Author Topic: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West  (Read 180217 times)

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #300 on: August 20, 2010, 04:34:15 PM »
Hi Vern, thanks.  I didn't even attempt to use the quote button as I don't have much luck with it and things seem to get screwed up.  And not bad typing for a person typing blind..I gotta hand it to you and as well for filling in the blanks re  the questions.  I feel as if you are a very decent person out for the same answers we all are:  who murdered Kathleen and why he hasn't been caught? 

It totally fails me that the former Trenton Police force messed this up so miserably.  But I have always felt and have so many civilians as well that the former force couldn't catch a cold.  But the civilians here say very little, if at all publically.  I feel for the most part it's a result years of "this is how it's always been"

I don't know the MacVicar family nor Kathleen's mother.  From my understanding of of the circumstances; Kathleen went to live with her uncle, a military person, who lived at the PMQ's.  One would think that given her uncle  was military, he would have advised her mother, Colleen of the correct channels to contact.

You mentioned of places, the bar Rumours.  I didn't know it at the time of Kathleen's murder..had never been there.  Currently, or since I was last there in '04 it's a military watering hole.     

golanvern

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #301 on: August 21, 2010, 08:45:07 AM »
I don't know the MacVicar family nor Kathleen's mother.  From my understanding of of the circumstances; Kathleen went to live with her uncle, a military person, who lived at the PMQ's.  One would think that given her uncle  was military, he would have advised her mother, Colleen of the correct channels to contact.

You mentioned of places, the bar Rumours.  I didn't know it at the time of Kathleen's murder..had never been there.  Currently, or since I was last there in '04 it's a military watering hole.     

I can't speak for what Kathleen's uncle has or has not advised her mother. He may very well have advised her - he certainly would have been aware that the MPs don't investigate such things. I just know that if a body is found dumped on a farmer's land in a field somewhere ... no one would be expecting that farmer to be the one releasing info on the progress or status of the investigation and/or any suspects to the family of the murder victim. The very same thing is applicable here. Does that make sense now? I'm also quite sure that the CF would have said to her mother something to the effect of "you'll have to contact the local authorities for that info." That's not a 'brush-off', it's telling her where she needs to ask in order to obtain the answers she seeks.

Rumours has been in Trenton since at least 1990. It is a German Restaurant/Bar. At the time of Kathleen's murder it was very popular during the meal hours due to all us military types who enjoyed the meals due to our having served in CFB Lahr and Baden, Germany. Not many serving CF members have enough time-in to remember or to have served in Germany now. My niece lives and works in Trenton still (my husband and I are actually going there to visit with here today - I am currently posted in Kingston and he in Petawawa). She is 22 years old, vivacious, and always out ... I'll get her take on the bar scene & Rumours "after meal hours" these days because the couple times I was there during the evening after the restaurant portion closes, the attendees seemed to be mixed attendance - some short military haircuts, but many bearded & goateed types too (which rules out them being in the military).

Single military guys didn't live in Middleton Park PMQ area at the time of Kathleen's murder. Nor were there any SQs (Singles Quarters) located in the fenced in portion of the base-proper located east of RCAF road/north of highway 2 (we call that the "North side"). The SQs are located in the fenced and gated portion of the base proper that is located south of highway 2 and east of RCAF road (the "south side"). From Rumours to the gate at the south side to gain access back into their SQ barracks has to be about 2 to 3 Kms up hwy 2 towards Belleville --- a direct route from the bar-district to highway 2 gate (sidewalked the whole way) with would have someone from there absolutely not needing to be crossing through the woods to either get to Middleton Park PMQs or any civilian housing located on the other side of the woods. Kathleen was found on the other side of the woods from Zellers. The "Transient Quarters" (barracks for those who are deploying overseas, or on course) are also located on the South Side ... well up Hwy 2 and within the same gated and fenced area. Thus, any pers staying there at the time would have had no need to be cutting through the woods to go North. There are absolutely no singles or transient quarters located north of Hwy 2 (Middleton Park or the North side of the base).

Thus, I am convinced that the perpetrator of this crime, if military, was a married guy (or a divorced guy with kids in his custody) who would be living in the PMQs. BUT ... I don't think the perpatrator was military at all. I'm actually convinced that the perp is not, nor has he ever been, military.

