Author Topic: Our Justice System  (Read 37955 times)

Chris

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 12:49:13 AM »
My sister had a bad childhood, I know she still deals with it today. She never harmed anyone as a result and has been married for 18 years and has 4 kids. Past abuse as an excuse for violent or sex crimes is wrong. THere are people who were never abused who do this and there are people who were who don't.

I think violence and sex abuse is a choice.

dcollins

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2008, 06:44:57 AM »
Most courts know that sex offenders will keep hurting innocent children and women after they get out of jail. They are predators that can not be reformed but! Our justice system can. Most prosecutors and judges know that child molesters and rapist will re offend but they are free none the less. If we are to stop or slow down these crimes then tougher crimes will have to be made. There was a reason that before
1970s the number was much lower and it was because the public would not tolerate repeat offenders. Even predators are afraid when they see their own kind being put away for life. 

lostlinganer

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2008, 10:53:15 AM »
I know I am repeating a point here, but it bears repeating. 

dcollins stated:
1970s the number was much lower and it was because the public would not tolerate repeat offenders. Even predators are afraid when they see their own kind being put away for life.
IMO
it wasn't so much longer sentences back then, that served as a deterent.  I think it was more the fact that society, even the prison population, would not tolerate child molesters and certain types of sexual predators.  If you were that kind of perv. and it got out, you were a target... whether inside or out.

The biggest problem now are the authorities and Judges who have managed to make these acts appear as an accepted social problem/illness (treatable) ...and once again, I say .... Who are these people trying to protect anyway?

Shwa

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 11:07:18 AM »
Hey d, I do not know if you are referring to crime in general or sex crimes specifically.

"1970s the number was much lower and it was because the public would not tolerate repeat offenders"

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/forum/e081/e081c-eng.shtml

"There has been a steady rise in crime and incarceration rates in both Canada and the United States since about 1940. This increase has occurred in conjunction with two other social developments: a large increase in the post-war youth population that has since resulted in an aging population, and a period of high economic growth and low unemployment which has given way to extended periods of economic stagnation and rising unemployment."

So there are other factors at play here, not just a societal tolerance.

In fact, the overall crime rate has been dropping since the 80's even though the number of crimes has risen.  The latter would be the effect of population increase.  The reason the above report does not reflect this is because of the timing of the samples.  But here is the data:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-008-XIE/2006003/tables/soc_ind_justice_spr06.htm

There is a chart on this document that shows crime rates are approaching 1970's levels.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/sdds/document/3302_D13_T9_V1_E.pdf

Here is an interesting, but brief, article on sex offender recidivism:

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cor/sum/cprs200407_1-en.asp

It would be interesting to see the data for sexual crime rates tracked over the decades, but I can't find anything obvious on-line.

Shwa

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2008, 11:38:48 AM »
So what is my point?

Well I think that society has a better chance of waging a war against sex crimes now than they did in the 1970's.

For one, because of the increase of the availability of information there are more instances of sex crimes reported.  So it may seem like there are more sex crimes, but I am betting they are relatively the same as they were back then per capita wise.

Secondly, I think victims of sex crimes are less stigmatized (and thus less likely to feel ashamed) nowadays and are therefore more likely to report sex crimes than they were back then.  There is more of a support infrastructure today than there was back then as well.

Thirdly, the ability to catch sex criminals is far more sophisticated nowadays and more likely to result in detection and convinction.

So what's the problem then?

Is it a matter of political will?  Well every politician runs on the principle that silence is approval meaning that if there is no public outcry, they do not need to 'fix' anything.  During the latest election campaign how many stories have you read from candidates saying they would personally take up the battle for increased punishment for sex offenders? Did sex offences or crime against children even make it as a question in the recent party leaders debate?  So long as it doesn't interfere, politicians will aim towards the status quo.

Is it a matter of judicial will?  Well as much as folks want to rag on judges, they can't just hand out whatever they want.  And of course, there has to be a balance.  But the Criminal Codes says that rape (the word rape was dropped from the Code in 1983 I think, but rape is rape as far as I'm concerned) is max 10 yrs, with a weapon max 14 yrs and aggaravated (causing injury) life. 

However, curiously, the minimums for aggravated and with a weapon are the same - 5 years for the first offence, 7 for the second.  The sex offence laws concerning children - that are not rape, but interference, invitation to touching, child porn, etc are much smaller sentences.

Then there are the additional handicaps placed on judges - the 2-for-1 'dead time' rules for instance where a portion of the sentence has been reduced.

So to change all this we need immediate political will and a judiciary that is not handicapped by (or handicapping of) the Criminal Code.  If we look at the recidivism rates for sexual offences my previous post - maybe the idea is to make the first offence minimum a very long sentence, minimum 10 or 15 years.  And any rape of a child 15-20 years.

That may not strike fear into a pervert, but if they are caught they are going away for a very long time.

lostlinganer

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 12:22:27 PM »
well said Shwa;  and it is twice the crime when perpetrated on a helpless child.  the whole criminal code needs revamping in this area.  ... there's something really outrageous about pouncing on children... I could actually "lose it" if I caught someone doing that.  I'm just a scrawny woman, but I think I could kill them.
It also should be taken into account that violence toward a rape victim -such as beating, knocking them out, more than one situation (an accomplice holding the victim down) and the use of rape drugs or other, to gain an advantage with a victim, is in itself, just as hanious; and makes a victim as helpless as a child in such cases.
As far as I'm concerned, such crimes dictate dangerous offender status and a long, long time under lock and key - like until they are too old to do it again.... and I'm sorry but, I think they should also be castrated or neutered.

dcollins

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2008, 10:07:25 AM »
What I was trying to say is the death penalty has been done away with in or just before the 1970s and killing and child abuse is rising with
the laws we have today its the victims not criminals that should be afraid. If a person killed and abused a child or person and was put to death others would see and they would be more unlikely to commit such terrible crimes.   

