Author Topic: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 - Age 23 - Murdered - Saskatoon  (Read 239033 times)

Adrian

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #210 on: October 26, 2008, 06:30:39 PM »


The other similarity is we posted at the same time! Ha! Keep on, Keeping on.!

Baba Donya

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #211 on: October 26, 2008, 06:42:58 PM »
The landscape of the riverbank was that there was very little shrubbery at the time. Just the spot where she was buried. The bank itself at that time was alot lesser incline than it is today. There were not enough trees to muffle her screams. SOMEONE SAW AND HEARD!

From where the boys were standing, according to what we can figure out...to her shallow grave was approximately 100 to 200 feet. Not sure exactly, because the police today could only guess as to the exact location of where the shallow grave had been.

Alot has been changed since then, on the bank. Not Spadina Crescent though. The weir is still there, too, and so is the steel bridge.

Baba Donya

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #212 on: October 26, 2008, 06:43:40 PM »
 ;) Thanks Adrian!

Baba Donya

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #213 on: October 26, 2008, 06:54:50 PM »
Hi, DebbieC

Yes, Debbie you are right. I am so glad the coroner, was not that thorough! Yes, a DNA profile has been made.

So we are hoping that the boys in blue, and all the attendants and medical staff who helped with removal of her body, etc. come forward to elimate their DNA.

We want the Killer(s) caught, and I know they do, too!

DigDig

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2008, 07:26:33 PM »
Thanks Baba,
Funny that's how I saw it in my mind's eye..about 200 feet.
How sure is the time of death? I mean, there are a lot of factors that come in to play when establishing this. At best it is a very inexact science. What fact(s)was the TOD opinion based on?

I might not grasp this the right way yet but it seems to be like this: The boys saw her at 7:30. At 8:00
she was buried in the shallow grave, with all the things that was done to her, were done in a half hour. 'Humanly impossible' seems to be the operative word here, unless there was a whole crew of  guys. It certainly speaks for  more than one perpetrator.
Baba Donya, I am new here and there are things I don't grasp yet. If I am way off base, please set me straight.

lostlinganer

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #215 on: October 26, 2008, 09:56:28 PM »
Hi DigDig; nice to meet you.
I 'm kind of dwelling on two things that are a little different....first of all, I think a guy or couple of guys could come along.... see this overly attractive female, and within minutes, get aroused enough to rape her (and depending on whether that guy's already primed or on the hunt for such - let's say someone that just gotten left an unwilling date, or for whatever reason, didn't get to complete their mission - or someone who just got turned on at the movies for example) could have raped Alexandra within a few minutes and killed her - in another minute.  ....let's assume they grabbed a broken tree branch or sharp board, or even a tool that coincidentally was laying around, and quickly and furiously started digging at the already composed damp--from-the-winter ground.... (I was an avid gardener most of my life and could dig into compost and plant a fair size shrub within minutes that time of year) .... it could happen if half an hour ... especially if there were two of them. ---OR---- what if they just covered her with leaves and/or debris and came back hours later with a shovel and did a better job.  Isn't that possible! 

Baba Donya

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2008, 12:22:20 AM »
Digdig:  Have you watched the first edition "The Death of a Beauty Queen". This most recent one, is the second edition. You will find many of your answers, in the first edition. Also, in the newspaper articles that are on www.alexandrawiwcharuk.net.

Unfortunately, the coroner is now deceased. Therefore, finding out how he came to that conclusion as the time of death, especially in 1962, seems nearly impossible.

One theory is that this may have been put into the papers to appease the public from panic...or was it another reason???

At this point, what we know is for our evidence, and I will give you any information that is already publicized, or where to find it easily.

As for the boys, they saw her later than that. Which even shortens what events transpired until the time of death.

Digdig, what are saying is very observant and intuitive. What other ideas do you have?


Baba Donya

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2008, 12:34:47 AM »
Wow, Lost....I was trying to find out what movies were playing in Saskatoon that night, for the investigation.

Lost, that site was being escavated, therefore the heavy equipment would have made the dirt/clay there, very hard to dig. There was also a road that was temporarily made that went past the shallow grave, therefore, I think that this soil/clay was very impacted. They would have had to use a tool, such as a shovel, I would think. The grave was not as shallow, as many would think. It just wasn't six feet down.

Did anyone get a good look at the beer bottles?

debbiec

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2008, 09:40:24 AM »
Hi Baba, I know the site was being excavated, so I wonder if anyone has thought about the possibility that a piece of equipment was used to dig the hole, you know like a back ho or whatever they used to dig with there. It really sounds like it would have taken a long time to dig a hole in that type of soil/clay digging with a shovel. The other thing I wondered about was premeditation where the hole was already dug. I don't know if she was a creature of habit but I'm thinking that someone may have known her routine and planned ahead. Also thought that because people were used to the sound of the equipment, that perhaps even if someone started a piece at night no one may notice. It would certainly hide the sound of screams. Just a thought. I did look at the beer bottles. Three long neck beer bottles, one with the neck broken right off and I thought perhaps at least two different labels. May speak to the number of perps.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:07:52 AM by debbiec »

lostlinganer

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #219 on: October 27, 2008, 10:06:17 AM »
 Back then, most machine operators had a case of beer onboard to keep warm or just habitual drinkers.  I'm just going by what I remember about those guys around here back then ....always booze on them because those machines were
horrible cold.  They just chucked the empties anywhere while working.

