Author Topic: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville  (Read 480034 times)

D1

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 08:25:14 PM »
Maybe it is just i who took it that way. But in theory.. I believe it could be viable. Compare the test parameters and sensitivity of the old and new tests and work out a computer program to translate one to the other. For cases where old profiles exist but no more DNA is available and you have to compare against the new system in the data bank. 


Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2009, 09:00:37 PM »
Maybe it will be possible someday but sadly no lab in North America is working on it as they haven't been asked or directed to.  There must be more cases out there that fall into this catch-22.

In the short term, only an old test on a new suspect will work.

Sleuth

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2009, 09:54:53 PM »
This conversation got me thinking. Is there anyway you can get any DNA from any sources you may have in mind?

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 12:27:16 AM »
Ok, got the idea now. You have a specific suspect in mind, Sleuth has a plan of sorts, (maybe best left unsaid for now). But the RCMP still have control of the original DNA profile. You can't go around that, and DNA warrants are required to force a suspect to submit to testing. Has anything changed that would force your suspect to be tested? Is he currently in the data bank?

Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 07:23:49 AM »
The RCMP or Centre of Forensic Science may have the original DNA profile, but I have a copy.  On 27 May 2007, I was surfing the net in the privacy of my home, teaching myself the history and the latest on this subject when I came across the following.  Hope you will LYAO as much as I did on that day.

From the website of Promega, Chicago, Ill.  They not only made the kit used for the DNA test, they also conducted the test in the presence of someone appointed by the Canadian courts to oversee it.  They thoroughly describe the makeup of the chemicals and report the donors DNA from the crime scene to be as follows -

DQA1, 1.2/3; LDLR, BB; GYPA, BB; HBGG, AB; D7S8, BB, GC, AC

Fortunately I printed it that day.  When I tried to go back to it days later, I could not find it.  In case anyone wants to give it a try -

http://www.promega.com/geneticidproc/ussymp6proc/bing.htm

I left this profile on Toronto Police website in case they need it someday.

D1

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2009, 12:02:32 PM »
Oh that is a good one Woodland. Very unusual to be able to get something like that. Maybe Sleuth's idea is worth exploring, privately by pm or otherwise.

These test results are derived from markers that the new tests don't use?  Are any of the same markers used in the new tests? Have you ever approached any one or asked Promega if there is anyway to compare the old with new test results? I would think there are quite a few cases which fall into this category where new DNA isn't available and a suspect hasn't yet been identified, at least to the degree where a DNA warrant could be obtained..

Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2009, 02:32:38 PM »
Thanks D1.  My father arrived here from Dublin many years ago - every now and again a four leaf clover pops up in my life.

For those interested, the markers are from an 'Amplitype HLA DQ Alpha and PM PCR Amplification and Typing Kit'.  None of the markers can be recognized with or translated to the newer PCR-STR kits.  This is according to Promega, the world renowned DNA lab at Lakehead University in Thunder Bay, Ontario and few more in the US.

They all agreed there would be cases that need this translation and like all things in the world today, all it would take is money.

If Toronto Police spent 2.2 million dollars in three years on this case, what is that compared to recreating a few HLA tests?

Note - just because some guys name appears on a list of people volunteering a DNA sample between 1995 and 1998, it should not be trusted in light of the false statements given on this case by 1 guy with a badge.  Bear in mind, this guy with the badge would have known about the OPP Officers family in close proximity to the abduction site as well as the association between the two families.

Another note - 5 or 6 weeks after my four leaf clover DNA find, I started my request for proof of a DNA profile in the National DNA Databank under the Freedom of Information Act as reported by the Toronto Police - or more specifically the 1 guy with the badge.  It wasn't because I thought Toronto Police would hand over the information.  On the contrary, I wanted written proof on how far they would go not to give the information.  One of the reasons cited in their denial - 'a foreign country has information or involvement in the case'.  My translation of this - we, as Toronto Police, don't give a s..t about you or any other citizen of this province or country.  That would be a good fit in light of how many Toronto cops have been arrested in the last 15 - 20 years.  Just look at the background of who Toronto Police voted as their union president last week.  I find this a disgrace on the force collectively - they are out to 'serve and protect' as much as I am out to do 'floors and windows'.  I only consider doing those tasks on a cold day in July.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 04:08:17 PM by Woodland »

D1

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2009, 06:50:21 PM »
Darn near a five leaf clover on that day. I wonder how much money the DNA translator would actually require to develope? At some point the volume of old cases requiring the service may warrant the cost. It would be proprietary and may be a financially viable option for some large company. Otherwise I am left with the thought,"how convenient".

To do the new HLA tests I would imagine a warrant would be required even if the suspect were already in the new databank?

Re: just one cop directed all this..Have been rereading parts of the Kaufman report..Granted this one cop called the shots but he was in a supervisory position over others. He seemed to have started with good intention then deviated, his actions would likely have been known to his supervisors at the time and definately so afterwards. He was not corrected, disciplined, or removed. Instead he seems to have progressed into an even higher overseeing role.