Here's why: Extremely early in this case, the QW police ruled out any military connection and any connection to a "known" acquaintance of kathleen. I think they were able to do this precisely because her killer left a fingerprint (and hopefully DNA) at the scene. Since well before WWII, each and every one of us who joins the military is fingerprinted before we are sworn in and we are run through the system because we have secret/top secret security clearances etc. Those fingerprints are also required should we be killed in war or accident as means to provide posotive identification. Our security clearances are then run through again every 10 years at a minimum. Once fingerprinted, our prints remain on file and are accesible instantly by CFNIS (Canadian Forces National Investigation Service - you'll remember that it was CFNIS who aided the Russell Williams investigation and provided them the evidence to directly link RW to his crimes).

I believe that the killer left a print ... and that, due to her being found on military property, that print was immediately run by CFNIS who received no hits on a CF member - past or present. I also believe that any "known" acquaintances of Kathleen were quickly asked to provide print samples ... which ruled them out.

Hopefully, the LE also have a DNA sample, but even without - the perp of this crime obviously has no prior criminal record. If they were able to so quickly and flatout "rule out" any military connection (other than she was dumped on military land) --- they have something and that must be fingerprints as we CF members do not provide DNA samples as routine in our service; fingerprints we do though.

We are looking for a civilian. We are looking for a civilian who has no prior record. I hope he is found before he commits another atrocious and unforgiveable act such as this murder.

Anyway, must go wake up my husband - he has slept in long enough this morning; will pick up some batteries for my digicam and will attempt to snap some pics of the relevant areas I have written about today while I am in Trenton so you can all get a concept of distance, layout, how close this is to bars, stores, fast-food joints, paths through the woods, PMQs and civilian housing areas.

Vern

golanvern

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #302 on: August 21, 2010, 08:46:07 AM »
golanvern, regarding the typing disappearing upward, check the top of your toolbar for a box next to the "refresh button" - which is right next to the http: address bar.  It there's a little icon next to the refresh or stop icons, it is a "compatibility button" .... it helps to click that .... if there's not a compatibility button, you can add it, but I can't remember if it's in tools or internet options, or a google add on.  Maybe someone here can let us know; I can't remember where I got it, but it worked for me when I had that problem - and once you have it, it works in all sites.

It works!! Thank you so much!  ;D

jellybean

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #303 on: August 21, 2010, 02:03:35 PM »
Another Military bash. Seems no end to it. It has always been that way as far as I can remember.
And I have faced many unwarranted acts of discrimination by civilians, and mean minded comments by adults, simply because my Dad was in the military. The bases, are always mysterious places to civilians, in the townships. They wonder "what goes on there"? As a kid, we always had to prove that No, we were not delinquents, and No, our parents were not drunks.  An uphill battle.  But the military, still reaches out to Townships to show them that they are human like everyone else. Oh the lament, when a base is closed down! The money that is poured into the economy dries up.
Thanks for setting this straight.
Peace

capeheart

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #304 on: August 21, 2010, 02:59:52 PM »
Golanvern, you are just being so damned specific here, you know what I am getting at when I talk about a three block area. In city blocks, it would mean that if it is military base it would be the same distance. There is housing there and I have relatives that lived on a military base and visited them, here in Canada and in Germany. So just because you are military and you want to be just so specific about an area, you know what I am talking about. It doesn't take paragraphs and paragraphs to state a comment. Telling what you want to briefly is adequate. And I did not point out that it was a military person that committed the crime. It could have been done by a military person or someone visiting the area or living there temporarily. Kathleen was a guest of relatives and she was working in the area and so could have others been doing the same thing. We are giving comments. I am from the Cape Breton area and know of the MacVicar's wanting justice for their daughter's murder. I feel sorry for them and I feel their pain of wanting to get some answers, because it is now nine years and nothing has happened to find her killer. I know the police are doing the best they can. We hope there will be justice for Kathleen. RIP Kathleen and my thoughts go out to your family and friends whenever they remember you. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #305 on: August 21, 2010, 03:43:06 PM »
Jellybean, not certain if you are aware of the entire case and thread; it's a long one from first read and the information is sketchy..no one really paid attention to Kathleen's brutal murder until RW was charged with his " alleged" crimes.

I personally disagree with your perception this is military bashing but there have been many unanswered questions and various individuals,  ( former) LE as well as questionable ( former) municipal people, local media..one..our only  newspaper who have been under scrutiny...  In essence, it's the entire ball of wax, so to speak.

