Author Topic: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?  (Read 23192 times)

Concerned

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »
So, you wake up at 2 a.m. and your dog is at high alert. You wander down your hallway, cautiously, to find someone breaking into your home's back door. You call authorities but they are at least 10 minutes away and the dispatch is not able to offer solutions. Your children are sleeping in rooms behind you. The door opens.... perp is in. What do you do? (Just curious)

RubyRose

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2012, 12:20:30 PM »
Not sure what you actually do but apparently what you must not do (as it appears almost anyone who does, ends up in a pile of trouble) is to attempt to defend yourself.


jellybean

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2012, 05:01:06 PM »
There is no reason for every household or citizen in our country to pack a gun.  Many a child has been accidently shot by having them in their home. Yes, I know, that the law states that they are to be locked up for a child's safety, however it tragically still happens.

Guns seldom protect an invader into our homes, or stop a mom and pop store hold- up in Canada.

JB

Concerned

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2012, 06:12:23 PM »
so...what do you do?

When you add up the statistics of how many children are harmed by a gun in the house, make note of how many of those guns were acquired illegally and without any gun training. Look into whether the gun owners have records for illegal activity. These crimes should not be held against the law abiding citizens, but instead added to the perps as they placed their children (or the households' children) in grave danger and that is a crime in and of itself.

Then add up how many crimes on innocent households happen where perp uses a weapon and the homeowner does not have any.

Then look into all those who received proper gun training, abide by acquiring reasonable guns legally, and add up how many crimes they have started and/or finished.

Remember, those that illegally acquire guns will be able to illegally acquire them no matter what.

I think we would all be surprised by the answers to these considerations. You might, just might, find that those with guns properly trained may have made the world a bit safer along the way just by the process of acquiring the gun...legally and with training.

The answers have the power to perhaps changes opinions on the debate on gun control answers.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 06:22:27 PM by Concerned »

jellybean

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »
Our Canadian police force have said, Toronto Police in particular, that (in the case of the mass shooting at the Toronto Eaton Centre) that if citizens had guns, it would have been chaos.  The police would be afraid to even enter.

Police spend hours, and hours for accuracy in their gun training, which is always ongoing.

Give a citizen a gun, and teach them how to unlock it and aim it, with a few hours training, does not make a sure shooter.  Even cops miss -

Sorry, but I am against citizens having guns and this is one of the reasons.

Take domestic abuse.  If there was a gun in the house?  Can you imagine?  In a rage? No time to think twice.

Guns belong to the trained military, and to the trained police forces.  In my opinion, they do not belong in the hands of ordinary citizens.

Rifles for hunters - yes.  Rifles for those who live in isolated areas?  - Yes.  However they should be registered.

Harper does not think this is necessary.  Every police chief went to Ottawa with a request to continue on with gun registration, as they stated it helps them in their work.  Guess it fell on deaf ears.  In fact the Fed's data base is to be destroyed.   Each Province requested, not to destroy the data, but to give it to the Provinces, and the answer was no.

The police would have a reason to feel so strongly about gun registration, and they never went into great detail with the public.

JB

leonagleant

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2012, 09:49:26 PM »
There is no real debate on gun control. Without it, the US will become more and more like a country at civil war. An increasing proportion of the population will have lost a family member or have been injured in random public or domestic shootings. A story like this one about a woman shot by boys as young as 10-12 years old will increasingly become the norm:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/18/news/mn-28533

How would you feel if you had been crippled because the society you lived in had allowed guns into the hands of children and mentally ill people through benign neglect?

Things are already badly out of control and can only get worse without a major change in gun policy.

Nish

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 09:56:57 AM »
In the interest of clarity, if I am following Concerned's line of thinking (and I think I am), let's be fair and keep the mass shootings in Toronto separate from legitimate deer hunters in Moosonee. It's only fair. The two do not compare. Someone toting a large gun collection in Old York doesn't make a bunch of sense to me. Someone having legally acquired firearms for the purpose of sport, in an area where said sport can be effectively undertaken in a safe manner - does.

Speaking about mentally ill people getting hands on guns has little to do with law abiding firearms owners, IMO. The LGR in Canada served to criminalize farmers and sportsmen and has not been proven to have been a deterrent or a tool in aiding arrest of serious criminals.

I am not for a nation with no control over firearms. It is needed. To ensure that the wrong people cannot get their hands on firearms. But like the war on drugs, much of it is pure window dressing to the hardened sorts who make a career out of crime.

Furthermore, comparing the States to Canada is like comparing apples to bowling balls, IMO.

jellybean

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2012, 04:49:30 PM »
Nish, I had said that hunters are okay to have guns, with registration, etc, etc.,

Most murders in Canada are not - by guns, but by knives, etc.
Why?  Because we are not armed to the teeth with AK's etc.

