Author Topic: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West  (Read 180506 times)

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #135 on: March 17, 2010, 08:45:26 AM »
Excellent job of sleuthing Kaleidoscope - You have figured out and narrowed down much;  keep it up!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:28:17 PM by lostlinganer »

Kaleidoscope-Eyes

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2010, 07:01:45 PM »
SAP - don't get me too wrong, as I said, it's a sad, but true integrity I have where I wouldn't hang my family out to dry....maybe not morally correct for the greater good, but morally correct for my family values. It's always a tough position to be in, and each of us has to decide if ever there, which option is most easily contended with for our own peace within.

Another point I want to make about the MacVicar case that I didn't mention before; in these last 9 years since her death, much has advanced in the way of technology in the world, however, much of what the local forces were using back in 2001 was NOT up to date at that time, remember, it was the Trenton Police (municipally funded) who were first called in. As mentioned by one person, they were not equipped to capacitate the investigation, hence calling in the OPP. I can't say I know what more the OPP were able to bring to the table, but I'm going to guess it wasn't a whole lot more where technology was concerned, only more where experience was concerned. We have to remember that this case may very well have been the first major case where the local police, if not both the local and the OPP learned the hard way. Sadly, where our justice system depends so much on evidence that has not a shadow of doubt, there really isn't any room for screwing stuff up.

There have been countless incidents even since 2001 where lack of proper procedures on the authorities part (speaking of the Quinte are specifically) have washed out cases and sent criminals back out onto the streets. I could be wrong, but I hear more of lack of continuity on the Quinte West OPP opposed to Belleville Police who are a municipal force that has existed for forever. So what does this say to us? Is it that they are careless? Human? Insufficiently trained? Allow for slacking? Are corrupt?

Dean Brown/Hannah case - Did you all know that the owners of Matt & Joe's Nightclub (the club that is Dean Brown was supposedly seen drinking at the night before he shot his gf, her sister and mother), the Lentini family have a brother/son who is on the Belleville Police Force? LOL - I always found this rather interesting. Not that I care, they are running a 'legit' business, but I bet the b.s. with the underage drinking won't be in question for too long. The media was quick to point a finger at this club, but failed to mention that Dean Brown was seen drinking shots of Jack Daniels at the Cabaret, a strip joint downtown Belleville AFTER he had been to Matt&Joes. I bet the AGCO is having fun with this case. Who cares really where this kid was drinking...if had of been 19 it wouldn't be an issue, but the media wants just another story to talk about, so let's put some blame on the bar and have them under the microscope just for something else to talk about. My point: EVERYONE IS CONNECTED out there in one way or another, everyone knows someone and there's always someone screwing up to make the cases/incidents etc. inconsistent and hard to find the truth of.

Here's another one for ya: the lawyer that represented Williams, John Wonnacott...he's a crackerjack, been charged himself with impaired driving (again, so I've been told) and I've heard he can't fight his way out of a paper bag....though he has not be retained as Williams's lawyer...I just thought I'd share. Dean Brown on the other hand, has Kafka....a lawyer who is capable of getting the devil out of his own firepit! So, it will be interesting to see where the Brown/Hannah case goes.

and yet another story I forgot to mention to prove the system is a mess
2 people on weapons charges go into pre-trial - neither is guilty of the charges before them GUARANTEED - 1 person has a legal aid lawyer, the other person a lawyer from Toronto who is being paid top dollar. The crown offers a plea bargain; both lawyers agree to take the plea bargain which goes like this:

"If you two plead not guilty as you are not guilty, the case then goes to Supreme Court, then the court is going to add in the charge of use of an imitation firearm. As they have NO evidence against you for the current firearm charges, all they need is for the 'victim' to testify saying that you two had what she believed to be a weapon - you two then have a firearm conviction that is just as hefty as using a real firearm. If you plead guilty to break and enter with intent, they will drop all firearm charges."

Like I said, BOTH the paid for outta pocket lawyer and the legal aid lawyer advise their clients to take the plea bargain. SO tell me now, who's the crooked one here? Innocent people being messed with in the courthouse by the investigating officers, the crown and the lawyers admitting to the dirty game it is, and advising their clients to 'play the game' for self preservation reasons. Those lawyers knew the payout the girl was getting, the flights to and from Calgary for her and that the police were using her as their pawn to prevent them from lookin' like a bunch of retards for spending so many tax dollars on a case where everything from A to Z was bulls**t.

