty good - I'm wondering though, why when I get to the site map I can't see traffic lights at the corner, even though I see what looks like Concession 3 printed off to the right hand side.  It is a little blurry as well.  But really cool waiting for it to zoom in!

The landscape it slightly off as well - too many gaps in the greenery -it's solid foilage on every side and overhead.  When you look at other maps posted by D1, you can see how the foilage and trees come right up to the road with few gaps.  That is what I saw on Saturday, and that is what was described to me by the local historian.

solvy

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 05:11:50 PM »
Woodland:  Yes, I did notice there seems to be a lot of shadow.  also don't know how long ago this was produced. I have some property in southern bc that has had s lot of new building done on it in the last few years yet google maps still shows it undeveloped.  They must update every 4-5 years or so.  Perhaps bing uses the same maps.

I am also just a newbie on this map site, but it does seem it could be useful.  I also wonder about the site across the road from the dump site.  Looks like a place where atv's or motorbikes would be used. Probably well known to local riders. 

Interesting that Debbie was partially buried so close to the main road.  How long would that have taken? 20 min  or so.  If done at night, you would think lights would be needed, and these would have been seen from themain road.  Farmers or rural occupants are pretty observant of odd things on or around their property. If this was done during the daylight, this becomes a bolder event and maybe tells more about the culprit.

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 07:15:20 PM »
Solvy - Just looked at google maps and there are no traffic lights at the corner.  Will ask the local historian how long ago they were installed.

Do not yet know how close to the road Debbie was buried - still waiting on the local historian who has twice told me he is trying to find the exact location from previous owners and others in the area.  I walked the road/laneway south for 75 feet or so and saw nothing but mother nature.  I just walked around the gate by the way - it only crosses the actual laneway.

With so much canopy overhead and on all sides, it would indeed have been very dark at night if trying to dig.  The farmer/owner would not and still cannot see that far across his property even if some light was shinning - it's to far with to much nature in the way.  A perfect spot.

D1

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2009, 01:27:38 AM »
It's all quite telling in a way, if only we could read the clues. Like Solvy said
Quote
If this was done during the daylight, this becomes a bolder event and maybe tells more about the culprit. 

With every little detail that gets added, a clearer picture will emerge. The little "play" area across the street is of interest. Its a more obvious spot to find if cruising for a drop spot, it has trails that go back in the trees. Why not drop off there? Maybe you need a truck for the trails on this side of the road and a car could just back in the other? The chosen spot was likely known well before hand. Maybe it was seen and found by someone who had been at the off road spot on the other side of the road before?

Debbie was 21, are these off road motorcycle trails across from where she was found? Just following up a little on the idea left by Solvy..

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 07:25:21 AM »
The gate on the south side is directly across from the open area on the north side.  The north side is quite rough - you would need a truck or dirt bike to move around there.

It would have been easy to leave the body on the north side at the tree line with the right vehicle.  So one does have to wonder if she was meant to be found or not - it would have taken time to bury her.  Why not just leave her on the south side at the tree line?

solvy

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2009, 01:17:35 PM »
Could it be that the track area,used by many, would make an excellent vantage point to view and review his "work" without being suspicious?  He could go many times and just observe , see if anyone else was around the site, become a gatekeeper.

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2009, 02:52:19 PM »
Good question Solvy - just not sure how open to the public this lot is or was.  It's private property and happens to be up for sale at the moment.

Maybe the owners let people they knew with off road vehicles use it - will start emailing about that now.

capeheart

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 06:00:22 PM »
Woodland, this sure sounds like there is a connection with more then one person committing the two crimes. I cannot understand why young women think that because they have their own vehicle, they will be safe going home early in the morning hours. Did somebody follow Debbie and she did not even notice it.???? They just came right in behind her and attacked her. They possibly covered her screams immediately and did not give a chance for her to react. Of course, there are crazy people out there that do copycat crimes. But if you remember in California there was a serial rapist, he murdered his victims and put them in the same place. Several women were found murdered in the same spot, but they did finally arrest him and he was convicted. I think there is a connection, it sure sounds like it. Lost, you hit on it, a pattern, a habit of doing something. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

lostlinganer

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 06:30:55 PM »
For some strange reason, I feel this guy uses an ATV with a little trailer on back.... just a hunch I have.  ....maybe hangs out within this "square" of familar territory planning his next big thrill.  ...maybe even parks a bigger rig somewhere else.  I don't know why, but this just seems to be the feeling in my gut.

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2009, 07:15:17 PM »
Just read the Durham Region Police Website regarding this case - what a bunch of fools.  They are no more committed to solving this case than the killer is.