And yes, should CFB Trenton, ever close, the town would collapse as it's the major employer.  But CFB Trenton, will never relocate..far,far too much money has been spent here.   And in my opinion the civilians have finally realised this and refuse to be controlled any further.

Again and again I have heard the same reference from the military; "military family"...as with LE, RCMP, OPP, Firefighters, EMS it's a brotherhood.  Family says it all, it's not bashing..just self
explanatory.  There should be far more transparency and openness.

Another Military bash. Seems no end to it. It has always been that way as far as I can remember.
And I have faced many unwarranted acts of discrimination by civilians, and mean minded comments by adults, simply because my Dad was in the military. The bases, are always mysterious places to civilians, in the townships. They wonder "what goes on there"? As a kid, we always had to prove that No, we were not delinquents, and No, our parents were not drunks.  An uphill battle.  But the military, still reaches out to Townships to show them that they are human like everyone else. Oh the lament, when a base is closed down! The money that is poured into the economy dries up.
Thanks for setting this straight.
Peace

jellybean

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #306 on: August 21, 2010, 04:53:07 PM »
I am all for transparency and openness. One doesn't always get it, and this can cause a lot of problems.  I do not live close to Trenton, so I really shouldn't comment on how this case has been handled. I have read that the Police (civilian) are checking on every place that he has been posted. I was at Trenton many years ago, with my husband, passing through onto another base, and it was huge, even then. It was quick thinking local LE who caught him, according to the papers out here. I can imagine living so close to such a huge base, can be overwhelming, and I mean that sincerely. I live a civilian life now, close to a base just outside of Edmonton.  It is smaller than Trenton, and the soldiers and their families are well respected within the community.   The unfortunate thing about this whole mess, is that Colonel Williams worked closely with the surrounding towns, and  now, the trust has been lost. Should that have been the case here, we would have these feelings of betrayal as well. No doubt about it, this man has left many many victims, including the townships. What a loss.

golanvern

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #307 on: August 21, 2010, 05:26:52 PM »
Golanvern, you are just being so damned specific here, you know what I am getting at when I talk about a three block area. In city blocks, it would mean that if it is military base it would be the same distance. There is housing there and I have relatives that lived on a military base and visited them, here in Canada and in Germany. So just because you are military and you want to be just so specific about an area, you know what I am talking about. It doesn't take paragraphs and paragraphs to state a comment. Telling what you want to briefly is adequate. And I did not point out that it was a military person that committed the crime. It could have been done by a military person or someone visiting the area or living there temporarily. Kathleen was a guest of relatives and she was working in the area and so could have others been doing the same thing. We are giving comments. I am from the Cape Breton area and know of the MacVicar's wanting justice for their daughter's murder. I feel sorry for them and I feel their pain of wanting to get some answers, because it is now nine years and nothing has happened to find her killer. I know the police are doing the best they can. We hope there will be justice for Kathleen. RIP Kathleen and my thoughts go out to your family and friends whenever they remember you. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Nope. I am correcting a boatload of inaccuracies that are being bountied about in this thread as being `facts and factual`.  I feel sorry for them too; I am born and raised in Newcastle, NB. I too want justice for their daughters murder.

Someone earlier asked why my theory was ... I explained that and WHY. Sorry if you didn't like that. I say again ... we are lookign for a civilian suspect exactly for the reasons I stated earlier.

Let's say 3 square blocks is 1 square KM ... having been there yourself - you would understand then that Kathleen was recovered within a couple hundred metres of 2 bars, 4 civilian apartments buildings, a hundred or so civilian houses ... and about 20ish PMQs.

Widen your horizons ---

BTW, no in the the town of Trenton has lost respct for the military there. So sayeth the 50 or so some odd friends and relatives of mine who still live there.

RW did not kill Kathleen. Nor did any other CF member. Continuing to bring him up in this thread is NOT going to get her murder solved any quicker.

Justice for kathleen.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 05:29:00 PM by golanvern »

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #308 on: August 21, 2010, 06:03:54 PM »
I could be wrong, but something in my gut always told me RW had nothing to do with Kathleen's murder.  He would have stalked her; he would also have taken her somewhere for a period of time.  I strayed once to the perception that he may have used a near-by motel or cottage; but then I figured, there would have been records of his buying a room.  ...and I doubt he'd do that because his face was too well-known near and about.