debbiec

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2008, 10:23:23 AM »
I agree dcollins, we absolutely need more of a deterrent for criminals. To me that means in all crime and not just in sex crimes. We could stand to take some lessons from other countries where the punishment is harsh. In our country we would probably have people up in arms if it was tried here.

lostlinganer

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2008, 10:39:05 AM »
Anyone who has read the Clayton Miller thread knows how I feel about the Just Us system, as it stands - an it's never going to change unless we change it.  Back in the /90's, when my brother took on the corruption spanning New Waterford to Ottawa in regards to Clayton's case, one of the first things done to him was an accident "set up" where his driver's license was taken from him in hopes of "slowing him down" and "breaking his spirit" in his quest for justice - especially when he was driving to other communities in Cape Breton daily to walk with his sign (and still does today) .... well he appealled the conviction in Halifax, represented himself, and defeated them.  But it sure made us realize how convenient it would be for corrupt officials if we still had the death penalty.  I am certain that, by now, my brother would have been given it for something they would have set him up for.

Shwa

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2008, 06:19:55 AM »
But... is the death penalty a worthwhile deterrant?

Texas has the DP and their murder rate has been steady for a decade now after a decade long peak in the late 70's.  Same with Utah and others.  Minnesota's doesn't have the DP and their murder rates have been steady for the past decade.  Same with Michigan and others.  What these stats show is that the murder rate is more or less steady whether you have the DP or not.  So even though there is no chance of recidivism if you put a convict to death, it appears that there are others ready and willing to take his/her place.

State-by-state murder rate with non-DP states highlighted:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2007

Other data sources:

Crime stats by state:  http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

States with/without the DP:  http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-policy-state

(BTW - most provinces rank with the safest percentile states in the US)

You know maybe we come to a collective idea that the death penalty simply doesn't work and we decide that perhaps horrific torture does and will be an effective deterrant.  So we torture people horrifically and then in ten years look at the stats and they show that, despite the legal use of horrific torture, the murder rate is still steady.  Then what do we do?

If we are looking to assuage our anger, the DP or horrific torture is the way to go.  But that is punitive and after the fact.  It is not much of a deterrant.  What we need to do is somehow, someway keep people from killing other people. Period.

lostlinganer

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2008, 10:45:01 AM »
ok Shwa; here's what I think .... what we are referring to are the most heinous offenses against other human being... especially those who are helpless and/or targeted for whatever reason by these types of fiends. 
I believe that crossing the line in this way, should automatically dictate the need to end their lives too - as they have done to others - either in fact or else in theory, due to the fact that they have scarred their vicim/s for life.
I simply believe the authorities are too corrupt to put the death sentence "in the hands and at their disposal" to use when the choose.
Therefore, I say the serious offenders should be "segregated for life" in every way.  (the only time the are segregated is to protect them from the general prison population who would ultimately administer home-made justice) and the idea of puplicizing their face and record, only serves to anger people.... people have to make a living and their children have a right to grow up safe and secure.... the adult caring public (thanks to government's mismanagement and abuse of the tax dollar, and elected official's personal corruption and greed) have to spend every waking moment striving for their children's, and their own personal well being and survival - they haven't got the time and energy to take on, yet another task, like being body guard for their children and themselves 24-7.  They are already giving up so much in tax dollars off the paycheck as well as every time they spend a $ of what's left after the taxman helps himself.  The public doesn't need anymore strife in his life - especially fear of dangerous offenders.
Hense the likes of which, after committing such haneous crimes, should be segregated to a designated section of the country where they can't hurt anyone but each other.  They should be behind a segregation border, and some kind of tracking device attached to them for life.  If we can put a man on the moon, we can do this for the sake of humanity.

dcollins

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2008, 07:09:51 PM »
 With stronger and tougher laws comes stronger accountability their has to be a solid evidence and the rich can not be able to pay lawyers
to keep them from receiving the same punishment. But it starts with people joining together to change the laws so the judges do not have final say but the victims and people should be responsible.  We also have to demand more accountability from our government and make our own MLA's serve us instead of follow the leader. It takes more than words to make changes it also takes action and results.   

Shwa

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2008, 09:02:36 PM »
"It takes more than words to make changes it also takes action and results."

Amd it takes action at our level - the grassroots.  The best way to do that is get involved with your local party riding association and let everyone know your agenda.  I'll likely be doing this in the next few weeks.  I mean enough is enough.  Time to put up for me...

dcollins

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2008, 06:22:08 PM »
 Everyone is aware of our government system before laws can be change the government itself needs drastic changes when we elect
politicians they follow their leaders and then the party then the people that voted for them. If we want more accountability we have to vote for candidates that are representing their own riding first. This means that nothing will change until Canadians realize its time for change. and not just parts of government but all including senate members that sleep most of the time instead of passing crime bills that will make a difference. We deserve more and a lot people are content to feel that change is impossible and with those attitudes nothing will change. There is still time to give our children a better tomorrow and have a government that actually works for the people.

Shwa

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Re: Our Justice System
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2008, 05:38:52 AM »
"before laws can be change the government itself needs drastic changes"

Not necessarily.

In the mid-80's the Progressive Conservative Mulroney government was about to introduce policy that would de-index the Old Age Security pension.  This change was met with significant 'Grey Power' politics including a very large seniors demonstration on Parliament Hill.  The government changed their tune and dropped the issue.

If a significant amount of people get the same message out, many good things can be done.  The reason I suggest joining your riding association and making your agenda well known is because we are all of different political stripes.  This issue should be non-partisan and should over-power the social engineers that blindly wave policy papers behind closed doors.  Time for this issue to come out of the closet.