Once involved with the system anyway, one must understand that it's a whole other world and is not black and white like it's made out to be. There's a million loop holes, tonnes of grey area and things get tricky.
I believe people have to stop relying on the authorities to serve our people justice, as the justice system has failed us time and time again. It all comes down to money, power and reputation in the public eye....3 things which we all KNOW cause people to go far beyond their usual character. We all know politicians and lawyers are liars, why do we have so much more faith in the other authorities?

For those of you have seen the movie "Law Abiding Citizen"....great example of how our system (in this movie, the American system) fails the people and the victims.

I pray for true justice to prevail in the MacVicar case. I hope whoever did this, be it Williams or someone else, tells someone who takes justice into their own hands by decapitating that person. In the Brown/Hannah case, I believe they should release the kid to Mr. Hannah...let the father/hubby of that family be the one to let justice prevail.
Same with Williams...give him to the Lloyd's and the Comeau's family....let the living girls he abducted have a piece.
Now THAT would be justifiable!

capeheart

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2010, 08:12:36 PM »
I do believe in my heart that Kathleen's case will be solved. The investigators are focusing on the two murders of Comeau and Lloyd and the two violent sex attacks. They indicated that earlier on. I believe that if Williams did kill Kathleen, the police will eventually get to that. They have mounds of evidence to go through at this time and they have to get through what is on their plate now. But I have faith in them and believe that Kathleen is going to get justice. RIP, Kathleen.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2010, 12:04:12 PM »
Kaleidoscope ..... the more you write, the more I think you are writing about New Waterford, NS
This is why Kathleen Mac Vicar's case is close to my heart.... add to that, she is a Glace Bayer.  ....There are many many people in Glace Bay near and dear to my heart, and was in my mother's before me.  She loved Glace Bay and its people.  RIP dear Kathleen.  My family pray to bring down your enemy.

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2010, 03:35:51 PM »
Kaleidoscope-Eyes, thanks for your posts, it has taken me awhile to read them through but I have enjoyed each and every one.  Please continue posting!
I must says its very refreshing to have someone else here who understands the demographics of this town.

As well many other things you have mentioned regarding the day Kathleen's body was discovered, have interested me. You spoken of police scanners, for whatever reason ( entertainment??) although I believe they it is now illegal to own one, so many people I know still have them. And these are law abiding citizens!... I digress..on the morning Kathleen's body was discovered, I received a cell phone call from a friend who owned a scanner..knew all about the discovery of her body and was enroute to the scene.  ( Up until that point I didn't even know a girl was missing!) I figured it was a bunch of crap but humoured him as he said he would call from the " scene".  And he did. There were many members of the public on scene..I could many voices in the background, some women.  He related they were waiting for the police to arrive and this was at the very least 45 minutes after his first call...so how many military people, as it WAS, after all their area, were at the homocide scene prior to the civillians and far prior to the Trenton Police??  As I have said the scene was contaminated.

As I have said before, I believe, the morning of the discovery of Kathleen's
remains, there was a great deal of confusion as in whose jurisdiction her remains were placed.  This fact I was unaware of until the poster, Another Trentonian pointed out the area had been opened to the pubic, so now I understand further as to why such a time lapse in the arrival of the former "Trenton Police"  And in the ensuing piddling contest, much, if there ever was any DNA evidence was compromised.

Given, what you have written regarding the Brown/ Hannah case and others..perhaps the "old boys" club here is still alive and well.  And I was so hopeful that the situation here is no longer " what you know but WHO you know." 

       

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2010, 05:31:23 PM »
The same thing happened in the Clayton Miller case....the authorities here deliberately let the scene get contaminated.... of course that was because they were already involved in Clayton's death up to the ears. hmmm I wonder :-\

Another Trentonian

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2010, 08:50:45 PM »
I figured it was a bunch of crap but humoured him as he said he would call from the " scene".  And he did. There were many members of the public on scene..I could many voices in the background, some women.  He related they were waiting for the police to arrive and this was at the very least 45 minutes after his first call...so how many military people, as it WAS, after all their area, were at the homocide scene prior to the civillians and far prior to the Trenton Police??  As I have said the scene was contaminated.