The case is posted on Durham Region Site as 5 March 2009 and Durham Police claim that this is exactly the 25th anniversary of her disappearance - wrong.  25 years happened in August 2003.  August 2009 would be 31 years.

There is so little info as to be a waste of time - not even the mention that Christine Jessop was found a short 9 kms away with the same type of coordinates.  Durham Police advise the public to call the OPP or Crimestoppers - apparently don't call them even though she was found in their jurisdiction.  They are displaying the same incompetence as they did 25 years ago when they insisted in taking over the Christine Jessop case.

What do we pay these guys for?  The public and the Silverman family is in the same postion with or without them - so why not save the money?

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2009, 07:49:29 PM »
Tried to find an OPP Website with details of this case as Durham Region Police directs the public to do - cannot find anything.

Does anyone else have a link to an OPP site on this case?

Shwa

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2009, 07:06:08 AM »
Looks like the OPP revamped their site yet again.  Well, at least we know they are employing lots of IT folks.   ;D

Try this link to the PDF:  http://www.opp.ca/ecms/files/250383078.6.pdf

Here is their Crime Files page:  http://www.opp.ca/ecms/index.php?id=182

D1

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2010, 04:41:35 PM »
I'm beginning to think there may be something to the Olson story..This same incompetant type investigation culminating in serial cold cases has been seen before all involving this same suspect. Maybe he does know something? Maybe we can figure out what that is if this suspect is included in the calculations??

From Olson
Quote
In the summer of 1978 on August 12th, 21 year old Deborah Silverman who lived in the apartment block building on Bathhurst Street in Toronto went missing. Her car was parked in the northwest corner of the lot behind the apartment block and her purse, lace trimmed panties and a broken gold necklace were found inside the back door. On Sunday Novermber 12th, 1978 her body was found in a lot on a farm at an intersection of Highway 7 at Durham Regional Road 13 in the Brock Township about 42 miles east of York. Her hands were tied behind her back with the sleeves of her blue and white shirt and her black halter top was around her neck. Her brassiere was still on but she had no shoes or underpanties on. Olson informed various people on his knowledge of Silverman's murder. He notified then Premier William Davis of Ontario by letter, Robert Rae, MPP of the N.D.P. Party of Ontario by letter dated May 9th, 1983 and David Peterson M.P.P. Liberal Leader of Ontario by letter dated May 4th, 1983. ON August 9th, 1982 Olson swore an affidavit with photos taken at the murder farm grave along with photos of Silverman being buried. In the following years up to 1988 a number of police officers interviewed Olson in Kingston Penitentiary on the Silverman case. On January 9th, 1987 in a letter to the Honourable Ian Scott, Attorney General of Ontario, Olson requested immunity from prosecution for the murder of Silverman. Olson says he was present and can name the killer and give photos. On December 9th, 1987 two detectives interviewed Olson regarding the letter he sent to Ian Scott and informed him there would be no deal. Olson now refuses to talk to any of them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 04:43:07 PM by D1 »

Woodland

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Re: Debbie Silverman (21) - Murder (Aug. 12, 1978)
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2010, 03:58:18 PM »
D1 - it was difficult to find the quote you posted.  To fill in other readers, it's from a book written by Clifford Olson about himself, titled 'Profile of a Serial Killer, The Clifford Robert Olson Story'.  In it, Olson writes in both the third person and first person.

In one long paragraph, Olson claims -
1.  He began a letter writing campaign with his knowledge on the Debbie Silverman murder in 1983 - the year following his cash payment of $100,000 for the 11 murders he pled guilty to.  He wanted more money in exchange for the name of Debbie's killer, claiming he was present at the time and took pictures.

2.  Olson then claims to have sworn out an affidavit in 1982, complete with pictures of Debbie in the process of being buried.  He handed over pictures of a crime scene and no charges were filed against him?  No media story appeared at the time?

3.  He then claims that in 1987 he offered pictures of Debbie's crime scene to the Ontario Attorney General.  He said he already did that 5 years prior!!

Olson claims knowledge of missing women in 5 US states and 3 Canadian provinces, other than BC, and has more pictures that the killers conveniently sent to his lawyer for a negotiating tool.  He was escorted from jail in Saskatoon to show officers the location of bodies in that area, but couldn't manage to find any and appeared quite lost.

In 1978 Olson was released from prison once again in BC and travelled to Sydney, Nova Scotia where he was accused of molesting a young girl.  He fled back to BC and wound up back in jail on other charges.  I do not know the dates of these occurences.  That would mean though, that he was on Bathurst Street in Toronto on August 12th with another killer he had met, abducted Debbie, found Sunderland and they had a shovel and camera with them.  He also claims to have been in Quebec on November 19th of that year when a college student went missing from campus.