I still believe the military protects it own, no matter what they do.  I'm talking from experience here.  I was privy to just how far this can go when a shy abused girl from CB, many years ago, was married to a military guy.... one who even booted his little child so hard, the child was air born into a wall, and left with permanent damage.  This young wife/mother pleaded to military police and others, during her months turned to years of abuse, and was rewarded with being carried off at one point to a psychiatric ward by the same military, because she made such accusations.  It wasn't until her father and brothers went to her rescue and brought her and her children back to CB that she was safe and the children had a chance to grow up.  That same man carried on that way for years, until ultimately he crashed a car at high speed while drunk.  Now he's the one with permanent damage.  There are a several other cases just as serious I know of, but wasn't personally privy to in a manner I can repeat, but one case was the body of a civilian woman being disposed of in a military "item" and left at the Sydney Police station back in the 70's.  This woman was involved with a military man, who also had a family.  His own daughters, after growing up, tried to have him charged with the murder, but we're completely ignored.  Not a thing was ever said or done about it.  It wasn't even made public.... there are many incidents as many people know.  Perhaps the military has cleaned up its act in that respect, but us older people know all about such cover-ups years back.

All in all Golanvern, you've made your point.  It's more than possible Kathleen could have been abducted and murdered by a drunken civilian on the spur of the moment - or by one she knew and trusted - or by a military person she knew and trusted.  It is what it is.  What is most disturbing is the fact that this happened in an everybody knows everybody, community.  ..... and of course, nobody knows anything!  >:(  That is just all too hard to believe. 

Somebody had a friend or relative come home with bloody clothes.  Somebody had someone around them completely scared shitless waiting for the other shoe to drop.  There is definitely at least one person in Trenton who knows of this aftermath imho.,  and they are keeping quiet!  Much worse is the fact that she lived and was found brutally assaulted and murdered on a military base.  Of course people are stretching the facts, giving opinions, recalling all they've heard about the military protecting their own.  When the killer is found, this will be settled.  Until then it is what is is.  You seem to be a decent upright good-living individual; so, I'm sorry you are left feeling socially bruised.  Peace my friend.

golanvern

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #309 on: August 21, 2010, 07:24:17 PM »
lostlingganer,

You`ll be pleased to know that the military has advanced wrt child and spousal abuse since the 70s right along with their counterparts in the civilian world.

Remember, back then --- no one talked about this stuff - military or civilian. Billy & Jane Stafford (Life with Billy) lived up the road from me during one of my dad`s postings to Gagetown NB. When, years later, Jane killed herself in that patking lot in Halifax ... I saw all the lights and sirens on my way home from work (I was posted in Halifax at the time, but lived in Shearwater) ... and I cried myself to sleep that night when I heard on the news exactly who it was that those lights and sirens had been for.

My dad and mom had sent me the book when I was serving with the UN (UNTAG) in Namibia, South Africa in 1989 to read. My dad, god rest his soul, had enclosed a short note about how scarey it was finding out what actually was occuring in the house 3 doors up from us all those years ago.

I also don`t feel socially bruised - I am quite willing to stick up for myself and my military brethern and correct inaccuracies and falsehoods. That`s fair right?  After all, I am in the military, where broadbased and inaccurate assessments can get innocent people killed. We are taught each and every day to be acurate and stick to the facts. Half a mil off on the compass dial can send a bomb into a village instead of the enemy.

Here`s a thread of today`s soldiers ... court martials and all. No one is civering up for anyone anymore. We`ve got beyond that almost 2 decades ago now.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=90764.0;attach=31021

You should also be quite pleased to know that I do not believe that "All you civilians MUST be trying to protect one of your "own civilians" who committed this crime and are covering up by insisting the military is covering up".

Is it somehow easier to believe that a military person did this?? I don`t know. I just know that we have all our fingerprints on file and that the OPP have RULED OUT any and all military involvement. They did that for some reason ... I`m still guessing that`s because they have run a fingerprint through CFNIS that was left at the scene and got diddly squat.

I move, that we fingerprint each and every Canadian citizen ... and DNA tests too. That way, no one should ever get away with murder ... and if one is innocent of crime and has nothing to hide they should have no worries about doing that. Perhaps there`s some merit in that --- given that the commission of all types of crime is significantly lower in the military population than in the civilian population and that we are well below the national average in all areas.

You`d never know that by reading some peoples judgemental and all-tarring posts though.


lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #310 on: August 21, 2010, 08:20:54 PM »
Quote
I don`t know. I just know that we have all our fingerprints on file and that the OPP have RULED OUT any and all military involvement. They did that for some reason ... I`m still guessing that`s because they have run a fingerprint through CFNIS that was left at the scene and got diddly squat.