Sorry, but I would not want to have my neighbour (who is reclusive and odd on his best days) armed with a fire weapon. 

He takes great pleasure with his BB gun, blasting at squirrels, kids who wander onto his property, and a friendly neighbourhood dog or two.

In fact BB guns can also be dangerous (putting out an eye for instance.)

We have enough illegal guns on our streets which are usually used by gangs to kill each other.

Concerend:  your scenario does not make sense to someone who lives in a bungalow. People who b and e are not interested in killing but in stealing, and if an alteration does arise, the killing is often by knife - not  a gun.
Intruders take people by surprise. No time to find a gun in a small apartment or bungalow.
A woman who is raped, is often attacked in her bed while she is sleeping.  No time to reach for a gun, or run to the locked gun case. 
Sorry, it just does not make sense to me.  Just my opinion.

Guns for citizens - Humbug!!

JB
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 04:57:26 PM by jellybean »

jellybean

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2012, 05:06:09 PM »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/04/homicides-statistics-canada-2011.html
Homicide rates in Canada rise 7%
 
Firearm deaths at lowest level in almost 50 years as killers favour the blade
 
CBC News

Posted: Dec 4, 2012 8:58 AM ET

Last Updated: Dec 5, 2012 1:24 AM ET
Read 573 comments573
Homicide rates by metropolitan area
(Note:CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external links.)
 

The number of homicides in Canada rose to 598 in 2011, 44 more than the previous year, marking the first increase in three years, according to data released today.
 
Statistics Canada reported Tuesday that the homicide rate has stayed "relatively stable over the past decade." Prior to that, it had been declining since the mid-1970s.
 
However, deaths related to firearms aren't nearly as common, the federal agency said.
 


MAPNational homicide rate increases 7%

"The rate of firearm homicides per 100,000 population has generally been declining since the mid-1970s and, in 2011, reached its lowest point in almost 50 years."
 
The Canadian murder weapon of choice is now the blade.
 
"An increase in stabbings accounted for virtually the entire increase in homicides in 2011," the federal data agency said.
 
It said there were 39 more stabbings in 2011 compared to 2010. Overall, stabbings accounted for 35 per cent of homicides, firearms for 27 per cent, beatings for 22 per cent and strangulation for seven per cent.
 
Overall, the homicide rate was 1.73 per 100,000 population in 2011, seven per cent higher than in 2010, Statistics Canada said.
 
Metropolitan Winnipeg had the highest number of homicides at 39, as well as the highest rate among major cities, followed by Halifax and Edmonton.
 
The rates in Winnipeg and Halifax were the highest in those cities since data became available in 1981, Statistics Canada said.
 
Here are Canada's top 10 cities ranked by their homicide rate per 100,000 people:
1.Winnipeg, 5.08
2.Halifax, 4.41
3.Edmonton, 4.17
4.Thunder Bay, 3.33
5.Regina, 3.15
6.Saint John, 2.90
7.Peterborough, 2.44
8.Saskatoon, 2.16
9.St. John's, 2.12
10.London, 1.80

Across Canada, police considered 95 homicides to be gang-related in 2011, similar to 2010, but well below the peak of 138 reached in 2008. Gang homicides increased steadily from the early 1990s until 2008, before declining in both 2009 and 2010.
 
The report said the majority of homicide victims and those accused of homicide are male. In 2011, males accounted for seven in 10 homicide victims and nine in 10 of those accused of homicide.
 
Victims typically know their killer. Among solved homicides in 2011, almost half were committed by an acquaintance or friend, one-third by a family member and only 15 per cent by a stranger.
 
Police reported 89 homicides involving intimate partners in 2011, including 76 female victims and 13 male victims. This resulted in a rate of 0.26 intimate partner homicides per 100,000 population, similar to the rate in recent years.
 
The rate of intimate partner homicides committed against females increased by 19 per cent in 2011, the third increase in four years. The rate for male victims declined by almost half, hitting the lowest point since data collection began in 1961.----------------------

I rest my case. :)

JB

SAP

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2012, 05:14:13 PM »
So, you wake up at 2 a.m. and your dog is at high alert. You wander down your hallway, cautiously, to find someone breaking into your home's back door. You call authorities but they are at least 10 minutes away and the dispatch is not able to offer solutions. Your children are sleeping in rooms behind you. The door opens.... perp is in. What do you do? (Just curious)

Don't wait for the perp to be walking down the hall ... install a good security system whereby all windows and doors are set on alarm and that should stop anyone b/c they don't know how soon the police will arrive and they may reconsider not taking the chance. Cams are also a good deterrent and the perp can see the lights. If that fails, I have a tire iron and baseball bat handy. :)

Nish

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2012, 06:56:32 PM »
What weapons did that arsehole use in Connecticut? I was not aware that any were restricted/prohibited.

