Author Topic: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach  (Read 182520 times)

capeheart

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #450 on: March 13, 2013, 05:50:48 PM »
The whole idea certainly does not look like Penny went missing on her own. I believe if she was not dressed for outside walking a dog in March, I really don't think she'd be out with her housecoat on. Maybe just to quickly take the dog in, but walking the dog in her housecoat, no. I mean we have to be realistic and even think of what you would do yourself. I mean I won't even go on my doorstep in winter with my slippers on. I have to wear outside footwear just to go on the step, so I won't slip or get my feet wet and that's only a couple of steps to go. She may have planned to meet someone at another location, but this person could have found out where she lived and came there when she totally unexpected them. I say that Penny was surprised by someone and from there, I really don't know what could have happened. The police must have knowledge of her phone records for that week and who she had been talking to. I would go back to the police for information if I was Penny's family or friend, get to the bottom of what happened to this woman. Too much mystery here for an accident, just doesn't add up. :o :o :o :o :o :o

Logical

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #451 on: March 13, 2013, 06:33:58 PM »
Sorry cape, but have you ever experienced a hot flash, I have and have stripped and stepped outside to cool off, so I think it may not be odd to step out the door without proper attire.

Logical

eyeswideopen

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #452 on: March 13, 2013, 06:57:31 PM »
I agree with that logical or she might has often taken the dog out to the bathroom in her housecoat after all she had no neighbors in her building so why not , who is gonna see you.  I know I have taken my dog out in yard in my house coat often. Just a thought. I agree that some one suprised her though. I dont believe she fell in that water either, or had she of she would have surfaced by now surely. Some one knows something I am thinking.

Concerned

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #453 on: March 13, 2013, 08:19:57 PM »
Penny use to walk the dog from her door which faced the river, then along the back of the house where there is a parking lot before you get to the road. She would take the dog there to potty since the garbage bin was located close by and she could clean up after the dog. Unfortunately it is right by the main road.

She could walk the dog across the road to the mail boxes to check on the mail. And, she was known to walk even further to the beach she enjoyed walking daily.

They say the weather was ever changing that week. It would snow hard, then during the day the sun would shine bright and melt most of it away. The river water was up towards the land level because of all the ice that was melting. They say the walkway could be deceiving because when it snows, then melts, then snows again and freezes there is a layer of ice under the newly fallen snow. But, this was not new to Penny she lived in Wasaga for over 30 years, mostly by the river.

I still believe she would have surfaced if she had misadventure. No signs, no boots, no housecoat. Surely, as close as the dog was to her, the dog would have went in the river with her. If she had fallen in, I can't help but think her dog would have jumped in to try to save her, too.

When I learned that she would walk in her housecoat for blocks to the beach, I was taken aback. But those from the area say that it is not unusual for her to do that in the off summer season because the town is so small and cozy that they don't have the concerns of the big cities. But then again, the snow mobilers were in town.

The dog had the walking leash on. If she had a health issue, I can't help but think the dog would have stayed by her side, as well.

I've been thinking about the dating site. It would be dumb of the new date to do something with all the paper trail and the expectations of the date. The date was the only new thing in her life lately. Other than those that helped her with her car troubles in the Walmart parking lot.  But, I'm concerned about the theory of someone on POF looking at her profile, and perhaps got a location or work concerns me. She didn't date many, but an old date being jealous of her new plans, concerns me. I can only believe that the LE would have a watch on her POF account. Being the investigation is open I don't think Marcus can be very forthcoming.

D1

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #454 on: March 14, 2013, 01:24:27 AM »
Marcus would only be able to say so much but its possibe Penny's original public profile might not be taboo. It was once public information and like the laws on news agencies, it can not be reversed and secreted so easily. The rest no doubt is off limits. There are Penny's friends too who helped post that info. Might help to eliminate some nagging suspicions and possibilities. checking off the list.. 

The dog being on a leash says a fair bit too. Doubful anything happened at the home. Seems she initially left willingly on her own at that point. As said, she liked walking and it was part of her pattern. If an accidental occurance with water was a viable option, I believe the natural reaction is to grab for and and cling to any rope availabe. And as C says-
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I still believe she would have surfaced if she had misadventure. No signs, no boots, no housecoat. Surely, as close as the dog was to her, the dog would have went in the river with her. If she had fallen in, I can't help but think her dog would have jumped in to try to save her, too.


Our patterns and who sees them? We have an identified route that may have been a fairly regular ocurance, used frequently possibly near the same time? From where could that be viewed? Who would have known and seen?  What was that parking lot used for? How deserted was that area that time of nite?

Logical

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #455 on: March 15, 2013, 07:01:14 PM »
Interesting weather for this time.

