Author Topic: Noreen Greenley - 13 - Missing - September 14, 1963 - Bowmanville, ON  (Read 150133 times)

TLG

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I was doing a bit of research on the computer about D Allison's farm...Does anyone know or recall if he had any children...I did find an Allison's farm in Georgetown Ontario...I will post the link...Just a thought....

http://www.ontariofarmfresh.com/regions.php?region=Greater+Toronto+Area

Late Night TV

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Re: Noreen Greenley - 13 - Missing - September 14, 1963 - Bowmanville, ON
« Reply #316 on: September 21, 2013, 08:02:27 PM »
[Quote from Joyce Greenley - one of the sisters of the missing person]

Back in 1963 when old #2 Hwy and Waverly Rd used to meet,that is where Noreen got into that car on that night. The car then headed west on #2 from the bus stop ( according to the neighbors across the street ) till it got to Maple Grove Rd where it turned south. When it reached Bloor St, it then went West again on Bloor till it reached Holts Rd where it then turned North, went passed our house and continued North of Hwy 2. I think the person driving the car took this route to avoid detection but didn't count on Noreen seeing someone she would recognize. She saw me, Darleen Goodwin and Sharon Mothersill walking south on the East side of Holts Rd.

That's probably why she grabbed the wheel which caused the car to swerve toward us forcing us to jump into the ditch. Noreen was screaming as the car went on by to try and let us know it was her in that car so that we could run home and get help for her. Dad & Harvey [brother] immediately got into the car to try and catch up to them but to no avail. When dad & Harvey got back to the house, dad called the Police.


Comments:

This seems to be the only credible lead in the case.

Interestingly, Joyce Greenly, Darleen Goodwin and Sharon Mothersill, followed by Harvey Greenley Sr. and Harvey Greenley Jr.  became aware that Noreen was in peril several hours before it would otherwise have become known. It is unfortunate the girls did not have the presence of mind to get the license plate of the vehicle.

It is worthy of note, that this lead also suggests that Noreen knew she was in peril at the time the car drove by her sister and her friends walking along Holts Road. Ironically, it seems possible that the car was initially heading toward the Greenley home.

Bonnie and Gary's responses may seem odd but this may have more to do with feeling ashamed for getting caught doing something 'immoral' during the period of time that preceded Noreen's disappearance, rather than they're being complicit with any criminal involvement.

The police did not reveal this 'drive-by' lead to the public at first, likely because doing so could have spooked the driver of the car and caused him to take steps to conceal evidence and cover his tracks. In any event, the driver would certainly have become spooked after he became aware that Joyce, Darlene and Sharon saw Noreen in his car and it appears he did take steps to conceal evidence and cover his tracks.

This seems like an abduction by a serial predator. The suspect is likely known to police. The person could be in jail or deceased.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 04:27:53 AM by Late Night TV »


capeheart

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My thoughts and prayers to the Greenley family. Noreen had to be afraid there that night waiting for the bus. It is so sad that her friend and boyfriend did not wait with her until the bus came. I know even when I was older and we were in our city here, my friends waited with me until the 11:00 o'clock bus. I never ever waited alone for the bus and this was on a city street, with lights and everything and people walking, but we never waited alone.  I dare say this was an unusual place she was waiting and she would be alone there, sad that had to happen. She may have been snatched right off the road, just like that. Likely the same as Amber Kirwan, who was murdered two years ago in New Glasgow. She was waiting for her boyfriend to pick her up and was abducted and murdered and three week later, her body was found in a graveyard, she had been brutally murdered. Her killer was found and he is now serving time. Solving crimes today, there are more forensic tools available and the police are trained better to deal with such crimes. Even after all this time, I hope the family does get some answers or even have a viable suspect. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

york3404

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If anyone has physical features of Noreen could you please send me a private message. We don't have much to go on and we have been having issues getting in contact with surviving family members.Thank You

joyce

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Does this help?

Logical

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Here are more physical details for Noreen from the link Leonagleant posted

Sweater  Pink
Jewelry  Metal, Silver, Aluminum, Stainless Steel, thin necklace with blue pendant
Jeans  Black
Purse  Dark Blue, dome fastener, change purse with $0.70 inside
Blouse  White
Scar Right Knee, Centre of knee cap
Other Left Chest, Brown mole left breast
Mark Left Knee, birth mark
Other Nose, freckles


Missing Since   September 14, 1963
Year of Birth   1950
Age at Disappearance   13
Gender   Female
Bio Group   White
Eye Colour   Blue
Hair   Brown , Shoulder
Teeth   Good
Height   157cm / 61 inches
Weight   45kg / 99lb
Build   Slender/Thin
Complexion   Light/Fair



Is this what you were asking for York3404?