DigDig

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #220 on: October 27, 2008, 11:30:43 AM »
Digdig:  Have you watched the first edition "The Death of a Beauty Queen". This most recent one, is the second edition. You will find many of your answers, in the first edition. Also, in the newspaper articles that are on www.alexandrawiwcharuk.net.

Unfortunately, the coroner is now deceased. Therefore, finding out how he came to that conclusion as the time of death, especially in 1962, seems nearly impossible.

One theory is that this may have been put into the papers to appease the public from panic...or was it another reason???

At this point, what we know is for our evidence, and I will give you any information that is already publicized, or where to find it easily.

As for the boys, they saw her later than that. Which even shortens what events transpired until the time of death.

Digdig, what are saying is very observant and intuitive. What other ideas do you have?



Baba Donya,
Thanks for the nice words. Now it is time for me to quit asking questions and rather sit down and go through everything that is available. And I mean everything
No, sorry, I have not watched the Death of a Beauty Queen. All I have seen to date is  the recent 5th estate show and I have skimmed through this thread.

You say the coroner is dead and  it is near impossible to   find out about TOD and mode of death etc..
I ask: Is it not a matter of  writing the chief coroner for that province and request a copy of the autopsy report? I know this has been done by authors and private investigators in other cases and even back in the 60's when things weren't as open as they are today.
Failing that, I think you might be successful obtaining the  needed documents through the  Freedom of Information Act(FOIA). It costs $5.00.  I obtained the conviction record of an individual that way.

I appreciate your  offer to give me info...Maybe you could just point me to the most authoritative web sites, the ones that  give the most accurate info.

As for other ideas, not at the moment, sorry. Like I said, I need to familiarize myself with the case first. After that I am sure I will have a slew of ideas :-)

DigDig

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #221 on: October 27, 2008, 11:56:41 AM »
Hi DigDig; nice to meet you.
I 'm kind of dwelling on two things that are a little different....first of all, I think a guy or couple of guys could come along.... see this overly attractive female, and within minutes, get aroused enough to rape her (and depending on whether that guy's already primed or on the hunt for such - let's say someone that just gotten left an unwilling date, or for whatever reason, didn't get to complete their mission - or someone who just got turned on at the movies for example) could have raped Alexandra within a few minutes and killed her - in another minute.  ....let's assume they grabbed a broken tree branch or sharp board, or even a tool that coincidentally was laying around, and quickly and furiously started digging at the already composed damp--from-the-winter ground.... (I was an avid gardener most of my life and could dig into compost and plant a fair size shrub within minutes that time of year) .... it could happen if half an hour ... especially if there were two of them. ---OR---- what if they just covered her with leaves and/or debris and came back hours later with a shovel and did a better job.  Isn't that possible! 

Lostlinganer, nice to meet you too!
It is important in cases like this that we don't let our hunches and feelings take over. "Feeling" that things might be like this or that, without anything to back it up usually ends up in futility. I am not criticizing you; rather I am trying to show how cool heads prevail and what type of investigating offers the best results.
That said, sure it could have happened the way you are thinking, we don't really know do we?
But what about the likelihood that it happened  that way?
Take the digging equipment for example... tree branch or sharp board.. Do you realize how hard it would be to dig with those implements? You would never get done..the dirt you loosened would just slide off the branch and back in the hole.
Right now, with the scant info we have, it looks like  a shovel was used.

That the killer(s) came back later do do a 'better job' doesn't seem that plausible. For one thing, a killer would take a huge chance to come back to the scene of the crime. Sexually motivated crimes are usually impulse-driven and the perp leaves in a state of near panic.
Also..he didn't do that much of a better job did he? She ended up buried in a shallow grave ; she had even managed to push one arm out of the grave.
Was there any evidence of leaves and debris in the immediate area?

Like I alluded to, these type of crimes are driven by  the perp's inner feelings  and his need for exerting violence. His main goal is the violence part. The  rape part is just one part of the whole violence scenario. It matters very little to  him whether or not the victim is good looking.

Unless we know about Alexandria's  life in detail..her friends, boy friends etc etc, it would be  speculative to  hypothesize that  she was killed by a jilted lover, or even one that she had turned down.

From what I know so far, it seems all  factors point to  one or more perps and  that it was a spur of the moment type crime. So far,  I am really leaning towards  2 perps, judging by the alleged time window that this crime was committed.