Environment Canada
www.ec.gc.ca

capeheart

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #456 on: March 16, 2013, 02:16:40 PM »
Logical, yes, I know what you mean. But I just open a windows and open the door and stick my head out. And there is no way in hell that I would step on the ground in my night clothes and especially if I was around water. I lived by the ocean, not directly by it, but knew enough that you did not go near the shore or wharf when it was freezing temps, because everything is icy. I am sure that Penny knew that about icy conditions around water. Of course, she may have ran after the dog, but wasn't the dog tied outside??? And the dog would have been in the water too, if she went in the water. So it doesn't add up for me too much that she died in that way. I mean wouldn't a slipper have been found on the shore or some clothing or something, but as I understand there was nothing found. I'd like to see the inside of her apartment as it was when the police entered it. I can't remember if there are any photos here or not. Still not 100% that it was an accident. :( :( :( :( :( :(

lostlinganer

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #457 on: March 16, 2013, 10:04:08 PM »
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So it doesn't add up for me too much that she died in that way. I mean wouldn't a slipper have been found on the shore or some clothing or something, but as I understand there was nothing found.

exactly... as though it were an abduction!  .... a crime of opportunity! or an unscheduled necessary event!  because whoever did this, didn't even have the foresight to throw a piece of clothing along the water to make it appear that she ended up in the lake by accident.  No way could something not have shown up that week... or even months down the road. ... something would have come loose and surfaced.  As far as we know nothing ever did.  And it being a small close community, everybody knows everything; folks had to have been watching for "even the smallest trace of attire, if not a body" for months after. 

Concerned

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #458 on: March 16, 2013, 10:28:57 PM »
Her house didn't show any signs of forced entry. Her house was tidy. Her clothes newly folded in the clothes basket. Her bed made. Nothing was amiss or out of the ordinary except a chair. She has some dishes in the sink. A couple of wine glasses. But, Penny liked her wine and would have a glass from time to time.

When I think of the description that was given of the inside her house, I don't know why but I think of RW. I've always wondered if he was passing through town then. Or, visiting the area. He was supposedly studying French at the time. I wonder if he vacationed in Wasaga at all. Did he like snowmobiles?

If she fell into the river with her housecoat and boots, I can't help but think one would surface at some point.Or at least bee seen in the underwater searches.

I remember walking the property. It was a warm day that day. Almost too warm in my winter jacket. Sun was coming down, snow nearly melted (as you can see in the pictures). They had said it was crazy weather. Snow hard, melt the next. On warm days it was sunny and beautiful.  I know it had melted because she told a co-worker she was afraid that the water level would be up to the bottom of her door, she was worried about her dog being in the house if the river did come up on land. Then it snowed hard, possibly leaving ice under the new snow. Slippery in the ug type boot she wore. It must have been warm as she didn't take her winter coat out with her. I don't think she intended to be out for long, just dog potty time and a quick smoke break. Which then leads to opportunity, again.

D1

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #459 on: March 20, 2013, 11:03:13 PM »
And therein lies the quandary; how does one know if an accident or otherwise? The dating service and Police should have exposed and outed anyone with a fixation on Penny so that seems ruled out. The last day car breakdown could have been a lure but seems if anything was to happen over that it would have been earlier on the way home or soon after. Penny seems to have left her home to do normal things she did that nite and most every nite, not someone stopping by. By the sounds of things she didn't have an evil ex or a stalker or any reported incidents of anyone acting untoward. The workers where she lived should have been working for registered contractors paychecks etc and therefore identities known and checked out. Previous tenants should all be known.

By the sounds of the weather, snow, ice, she wouldn't have been going far. Whatever happened likely happened quite close by. Was the river that treacherous so close by that it was even possible to be swept away? Cape asked about the dog being tied up and I from what I recall was running around dragging a leash when found and someone else tied it up? Someone slipping may let loose a leash as feet flew up in the air? Q.. did anyone come forward and claim to have found the dog loose and admitt they tied it up?

Although one would think or hope that some article of clothing would be found if an accident or slip; would it be at all possible not to be? Rubber boots are notoriously slippery on wet and ice conditions. Some float some don't. Lack of evidence in this regard is not conclusive either way imo. If an attack, why not do it at her home? RW didn't hide his victims well and jogged to scout near where he lived in his comfort zone. He used the victims homes. If a perp is involved, seems he would have to have lived or stayed or parked very close by. Penny's actions wearing a housecoat out at nite could be misinterpreted and could attract the wrong sort of attention.

The Police concentrated efforts on that river for a reason. Seems she should have been found if there but wasn't.. It may take finding more victims under similar circumstance to make the case against an accident. So far that doesn't seem to be apparent. And therein lies the quandary. Tough one C... :-\
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 12:38:08 PM by D1 »

Logical

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #460 on: March 21, 2013, 06:43:31 PM »
I think concerned mentioned Penny often walked the couple of blocks to the beach.

If a person slipped in Georgian Bay at Wasaga Beach during stormy times, would they be pulled in the under tows and embedded in the sandy bottom, or taken out to open waters, would they be found? If yes after how long and where (currents)?


D1

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #461 on: March 23, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »
According to Concerned in a previous post, the currents were quite well known and predictable which was why the Police focused in on certain areas very quickly. Penny was a walker but seems the water levels had risen dramatically such that Penny was afraid they would reach her door step. So the terrain that she was accustomed to may have been changed and been made dangerous by the rising water and the snow and ice covering.

What currents or undertow would be at play at the exact spot is an interesting question. If the water levels had risen so that the beach was cutoff and were threatening to rise to the door step, should be fairly shallow water close by and not far from her door?

