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Messages - GSAR_Mbr

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Were there bogs, swamps, along any part of his walk that he may have taken?

JB, there arent many swamps/bogs in that area but there are lots of cliffs, crags, fissures.

The area borders on the Bay of Fundy, and what I am reading above indicates he was right near the warf/bridge which has a tidal river/inlet there.

Lots of soft silty mud in that area but the bridge is easily 20 meters bove the water. I will post an image of the area shortly depicting where the bridge is. I have no idea the importance of the bridge, I have just seen the posts about it above.

MOD: Attached PDF with image from google earth, arrow indicating bridge

GSAR.... I know all that.... we all do!  I don't think anybody would be going on a search without "the sermon".  However, if I had someone missing I wouldn't want to wait for all the rig-a-monro ... especially if it's a child or someone ill.  I'd just hope and pray that everybody who could, would get out there looking.  It goes without saying that I would beg them to stay together, and lookout for each other.  I know the search and rescue people are second to none around this area ... when it comes to finding a lost person.  But I have seen several incidents where all areas were searched and the missing person's body showed up later deceased (in the area that had already been searched)  I wasn't giving Walwyn instructions "as what to do" ... I was giving him my opinion.  And I'll stick with my opinion.  I wouldn't want to be huddled in the woods freezing while the police and search parties are getting their stuff together, planning, and giving instructions.  The hours they take doing this is surely all I'd need to freeze to death before somebody finds me (or else I wander further and further into nowhere)  .... it's just my opinion.  I respect and value the Search and Rescue program.... I know it has a success track.  But I still have my own preference (opinion) which is why you see I put in imo when I posted the comment.

However, thank you for straightening out any rouge searchers that may be here.

Lostlinganer; I agree with you fully that each person is entitled to there opinion and I did note your "imo" :)
I wont sit here and argue the validity of your points/my points because both are equally correct. It does take SAR teams some time to deploy but this is because there are tactics used to locate a Missing person, same as when the police respond to an armed robbery or fire departements respond to a fire.

I can tell you that I have yet to be involved in a Search where the subject was located deceased due to the length of time it took Search & Rescue to find them. One note on your comment that the subject was found deceased in an area where GSAR had searched, we have had that happen here, the person was found beside a string line a SAR team had placed to show if anyone went through it. The subject was suicidal and circled around on the teams and purposely chose where a team had been and would be again. He was an avid hunter and knew the woods well.

I dont know the situation you speak of where the subject was located deceased but in my opinion if you wish to get a bunch of people and go into the woods you are risking that even more because you will have now trampled ever single clue which we are looking for, and tracking/air scent dogs will now be useless.

IMHO- Your better off to wait till the trained professionals get there AS LONG AS you know that the Police have activated them because SAR can not respond until the Police Agency in charge calls them

I am not dictating what you must do, just trying to educate others as to why rushing into the woods is a bad idea. The long and the short is we all want the same result and that is to have the lost/missing person back home safe:)

Just an addition the only thing I have located online so far is a file with the "Doe Network"
Thanks to another memebers post I found the attached Item.

 *I created it into a PDF hopefully the admins of the Doe Network will not mind

You will always find incidents here where a few members will actually get together and go out searching because they have gathered facts and police won't listen.  Either way, it is extremely satisfying for those of us not to lazy, or too intimidated, to go out there getting facts on our own.  I carry a camera 24/7,  and have learned plenty about the area I live in ... and about the criminal element here. 

Lostlinganer- Please do not take my comment here as negative towards what you are suggesting but I must note and advise you that when it seems like the police officials are doing nothing, that is rarely the case. Most times what the police are doing can not be released to the media or will not be released to the media. Also most times the Families know what is going on more so then the public but its the same token the Police keep them advised but request that the Family keep what the Police are doing out of the media.

You will notice as you get into the cases/threads here, it's publicized when/where there will be a search.  So if you are associated with family members of a victim on here, you can always ask to help in the search.

Are you refering to:
a.) Police planned/sanctioned Searches?
b.) Family lead Searches?
c.) Searches well after the fact?