Keep thinking! Keep reading! One  person can only move a small pile of rocks. Together, we can move a whole mountain!

mauvelilac

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #222 on: October 27, 2008, 12:27:54 PM »
Quote from Dig Dig:"It is important in cases like this that we don't let our hunches and feelings take over. "Feeling" that things might be like this or that, without anything to back it up usually ends up in futility.

A lot of us on here are psychic but choose to remain quiet about that so that's where our "hunches and feelings" come into play. I'm the most vocal since I've attained the age of one half a century I don't feel the need to hide that fact anymore. Psychics are anything BUT futile. A lot of famous psychics have solved cases where the police have failed. So, don't be so quick to dismiss "hunches and feelings". You're a cop or some kind of detective or pi aren't you?  I find those are the ones that are usually dismissive of hunches and feelings" We've done just fine on here with our theories and hunches and feelings and I don't think there's any member on this panel who needs to be taught "investigating" techniques. Thank you very much.

lostlinganer

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #223 on: October 27, 2008, 02:00:01 PM »
Dig Dig; it's clear to me that you haven't spent much time "digging" or else you live in a region where the ground is continuous hardpack.
Take the digging equipment for example... tree branch or sharp board.. Do you realize how hard it would be to dig with those implements? You would never get done..the dirt you loosened would just slide off the branch and back in the hole.
To the contrary my friend, I had a double lot property 80' x 50' (give or take) on which I had all plant bed..... no grass or weed..... thousand of perenials planted to create a different appearance each seaon ....also had a double size greenhouse and the whole property had two feet of cedar and compost topping....years of hard work, lugging seaweed and manure, composting, traveling the province for new and exciting plants.  I could dig a  two feet deep grave in that yard anywhere in minutes with less than a broken branch or a piece of board.
That's why I asked about the earth in that spot where the body was found....I was thinking:
1.  machines had been digging deep (severing heavy tree roots within feet of the body)
2. machines can't get close enough with the backfill-tamping to pack that particular spot down.
3. anywhere there's years of leaf decomposition, you can often dig with your hands once the heavy roots have been severed - so you could turn up a lot with a bar of pole and pull it all lose by hand.

That the killer(s) came back later do do a 'better job' doesn't seem that plausible. For one thing, a killer would take a huge chance to come back to the scene of the crime. Sexually motivated crimes are usually impulse-driven and the perp leaves in a state of near panic.
Also..he didn't do that much of a better job did he? She ended up buried in a shallow grave ; she had even managed to push one arm out of the grave.

why not, in a panic, wouldn't I just push a pile of leaves and dirt over the body if it was in a gully adjacent to a resent pile of earth left by yesterdays digging (which got left among the shrubs and leaves because the machine couldn't get that close) the gully would be a possible few feet deep and the earth and leaves would do the job....instant grave.
and -why not go back later hours later, when all are asleep, to make sure she's covered enough? probably couldn't sleep anyway!
also DigDig, who's not much of a physical digger:Unless we know about Alexandria's  life in detail..her friends, boy friends etc etc, it would be  speculative to  hypothesize that  she was killed by a jilted lover, or even one that she had turned down. where did I suggest above, that she was killed by a jilted lover or even turned one down.  Did you read my post or just scim it?  I suggested a culprit who may have gotten turned on minutes before by his girlfriend (an unable to get any further due to place, situation, respect...whatever) and saw this georgous unsuspecting girl alone and vulnerable....or he could have gotten turned on at the movies for example. ??? ???
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 02:03:49 PM by lostlinganer »

DigDig

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Re: Alexandra Wiwcharuk - May 18, 1962 ? Age 23 ? Murdered ? Saskatoon
« Reply #224 on: October 27, 2008, 02:01:30 PM »
Hi there mauvelilac,
 Since you are a psychic, you should maybe have detected that when I wrote about hunches and feelings, I was referring to  those of us who do not have the gift of ESP. Notice, I call it a gift. In other words, I am very favourably turned toward those of us who have this extra sense, bestowed upon a chosen few. In fact I did visit a psychic once, in regards to another case I was  working on. She did provide  some clues, although fuzzy, I did get a few helpful hints.
Never once did I accuse psychics of being 'futile'.

No, I am not a cop, or 'some kind of detective'  or pi. Sorry to inform you but your ESP seemed to fail you again.

I  would agree that, yes, cops usually are dismissive of hunches and feelings, unless this hunch  is the result of an investigation. However, they are not totally closed to  people with the gift. I know, because I had the opportunity to
talk with a homicide investigator turned PI. He was most interested in hearing about my visit with the psychic.

When I wrote to lostlinganer, of course I spoke out from the concept of regular investigation where 99 times out of 100, results come from  investigation as we commonly know it. I had no inkling that he/she might be  a psychic

There is room in this world for both "kinds" if we endeavor to work together and try to avoid  crass words  such as those detected in your message.

We must remember: We are here not to compete in any way, but to find out who killed Alexandria. Peace!