I'm not sure how it is known how much money she had in her purse?

Logical

 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 06:14:54 AM by Logical »

jobo

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After reading back through this thread, I notice talk about skating and something about Noreen talking about a skater, a girl from Alberta.    Made me think of Kelly Cook from Standard, Alberta that went missing and found murdered in Chin Lake back in 1981.  That murder was not solved either.  Could the perp have gone from Ontario to Alberta?    In the Kelly Cook murder, the perps original target was a figure skater, but she was not available to "babysit" and gave Kelly's number to the perp.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 06:17:50 AM by jobo »

york3404

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Thank you logical that dose help.
I have a photo of her but I have no physical features to go on. The only thing that would be an amazing help would be to locate a photo of her parents or either parent. Reasoning if Noreen was held captive for some time she could have aged and I may be able to put together an age progressed sketch of her. With that we may be able to match her to a Jane Doe that very well is just waiting to be ID. After much investigation in this case and many many many searches. Without putting to much out there as it's only my conclusions, but I have been able to match some things that very well may point to her being abducted that night and she could have been held for some time years maybe even. At this age everything about her would have changed, her body shape, height, depending how well she was cared for very well would have changed her body type slender or obese depending on what her abductors goal were.She may have or may not have given birth ect. This would all depend on how long she was held for or even if she escaped.  She very well could have been taken anyplace especially since in 1963 our road ways  were just getting started. We barley had a 401 and trans Canada hwy was nothing like it is today.   
If anyone knows the family and can contact them pls let them know I have been trying to get in contact with them since our last conversations. :)

debbiec

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There are at least two members here that are part of the Greenley family. I'm sure you know that Joyce, who responded to your request by posting the picture above, is a sister. Perhaps one of these two members could help with a picture of the parents? Have you tried reaching them by pm?

Logical

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A couple of other questions regarding the car she was seen in, potentially a ford prefect 1957 -1959 model, was it a left or right hand drive, when she passed Joyce and friends was Noreen on your side of the car, or on the opposite side, a witness account and car identification said it was this model and blue metallic?

What time did she pass you on the road? What direction was the car headed ( was the car headed toward you or came from behind you) Why were all of the kids out and about walking at midnight, were the parents worried, what time was Noreen expected home?  I grew up in the country and always had a curfew, even if we were just out and about and at 13, I was not allowed out that late on my own?  I know times have changed since then, but just thinking out loud.

The only left hand ford perfects were made in Canada, all other models made in Australia etc were right hand drive. If it is left, there would be less car owners to search from that time? Hundreds of thousands of these cars were made.

Although it is stated that the Anglia and poplar were similar models of ford cars in that era, and when you think back to the Paul Bernardo case, the witness saw a camero or something but that was inaccurate, colour was correct make and model was not.

Did Joyce or her friends recognize the car? Did anyone in the family know someone with a similar car?  Had they ever seen this car around town, before or after her disappearance? The witness (neighbour of Bonnies watching the bus stop) who told the car description and make said she got in the car and sat close to the driver.

I do not want to be hurtful to any of the Greenly family but the suicide of the brother is very troubling with the few details mentioned of it. Why more than 22 years later would he say where to find her remains and then commit suicide.  Was there more to the story he told, it is hard to fathom that Harvey would not have tried to ask more questions, understand how he knew this and why tell now? Did Gary say it was Dave Allison? How did he get brought into the situation?

One post made a statement that it was not a good time for Noreen at home, is this true, would she have gone off with this person intentionally, was Noreen really yelling for help, or was she just trying to yell and say hi, did the driver swerve or did Noreen grab the wheel?  If you know that Noreen made the car swerve then you must have been able to see into the car, did you see what the driver was wearing, did he have a hat on? The witness I mention above said he had on a hat.

Sorry a ton of questions here, hope I did not upset anyone, I only want to see if we can start new conversations here and not rehash what we think we know.

Thanks
Logical

Logical

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Sorry cannot get this off my mind today, question for York3404, I am under the impression you are law enforcement and wonder if you have seen the original police reports, was it ever mentioned about the car and Joyce's sighting? I know I read it was kept quiet so not to scare off the perp, but why would they not report on this, it was too crucial of a lead not to share with the public and see who may know someone or acquaintance with that car? Four years later when Marrianne Shuett was abducted they put out the car details immediately?