Now assuming that CFNIS (excuse my ignorance) means Canadian Forces (National?guessing) I-?
(Security?guessing) I didn't know civilian police could do that. - nor that they would give them access.

These occurrences I speak of did happen back in the 70's and I do hope and pray that has changed with the military over the decades.  ..... I must say the civilian population didn't advance in that direction until there were noted cases where men had threatened spouses with death, the law looked the other way, and the same guys ended up making good their threat.  There are still incidents of this today .... right on this forum.  ... albeit, a lot of spouses have pulled in their horns and/or gotten slyer due to so much campaigning by women's groups etc.  Such threats now bring automatic jail time (zero tolerance) due to precedents set.... cetainly not due to taking an example from military awareness or practices regarding such.


Quote
You should also be quite pleased to know that I do not believe that "All you civilians MUST be trying to protect one of your "own civilians" who committed this crime and are covering up by insisting the military is covering up".
no problem gol.  I didn't think that for a second!  The civilian population is not close knit in that way at all ..... that is per sa.  (unless of course there's gang activity at the heart of crimes, or people with influential friends) .... then you'll see John Q Public public turn into "wise monkeys" pretty quick.    As far as the peers of most who break the law, I'd wager there are thousands out there who would call crimestoppers in an instant.  .... No way are the general public supportive of "the ordinary Joe".

Quote
Is it somehow easier to believe that a military person did this??
I don't know if you've read the whole thread on Kathleen, or maybe there's too much straying off topic in other related threads (such as threads on RW) but I don't think people find it easier at all to blame her death on a military person.  We've all commented and speculated plentyon lots other scenarios involving Kathleen's final evening on this earth.

Quote
Here`s a thread of today`s soldiers ... court martials and all. No one is civering up for anyone anymore. We`ve got beyond that almost 2 decades ago now.
At the risk of ruffling your already ruffled feathers,  I must be seeing fiction documentaries on the news??? I'd better start paying more attention.  I viewed some "absolutely frightening incidents of military "runamucks" being covered up - at least until such was made worldwide news by press coverage and/or leaks from other sources.

Even though we've already strayed from the subject of Kathleen, my apology for my part - (maybe need another thread comparing military and civilian life)
Quote
After all, I am in the military, where broadbased and inaccurate assessments can get innocent people killed. We are taught each and every day to be accurate and stick to the facts. Half a mil off on the compass dial can send a bomb into a village instead of the enemy.
As I said, I must be watching fiction instead of news documentaries on today's wars.  How many times have soldiers been killed by friendly fire due to innaccurate assessments? or mistakes? ....civilians as well!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 08:56:13 PM by lostlinganer »

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #311 on: August 26, 2010, 02:29:27 PM »
Lost, great comments! Thanks!

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #312 on: September 16, 2010, 05:24:27 PM »
I just read through all 22 posted  pages here regarding Kathleen.  There are so many posters that have commented on her murder and have never posted again anywhere on any site, topic, province or otherwise within this group.
There are too many names and quotes with which to refer but one really caught my
attention.  The poster remarked that whatever happens within the military, stays in the
military. And we will never know the truth.
I truly believe this for in any other murder case there would have been an arrest.

(Kathleen, 19, from Glace Bay, NS but staying with her Uncle and Aunt, a military family, living on the base,  as we all know was found murdered 9 years ago,  her remains we found on CFB Trenton property..to date her killer has never been found.  There are no suspects)

jobo

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #313 on: September 30, 2010, 06:00:26 PM »
Too many cases unsolved, if you ask me....But, we cannot discount a military person, or someone with ties to the military, just as we cannot discount any civilian.
 So it is true, Perdy, we shouldn't blame anyone until we know;  Kathleen's murder is still not solved 9 years later.  The killer is still out there.  Sadly.
  I  blame the authorities, police and military (since the crime happened so close to the base) for this crime not being solved.   Lots of experts around those parts, where are their answers?

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #314 on: September 30, 2010, 06:04:25 PM »
Purdy, thanks for your input and observation.  It's so nice to know you read the site.  Too bad you can't offer an answer as to whom is responsible for Kathleen's murder.
I wonder though why you bash my comments to such a degree?
Are we not of the same mind?  To arrest and charge the murderer of Kathleen?