As I have said before, I believe, the morning of the discovery of Kathleen's
remains, there was a great deal of confusion as in whose jurisdiction her remains were placed.  This fact I was unaware of until the poster, Another Trentonian pointed out the area had been opened to the pubic, so now I understand further as to why such a time lapse in the arrival of the former "Trenton Police"  And in the ensuing piddling contest, much, if there ever was any DNA evidence was compromised.

amIam, I think you misunderstood me.  I never said that the area was opened to the public on the morning of Kathleen's discovery.  And I don't admit to knowing how long it took for the military or the local police to arrive.  I doubt that the military police would allow people to be wandering freely throughout the area where Kathleen's body was located.  Maybe there was a crowd but they must have been congregated away from that area.  I say this because I was involved in the Surf & turf competition and the police had Curtis blocked off and so we were not permitted to go past that area.   

Her body was found on National Defence property and therefore the military police would have jurisdiction.  However in cases of murder, they usually pass control of the case over to the experts in murder investations such as they did in the recent Wilson case in the PMQs.  I have no idea what the timing was in the MacVicar case, but I do know the Trenton police were involved fairly quickly as my friend at the OPP has told me.  I don't think there was a pissing contest.  You mentioned earlier that I should ask my friend about the bungling of the case by the Trenton police.  This friend was actually on the case for some time but other than telling that fact, does not reveal details.   Saying more wouldn't be professional.



jobo

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2010, 07:34:41 AM »
My feeling is that Williams had nothing to do with Kathleen MacVicar's murder...I say this because Williams strangled his victims, and poor Kathleen was stabbed. I believe Williams was too smart to commit a crime like this on his own turf, and to possibly get blood on himself... I still think, though that someone with ties to the Base there in Trenton is the perp.

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2010, 11:05:23 AM »
You're right about that jobo.  ....Kathleen's murder mo is "out of character" for Williams.  ....unless it happens that he was having "a bad day" and Kathleen managed to defend herself enough to get away and he had to chase her down...and lost control of himself.  But does he carry a knife? 
I doubt too, now that we know so much more on Williams, that he did this to Kathleen.  This crime seems more like a desperate "crack head" that carries a knife.... or else someone she knew personally who killed her "with hate behind his crime".

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2010, 04:40:14 PM »
Another Trentonian, I never said on the morning Kathleen's remain's were  found the area of her body dump site was designated as a public area THAT particular morning. I stated I was UNAWARE that this was a public area at THAT time..  I must commend you regarding blowing smoke, as well as mincing and twisting my words. Good job! LOL





 If anything, the area where her body is found is the LEAST military patrolled.  And it is open to the general public.  Everyone here knows that. Any person, military or non-military can wander through the PMQ area or those woods at any time of the day.  And don’t forget, this was also prior to 9-11 when we had gone to a more open base concept with less security. The military police do not sit in their cruiser in that area.  They are usually further east up the road looking for people speeding through the PMQs! end quote]

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2010, 04:53:48 PM »
Jobo, when and how did you determine Williams had no connection to Kathleen's murder?  Geez it wasn't long ago you determined he was here in Trenton, June 13/ 01..It was determined by the OPP and ( eventually) posted on their website that Kathleen was stabbed to death.  The cause of death for both Jessica Lloyd and Marie France Comeau has never been made public.  If you have something to the contrary at your disposal, please post a link.  Thanks in advance.

amIam

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2010, 05:18:10 PM »
Cape (  big sigh) what do we know about Williams and how he murdered Marie France Comeau and Jessica Lloyd?  There has never been anything media related posted here as either cause of death.  The OPP has stated nothing.   You wrote and I quote: 
I doubt too, now that we know so much more on Williams, that he did this to Kathleen.  This crime seems more like a desperate "crack head" that carries a knife.... or else someone she knew personally who killed her "with hate behind his crime".

Cape, when did we learn more about Williams?  I live here in Trenton.nothing has been coming forth.  If you are privy to links, please advise as I am unaware other than what the national news and Google provided before they were stifled.

Crack heads responsible? When did this happen?

lostlinganer

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2010, 06:20:00 PM »
amIam; it was me who wrote that post..... I stand corrected if what you wrote in another one of the Russell Threads is true, or even possibley true. :-[

Quote
cape, things have been "leaked" out regarding Williams cooperation, nothing has and still is not confirmed by the OPP.  A leak mentioned both Marie Comeau and Jessica Lloyd were strangled.  I live here in Trenton, a few miles from Brighton where he murdered Marie Comeau.  I have a friend, who is connected to the Brighton Fire Dept, they were called to the scene of her death and he told me Marie Comeau was stabbed 31 times.  I cannot confirm this as it's heresay.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cape,  I can't begin to imagine Marie's terror, from all reports she was such a wonderful person; " full of life" as she was described.  And the same has been said regarding Jessica.  This is all so very sad.  
I don't know why it took so long to link the two home invasions and sexual assaults in Tweed, (Sept. 17 & Sept 30)  to Marie's murder ( Nov. 24-25) in Brighton as the same firefighter who related she had been stabbed, also said she was found tied to a chair..which is what Williams did to the two women in Tweed.  In both those assaults, the victims although blindfolded were aware he had a knife
 