Mod: Just wanted to make the reference to my note below... I agree offering to help is a great idea, just dont get upset if officials ask you not to/turn you away. There is a good reason even if they can not explain why to you.

Some searches police only include "trained searchers".... guess that's to protect potential evidence.  I'm my opinion, when a child goes missing ...especially a child, ....but anyone for the matter.  I feel just get every available body you can, to get out there searching.  People seaching together are not likely to deliberately destroy or tamper with evidence. 

Again please dont take me negatively Lostlinganer BUT what you are suggesting as a good/safe practice is not a good idea. Search & Rescue Trained Volunteers are Professionals who train regularily and pass background checks. Also its not a matter of deliberatly destroying evidence its the accidental part which can cause issues in the long run.

Personally I am a Search Manager with my local team and have logged 182+ Search Hours in the last 2 years, involved in 20+ Searches. Of those I have 3 out standing files where the subjects have not been located to date. 2 of which are presumed to have had water related accidents. In the last 4 years of being with the team I have only missed 2-3 Search Calls and that is because I was unable to get the time off work as there werent enough employees to cover my absence. Nothing bothers me more than when we have to "give up" because there is nothing more to go on and the areas have been extensively covered.

The problems with untrained civilian "volunteers" (I quoted volunteers because in canada all SAR members who arent Coast Guard/Military are unpaid volunteers) are the following:
1.) Some have no experience in the woods/out doors which can lead to us having more people to Search for.
2.) They are looking for a subject, we are looking for clues.
               There is only one Subject but millions of Clues
3.) When we are finished where I am from we have detailed paperwork with Detailed maps which have all the GPS tracks and clue locations to give to the AOJ(Agency of Jurisdiction)
4.) Our members come properly equiped, no running shoes and jeans.

In the past we have and still do add spontaneous volunteers to our teams, family members, friends, neighbors etc. However when doing so we are adding to the work load if our trained volunteers. We are responsible to maintain any evidence which may be present and untrained searchers unknowningly will contaminate the area. Each and every search is treated as a crime scene until proven otherwise because even though you can be 95% certain there is no crime you can not turn back the clock once you come across a subject that has been murdered.

Do not take me wrong I am not trying to deter any members from joining a local SAR team, or even volunteering to assist when they know a search is going on. What I am looking to do through this post is to educate those on this forum as to some of what goes on behind the scenes. As well as to the reasoning as to why people get turned away from a Search when they try to volunteer.

Searching for a missing person is a tremendous task and SAR teams are always looking for more members to help them out. Anyone in New Brunswick/Nova Scotia or PEI looking to join a SAR team PM me and I will help you get in touch with a local team. ** Note you have to be able to pass a criminal background check** I feel that is quite obvious but I am certain people who have murdered someone go onto forums like this and the last thing we want is them to join a team to stay in the loop about their "missing person"

Last but not least if you do get accepted to help on a Search or to join a team do not expect to have all the knowledge of an event. Searches run on a command structure. Only the people running the search have all the information. The people in the woods will be given as much as they need to effectively locate the missing person. This is to protect the family and the file because if it is a murder/suspicious the less details given out publically the more chance of finding the person who knows too much.

It has happened in the past that a woman was murdered and her assailant actually volunteered with the SAR team and unfortunately for him he was not on the team that located her body. Therefore when his DNA/fibers were found on her body and other corresponding evidence he had no excuse... and it helped convict him(Note this was before my time, but is used to explain why Search Managment can sometimes get picky with who we use on a Search as far as outside volunteers go!)

-GSAR_Mbr :)

But this is not the first time Daigle has gone missing. More than 10 years ago, he disappeared for a few days and was found safely. He had been living outside, McCloskey said, without divulging the location.

"He emerged very dishevelled and no worse for wear," he said. Officers have checked that place again with no luck.

Before anyone inquires this area was extensively checked by police and Search & Rescue Officials

Ground search and rescue teams could be used, but there would be no point unless there was a valid sighting and a place to launch the search, McCloskey said.
Search & Rescue was utilized Saturday April 9th.

SAINT JOHN - Police are asking west side residents to check their sheds and properties for any sign of Lionel Daigle, a schizophrenic man who has been missing since Sunday.