I do not know the exact spot where Penny lived in relation the water levels at the time but the map shows a river to one side of the beach which would have significant more flow than the bay waters. 
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=wasaga+beach&hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=np&hnear=Wasaga+Beach,+Simcoe+County,+Ontario,+Canada&t=m&z=12

Patterns to this sort of disappearance seem rare but worth watching for. A recent example over in kitchener- single female, close to the same age, lived alone, dog walker.
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=6724.msg100963;topicseen#msg100963
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« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 05:38:31 PM by D1 »

Concerned

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #462 on: March 24, 2013, 07:39:53 AM »
The water was a concern from the beginning, because if she fell in, they wanted to find her before the current would take her out to the bay. The other concern is the river soot. If she would remain lodged, say on a dock post, or with debry, she could as time goes by be covered fairly easily with river soot. Also, I guess river beds have "bowls" in the bottom where once a body moves below surface, the body gases will make the body resurface, before going to the bottom of water as part of the decomposition process. When the body does sink to the bottom it will often fall into a river bowl.  These bowls are dips in the river bottom that the water current creates and are known to be where bodies can be recovered within weeks of a drowning.

However, in winter and icy conditions and with a fast flowing river that goes into a lake or bay, the concern is a body being swept under the top layer ice. It could get caught up in chucks of ice that are melting, cracking up and moving out to the lake. This would mean that the body wouldn't necessarily sink to the river bed.

The Georgian Bay is known to have a build up of ice that comes out from the river. Even once the weather gets warm it takes a while for the ice to thaw, but once it does the body likely would sink at or near the place that it was caught in the built up ice. This is not necessarily a given as there are lots of places the body can dislodge from the ice in the process of moving down the river and out into the bay.

Like the gentleman that is rumored to have fallen or jumped off a bridge in Wasaga, his body traveled down the river with the currant and surfaced along the Georgian Bay within weeks of disappearing. So, when the warm weather comes around it is best to search the beach for such a possibility. 

It was told to me that it is easier to 1) find the body within hours, days of a disappearance, 2) It would be best if they could find her before she travels out into the bay, 3) the river has a lot of soot and sand and debry traveling it so the water searchers have very low visibility and most of their efforts had to be tag teaming eachother and scouring the edges, sides and bottom of the river close to the perimeter and often with hands, sticks and other utensils that are used to detect bodies when low visibility, 4) they checked the river and underneath the ice in the event she could have gotten caught up, 5) they had a search team with a member that was very aware of the areas in which debry got backed up and they went to those places several times to check, and 6) they had a plane search above to try to detect a body from an aerial point of view, granted the plane would not have been able to tell if she was caught in the ice chunks built up in the Georgian Bay, but it checked the river beds, the beach areas, and 7) several times family, friends, and onland OPP walked each side of the river bed and the beach perimeter to see if she could be found near land.

They had hoped they could find her sooner than later because once the body settles in the bottom of the bay, it would be harder for them to find.

No sign of boots, housecoat or Penny.

*Sorry if I sound detached. I think sometimes you have to be to look into options. I don't want the family of the man found to think I was being disrespectful. Searching into the water options was not easy for me to do.

Logical

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #463 on: March 24, 2013, 09:07:42 AM »
I was thinking if the river was coming to her door step that Penny would have opted to take the dog walking at the beach not the river, meaning she walked the few streets away from the river toward Wasaga beach, if she were to have fallen, pulled into the more open waters on the shore ( not the river side ) where then would currents etc take her?

I believe the river was at her door and Wasaga beach runs parallel to her home and the river. In other words her home sits between the river and the beach. River is three steps and Wasaga beach would have been two to three blocks in the opposite direction.

Logical

Concerned

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Re: FOUND - Penny Warne - 57 - Missing - Feb 11, 2009 - Wasaga Beach
« Reply #464 on: March 24, 2013, 12:26:26 PM »
Ahh. I see what you are saying. This might help.

She was worried that if the river rose it would come up onto the property but her fears were unfounded. It was confirmed that the river never rose that high. So, from the river to her door it is at least 18 to 20 feet. There is a walkway. Theoretically, I could lay on the ground 2.5 body lengths and still not hit the water yet. If I fell on the walkway I would have to body roll a couple times to get into the water, and the ledge prevents  a person from getting too close. The gravel is not fun to walk on. So, chances are she didn't slide into it willingly.  Besides, many from the area will tell you you can stand up in the water at some points. It really isn't that deep in the river.

The picture below was taken about 4 to 6 weeks after she went missing. You can see how low the water level was then, as well.  Penny lived in the bottom unit. Her door faced the river. She lived there for around five years and knew how to navigate that walkway. They say the river has currents, but you can see how calm it looks.

The second picture shows the dumpster at the end of the parking lot. She would walk the dog to it to potty. The road, as you can see, is right by the dumpster and a woman in a housecoat would be visible to the cars traveling the road especially at that time of the year when the leaves were not really on the trees. The road is one of the main roads, and one of the only roads in and out of Wasaga Beach area.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:32:28 PM by Concerned »