 
 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:21:34 PM by lostlinganer »

jobo

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2010, 09:20:28 PM »
The only victims I have ever connected Williams to are:  Price(1982), Bain(1990), Tice(1983), Gilmour(1983), and McWilliams(1987)But of course, that is only if he started at a young age....I never once connected him with Kathleen's murder, even if I have said he was at the base during that period.  From all that I have read, It does not seem to be the way Williams attacked his other victims, they were all in their own homes. as were Gilmour and Tice. I believe Price was too, but don't quote me on that one. Bain I gather, was abducted from her car, she had gone to the UofT Scarborough Campus but her car was left in close proximaty to the 401.
 I connected someone with ties to the base with Kathleen MacVicar's murder, mainly because I cannot see a civvy killing a young woman walking on the base property. Why..Why there? Even if the general public, with no ties to the base, could walk there, I doubt they would kill there. I just don't see it. And please, I do not want anyone to think I am saying it is a military man, but I also do not rule one out. I'm thinking it could also be someone that was visiting someone else from the base. I believe the perp was perhaps more familiar with the layout of the property than, say,a crack head from downtown would be.
 I also have read that Lloyd and Comeaux were asphyxiated.  You can go into Wikpedia for starters and go down to the link at the bottom.( I couldn't open it just now,my computer keeps telling me to reconnect to the internet).   I must have also read it elsewhere, but would really have to search back.  I read all the news I can gather (with a grain of salt) and these posts (some with a grain of salt) and I form my opinions. I read everything I could on Williams, because I am fascinated with the fact he was "a bright shining star" that was so sick in the head, and had soooo many people fooled. 

Another Trentonian

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Re: Kathleen MacVicar - June 13, 2001 - Age 19 - Murdered - Quinte-West
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2010, 09:32:14 PM »
Another Trentonian, I never said on the morning Kathleen's remain's were  found the area of her body dump site was designated as a public area THAT particular morning. I stated I was UNAWARE that this was a public area at THAT time..  I must commend you regarding blowing smoke, as well as mincing and twisting my words. Good job! LOL

Well then the misunderstanding was mine I guess.  I am not sure what you think I am blowing smoke about.  Maybe you can explain that comment.   But I still doubt that people were wandering freely through the area where they found Kathleen's body contaminating the area.  I can't say that for a fact because I wasn't there.  And apparently you weren't either.  I have never seen the military police take 45 minutes to get to a call.  There was an incident today at the base and they were there right away and cordoned off the area.  People were not wandering through the area.  The OPP showed up as well, I think because they initially thought it could be in their jurisdiction, but subsequently left.  There was no pissing contest as to jurisdiction.  Both the OPP (and the QW/Trenton Police before them) and Military Police are very aware of what is OPP jurisdiction and what area falls under the National Defence Act and is under the military's jurisdiction.  As a matter of fact, from what I have seen, they have a good working relationship.

Here you go Jobo.  There has in fact been media stories stating that Marie France Comeau and Jessica Lloyd were both asphyxiated.  See here for one:

http://www.canada.com/news/Eastern+Ontario+women+were+both+asphyxiated/2556788/story.html

Whether it is true or not remains to be seen, if we ever hear the truth.  However, a good source told me that 95% of what we were reading in the newspaper that first week was true.  Another very good source also told me that Kathleen was slashed, not just a once or twice but many many times.   Maybe it was Williams who did it but nothing indicates that he was posted here at that time, so if he did, it would have had to be during a visit.  And maybe he hasn't always used the same pattern to his crimes, or has changed them.  One thing that I do find strange, if he has been a psychopathic serial killer dating all the way back to who knows when, then why weren't there any murders/sexual assaults reported in Trenton/Quinte area from 2004 until 2006 (less the six months he at Camp Mirage) when he was the CO at 437 Sqn?  

Maybe he will, in the end, do a "Bernardo" and list the crimes he is responsible for so that families can finally have closure.  But it will probably be a long time coming.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 09:35:03 PM by Another Trentonian »