Lionel Daigle has been missing since Sunday. For the past four days, police officers have scoured the city for any sign of the 58-year-old man, who was last seen leaving the New Directions special care home on Winslow Street.

"I can tell you it's very frustrating," said Insp. Glen McCloskey, head of the criminal investigations unit of the Saint John Police Force, which has had several officers and a police dog searching night and day for Daigle.

They've searched bank records, contacted friends and relatives, checked bus routes and bus surveillance video.

They've checked his favourite haunts and Shop 211, his south end workplace.

They've checked shorelines, the old Centracare property and nooks and crannies under the Reversing Falls and Harbour bridges.

"We've checked every place that we can think of," McCloskey said.

Now, with time ticking and Daigle missing his medication, police need the help of the public more than ever.

"We're asking that people on the west side go and check their property, any old buildings or fields that may be close, in case he became disoriented and maybe fell down or something of that nature," McCloskey said.

When Daigle left the special care home last Sunday at 11 a.m., he was believed to be heading to the uptown area, but has not been seen since.

It is not clear if Daigle is still in Saint John. He could have travelled somewhere without telling his two brothers and sister, who live in the city.

"We're hoping he somehow went to a friend's place we have no knowledge of and he's nice and warm and clean and healthy," McCloskey said.

The man is likely to be confused since he probably has not had his medication since Sunday, an issue that is troubling for police.

It is unusual for missing persons cases to last longer than 24 hours in Saint John.

Since January, the Saint John Police Force has investigated 61 missing persons cases, and all of the people turned up, except Daigle. Last year, the force investigated 249 cases.

But this is not the first time Daigle has gone missing. More than 10 years ago, he disappeared for a few days and was found safely. He had been living outside, McCloskey said, without divulging the location.

"He emerged very dishevelled and no worse for wear," he said. Officers have checked that place again with no luck.

The media attention has generated quite a few tips across the province, but they turned up negative. People thought they spotted Daigle in Miramichi and Fredericton, but video surveillance proved it wasn't him.

Ground search and rescue teams could be used, but there would be no point unless there was a valid sighting and a place to launch the search, McCloskey said.

Police all over New Brunswick and beyond are still on the lookout for Daigle, McCloskey said, as police in Saint John continue to comb the area.

He said there's no reason to believe foul play is involved in the man's disappearance.

Daigle is five-foot-three, weighs 137 pounds and has a slim build. He has brown eyes and short salt-and-pepper hair.

He was last seen wearing a three-quarter-length grey hooded winter jacket, blue jeans and white sneakers.

The public is urged to call the Saint John Police Force at 648-3333 with any information


Lots of tips, but man still missing

Police have received many tips about a man who went missing from a west side special care home on Sunday, but they have all come up negative, said Sgt. Glenn Hayward of the Saint John Police Force. "The patrol division and Major Crime are still actively trying to locate him," he said. Lionel Daigle was believed to be heading uptown after leaving the New Directions home. He is five-foot-three and weighs 137 pounds. He has brown eyes, and short salt-and-pepper hair. He was last seen wearing a grey hooded winter jacket, jeans and white sneakers. Police say he has mental health issues and requires medication. Anyone with information is asked to call the Saint John Police Force at 648-3333

SAINT JOHN - Police are asking for the public's help in finding a missing 58-year-old man who left a west side special care home on Sunday and has not returned.

Lionel Daigle was believed to be heading uptown after leaving the New Directions home. He is five-foot-three, weighs 137 pounds and has a slim build. He has brown eyes and short salt-and-pepper hair.

Daigle was last seen wearing a three-quarter-length grey hooded winter jacket, blue jeans and white sneakers. He is reported to have mental health issues and requires regular medication.

The public is urged to call the Saint John Police Force at 648-3333 with any information about Daigle's whereabouts.

JB- Media are reporting as if it is unlikely that he was a despondent. However we all are aware there are 4 sides to every story.