I am not meaning to open that debate. I am just asking. A .22 is just as lethal as an AK from a physical standpoint. Sure, numbers rise with the cyclic rate of automatic weaponry but my point is that if someone is intent on doing bad with a firearm then whether they have to reload after every shot or just spray wildly is kind of moot to the central point.

Nish

Concerned

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 11:31:56 PM »
Jellybean, that scenario was a real one.  Hand-held mickey mouse weapons probably are not effective from a distance against theirs. Would a hammer, a knife, bear spray, security cameras, or a home alarm (out in the country) deter a crime in process?  Could a gun? You don't get a second chance the first time around to figure it out. What they take away can't be replaced. repaired, or revived.

Sorry, I will never, ever agree with you on this one no matter how many times you state your case. Believing in a fairy tale sometimes doesn't work out so well. It is a lesson that is really hard to learn if you are unfortunate enough to have been the victim and "lucky" enough to survive.

Is a country that allows guns putting their citizens in more danger? Is a country that doesn't allow its citizens to have guns a sitting duck for easy crimes? The debate will go on. The fact that we are even debating whether a person should "defend" themselves (by any means) means a problem already exists (in both the country that allows citizens to have guns and the country that doesn't).

My point is it is not the weapons that need to be fixed (although I agree there are some that just don't have any place in a home). They are items that when left alone don't, in and of themselves, harm whether mickey-mouse, manual, automatic, fully-loaded or double-barrelled or rocket-propelled. It has something to do with those that harm, and continue to harm, that aren't being stopped, or when they are caught they get the revolving door, and get out of jail crazy card as we all continue to scratch our heads. How do these individuals become harmful? Why? How do we recognize the propensity? The activity? Deter? It has something to do with being able to outsmart the criminals before they take over a home, our youth, or worse yet leadership, political positions, courts, policing and more. Something to do with finding societal solutions that prevent, deter and eradicate behaviors before it is too late.

Debating gun control is a distraction and a scapegoat.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 07:33:44 AM by Concerned »

Nish

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 11:39:44 PM »
Debating gun control is a distraction and a scapegoat.

Best quote over three pages. Best to re-quote it when this hits pages 6, 9, and so on.

Nish

leonagleant

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2012, 12:52:59 AM »
Quote: "Speaking about mentally ill people getting hands on guns has little to do with law abiding firearms owners, IMO. "

I was thinking of the recent Connecticut massacre where the owner of the firearms was very law abiding I understand. Unfortunately she was also a fool who armed herself to the hilt with weapons of mass destruction and got herself killed by a her loony son. Tragically he also killed a school full of young children and their mostly female teachers.

If any supposedly fully sane and responsible person stocks their house with weaponry, it's only an accident waiting to happen until a child or unstable person comes along to play with these toys.

I might not object to people carrying around a knife to defend themselves or bear spray or something.

But I think the greatest advancement we might see is in using technology to keep ourselves safer with cell phones, alarms, and such related devices still to be invented. I'd like to see some stats on how many people have saved lives that couldn't have been saved in the past through such technology.

Sad thing is that once someone starts shooting there really is no time and no chance to save lives. So the guns have got to go and I see no real need for hunting rifles either in this day and age.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 12:56:20 AM by leonagleant »

jobo

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Re: The Gun Control Issue - Opinions?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2012, 03:47:03 AM »
Fair enough what you are saying Concerned....but what I really, truly wonder is how many people actually have protected themselves with a gun?  I do not hear of too many people shooting back....or shooting an intruder about to do harm.  Or stopping a madman.  Which is probably a good thing or else it could be bedlam if people started whipping out their guns in return fire.
 I suppose then, we could say that most people in America, and even Canada do not do harm with their guns.  Most people are using their guns for hunting.

The issue, I agree, is the madmen/women....the people bent on harming others.
Also, sentences aren't tough enough.

I just read some article where the guy charged with murder had already spent time (not much) in jail for murdering his grandmother. (can't recall who and where)...but in my opinion, anyone that could/would kill his grandma should never come back out of jail.  And, he did, and now he has killed again.  We hear of many perps that are doing just that. 
They say that is the problem with the gangs in Toronto, the perps get a slap on the wrist and are quickly back out of jail, continuing where they left off.

I have been following a local murder trial where the ex was quoted as saying that it was worth 7 years in jail to murder his ex, so he shot her in the head....but he was recently sentenced to 25 years without the possibility of parole.  I believe that is the maximum sentence that can be given in Canada, so  I was relieved to see he got way more than he thought he would, he got the max... but would still like to see these kinds of sentences be Life in Jail, which would be the rest of your natural life in jail.

I believe bear spray is illegal....(kindof a joke isn't it?)...so, use hairspray or perfume.