This has been seen in other obstructed cases involving murdered children. Mindy Tran for one, the cop who ordered the DNA washed from her clothes went on to win the officer of the year award from the RCMP. His boss received the order of merit. The obstruction and coverup became so flagrant in that case it was abundantly clear that it was more than just the work of one cop. They may as well have smeared her blood on the floors and windows of the entire Kelowna Police station.

Not convinced yet that it all rests with one cop here either..Still reading..


capeheart

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »
Woodland, this is unbelievable that all of this information is provided to the police and it sure sounds to be very credible and seems to be right on target. I mean you have actually done a great thing by pushing on with what you have found out on this case, you have actually done the police work, except for the forensics, which is remarkable. Now this again is a story that should be told to Canadians, this should be on Fifth Estate or W5. You should try getting Mrs. Jessop and yourself to contact the producers and get a story done, I think this would get some action. I cannot understand why they would tell you to get lost, especially when they are supposed to be solving this crime. It is very unusual in my mind, very unusual. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Sleuth

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2009, 09:13:53 PM »
I agree with capeheart; Let Canadians know how the Police fouled up on this case and the more publicity and the stronger the outcry from fellow Canadians, there will be an inquest. That is if fellow Canadian's are not to complacent, and stand up and be heard.

The more exposure you get, the more someone will be squeezed. Get your story out there to as many sources as possible. Let the door swing wide and let the chips fall where they may. It is time a killer of a little girl got his ass nailed to a wall.

Here is the link to send your story into W5.

http://www.ctv.ca/contactus/

lostlinganer

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2009, 08:31:52 AM »
You can also try Gary Dimmock at the "Ottawa Citizen".

Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2009, 08:53:11 AM »
Sleuth - used your link to CTV.  I directed them to this site to read the info posted so far.  Note that I tried this once before, but it seems if something isn't blaring these days from YouTube, FaceBook etc it can't be that interesting.

That is why I turned to this forum.  Let's see what happens.

Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2009, 09:44:12 AM »
My second last post is missing from the site so am trying it again.

My 1 cop statements - Det-Sgt Neale Tweedy was in charge of a 9 member task force from January 1995 to February 1998.  NT claims in his parliament testimony in 1998 that he, and only he, trooped around and collected the 325 voluntary DNA samples he had tested.  I do not know if this is true or not - he made false statements in the same sitting.
Why only voluntary samples?  Did they not have anyone they wanted tested that did not volunteer a sample?  Maybe.

When I began calling law enforcement in April 2003 NT was no longer in charge of this case.  Yet my info went to him.  When I changed tactics, my info went to him.  When I spoke to NT on the phone one day, he put words in my mouth and knew about all the calls I had ever made.  I spoke to the cop that was in charge of this case at that time - he did not dispute NT's claim that NT was in charge and not him.  This other cop was arranging a video taped interview with me - it did not happen and I never heard from him again.

When NT made his claim to the Globe and Mail on 1 October 2004 (that the DNA profile was in the Databank) no one else knew if this was true or not.  NT was the de facto cop in charge.

Detective Reg Pitts now claims to be in charge of this case.  Det Pitts went on live TV earlier this year - Sue Sgambati's Crime Show - to talk about the DNA profile for this case.  Naturally I called in and asked what use it was since it was outdated and there were no samples left to test.  He stumbled and said it was an 'enhanced' profile.  I was stunned to hear this claim - when he started talking I was cut off from saying anymore.  I do not know if he believes this poppycock or not.  Det Pitts did not - repeat not - say the profile was in the Databank.  I tried to get a copy of the show - unfortunately they do not keep them and could not obtain one.

The beat goes on.

D1

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2009, 11:04:44 AM »
Nice, they only tested those willing to provide a DNA sample..

re:
Quote
He stumbled and said it was an 'enhanced' profile.
What could that mean? Does that indicate it is possible to enhance an old profile to be compatible with the new data bank? What was he even referring to?

Very interesting claim on the part of Mr.Pitts. He seems to  be carrying on with the same policy, directives, and mandate of his predecessor, indicative to me of "orders from above," Pitts just being the latest incarnation..

How do you undo something like this? If it were just one cop it would be a lot easier..

Woodland

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Re: Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984 - Age 9 - Murdered - Queensville
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2009, 12:10:30 PM »
It is not possible to enhance an existing DNA profile, especially from a 1995 HLA test - it is what it is.  The PCR-STR tests can copy with absolute exactness the smallest fragment of DNA, meaning they can create as much of it as will ever be needed.  STR = short tandem repeats.

I have a feeling Det Pitts does not know about the change in technology in 1997, rendering the 1995 profile obsolete.  Most of us do not - we accept that if there is a profile that's it.  Also, he did not say on the show the profile is in the databank.  No one at Toronto Police, as recently as August 2009 will confirm this - or deny it.

Does anyone want to give them a call at (416) 808-7400.  Try asking -

what did you do after September 1997 to be able to enter a profile into the DNA Databank?

or,
what technology did you use to 'enhance' an HLA DNA profile?

or,
where did you get another sample to test after January 1995 following the court decision to use all that was left on one more test?

They are public servants after all.