Another thought, if Noreen had planned to run away, possibly Bonnie knew and this is why she was acting in the manner she was? I remember around 15, life was so in your face and so emotional and dramatic, we thought we were mature and knew better than adults, but we were thinking with an immature mind.  I am skeptic to think Bonnie was involved in her disappearance, a witness saw her at the bus stop and get in a car. Bonnie was more interested in her boyfriend that evening, ( understandable at 15, maybe parents were to be home soon and she did not have much time left to fool around with him before they got home)but I doubt that she was watching out the window to see her friend get into a car or onto a bus.

I remember when Cameron Marche went missing and I had the detectives visit me, I was 10 or 11, it freaked me out scared me to the core, someone had told police I saw him at the killbride store. I had not; just another kid with a similar shirt on ( it had a monkey on it). When they spoke to me all I could do is say no I had not and then cried for days.  I felt like I was being accused of something, I was not but at a young age you interpret things differently. I thought they thought I was lying because they kept asking if I was sure and so many questions I did not know answers to. It got back to school mates that I was questioned and the rumours were going in all directions, so I can understand Bonnie at 15 and her reactions that have been posted here.

Logical

jellybean

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2thBYi7KXA - 1958 model

This is a British car. Did we have them in Canada.  (Left hand drive?)

JB

york3404

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Okay Everyone I have to admit I don't normally do this, but to be honest I have gotten a lot more information from everyone here working with us to solve this case. I can't tell you why I am posting this but I will tell you we believe we have made a connection with another girl that went missing in the 60s not far from where Noreen went missing. With this abduction two men seen a car and a good script of the man. I really need to know if any of you know weather this hat looks similar to the one seen worn by the man that was spotted with Noreen. It's called a Fedora. Also man was seen driving a car similar to a Renault.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=fedora&tbm=isch&imgil=1HPTyB6cavxy2M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQYvuAR7WVmizJwN48u3WdSEgmRNkvRZCleZjtrar7cQm-8TgVYWg%253B466%253B382%253BC2dqP0HWepNbHM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fglee.wikia.com%25252Fwiki%25252FFile%25253AFedora.jpg&source=iu&usg=__uSnsdWvLznaQUb7tBPZ0hJwdgs0%3D&sa=X&ei=Gv23U-vWEefI8wHq6YHQDw&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQ9QEwBQ&biw=1920&bih=979#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=1HPTyB6cavxy2M%253A%3BC2dqP0HWepNbHM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb20131223063039%252Fglee%252Fimages%252F1%252F1e%252FFedora.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fglee.wikia.com%252Fwiki%252FFile%253AFedora.jpg%3B466%3B382

"Two workers driving home from the nearby American Motors plant saw a man in a dark blue Renault station wagon or a small or compact size European model, dark blue or black in color, with a chrome section across the back. This man was at the side of the road talking out of the window to a little girl in a red coat. One of the workers saw in his rear view mirror how the girl got into the car, which then drove straight past her home." End quote this is from the other missing girl case. I don't want to put her name as to alarm ppl but the OPP aren't whiling to listen yet so I really need your help.  I believe Noreen got into this car and this man is linked to both girls. I just made the connection at 3am this morning we are working around the clock on this. Please would anyone know as I know three girls seen the car that night with Noreen in it. I feel they look similar and ppl could have thought it was a Ford Prefect but it could it also have been a Renault that she got into.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Renault+car+1960s&tbm=isch&imgil=PV6KLU-qZMadHM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQc6SvbQxUtt-DMDVGC_Uih30fI95JVDFBXCmv5-17kiihEYuo8%253B500%253B317%253BJPMTV7kK74lgJM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.creativecloseup.com%25252Febay-watch-1960s-renault-dauphine-car&source=iu&usg=__yBuG_XrW4V0AOpqnNNum9TuleXo%3D&sa=X&ei=X_y3U5KnOsSMqAaonoCwDw&ved=0CCwQ9QEwAg&biw=1920&bih=979#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=PV6KLU-qZMadHM%253A%3BJPMTV7kK74lgJM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.creativecloseup.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F04%252Fb58aa__6a00d83451cbb069e2017d42a78571970c-800wi.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.creativecloseup.com%252Febay-watch-1960s-renault-dauphine-car%3B500%3B317

THANK YOU EVERYONE YOU HAVE ALL BEEN A PART OF THIS CONNECTION. I will not say who sent me a PM about the hat bothering you but your message gave me goosebumps and I know when I get them it's a connection I can not explain. Please if you think this man could be the man involved in both cases and this hat and car very well match what was seen with Noreen that night. Also I will post the link in the cases once I get a response from this message. THANK YOU AGAIN EVERYONE