1.) Yours
2.) Mine
3.) The Truth
and 4.) The Media's

I have not heard anything to make me think that this subject would have had a history of Suicide nor anything to suggest he was a despondent. It is hard to say what has happened to Mr. White

I wasnt personally involved in this event nor have I had a chance to look back into this search's records. I would note however that at the Time River Valley Ground Search & Rescue(the local team) had approximatly 80 active members. Many of which were out on this search, with police officers also searching.

The Army was also inlisted to assist with the search in an effort to locate Mr. Greene.

The details I have so far are very limited and I as "AmIAm" noted can not find news articles regarding this search/the disappearance of Vincent Allen Greene. If any one has Factual Details please post them as I am very interested in this File.

No Problem Cape Heart. Statistically you should assume that a person moved 2km the first hour and a kilometer an hour after that. Now thats a very basic assumption and each category of missing person has different statistics. I will post the information regarding lost hunters either later tonight or over the weekend.

Perhaps it will give you a bit more insight into what gets looked at when a call goes out for a search.

Mr. Hill was a very skilled gentleman, and normally carried a compass with him. I will definitly be following this one until he is located. It is the only case I have been involved in in the 3 years that I have been with SAR which we havent been able to bring a subject home. (This does not mean that they all have ended well but closure is better than the unknown.)

Sorry to all of those who asked questions which I didnt reply to I didnt tell it to notify me and I apologize for forgetting to do such.

Keeping in mind that I am limited to what I can say I would like to note the following:

DebbieC- Distance from Truck to "deer stand"(Location of Apple drop) would have been less than 300meters, as per the terrain there are sections out there that I as a Search Manager wouldnt put teams because there are risks. BUT these areas were still checked. I myself went out and checked them because I was in the roll of a searcher. Being High Angle Rescue certified we covered off some steep sloped areas.  No ropes needed but still added safety required.
Your question as per could he have fallen and gone un-noticed I would have to say that it is very unlikely.. not impossible however with the amount of dogs, helicopters and searchers out looking for someone who was expected to have burrowed underneath brush and leaves in order to be masked from the game he was hunting. I would expect that we would have found him if he had simply had a medical distress issue while walking to or from the site. If he was under brush and had a heart attack maybe he was not noticed but we were specifically looking for this, so being as skilled and trained as we are I would hope that nobody was careless enough to miss him during a sweep.
I will note in this post numerous times however that where he has yet to be located anything is possible and I am not suggesting  that any theories are wrong or right.

JOBO- If I could show you the maps I have of the coverage that we completed you would understand how unlikely it is that he is just lying there. He would have to be very well hidden.

CapeHeart: Yes there could have been a hunting accident however it is very unlikely that they could shoot someone and remove them from this area with out leaving some sign or clue/trace behind. AGAIN it is possible but that is very unlikely, cant be rulled out though until he is located.

The New Brunswick teams have met with the RCMP officer who was in charge of this search and we have discussed all the areas that were covered and where we thought would be reasonable to look again. I know that the dog handlers(civilian ones) were thinking they would like to go back out and do some more work.

Anymore questions let me know I will do my best remembering that I can only say so much.

My commenting capabilities on this one are limited as I was involved in the search.

To those wondering about dogs, NS and NB each have multiple Canine units from Police Service Dogs to Civilian Trained dogs which get certified by RCMP. Dogs were brought in and searching everyday. Multiple air units were searching from the air.

I can not confirm nor deny if he made it to "his deer stand" however I will say dont spread to loudly that he didnt.

560 searchers provided 7500 hours of searching time these last 5 days. Day and Night.

Please Note there is an active search for a missing hunter in Nova Scotia. Please see the links below for details.

NS Ground Search and Rescue and New Brunswick Ground Search and Rescue are actively searching for this man.

Not a problem Cape Heart, I have been following posts on here for a while and decided I could start commenting so long as I remember what I know as fact and what I am allowed to mention. So long as I keep it on the news records and common facts I shouldnt run into issues.  If you have any questions at any time let me know. If I dont have the answers I can get them.

Not about cases but about general stuff for example the pings, gps'r functionality.

Also Note their is an active case right now in Nova Scotia which NB GSAR members are assisting with.
(sorry to go off topic)

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