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Listing Of Unsolved Murders & Missing People In Canada => Ontario Unsolved Murders & Missing People => London => Topic started by: Angela Ellis on August 28, 2007, 09:17:43 AM

Title: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Angela Ellis on August 28, 2007, 09:17:43 AM
* 1968 ? Scott Leishman, 16, of RR 1, Thorndale, was missing for three months
before his body was found in Port Burwell harbor on May 15. There were no signs
of violence but some of his clothing was disturbed. It is unclear if he was
sexually assaulted.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Woodland on June 24, 2010, 06:36:53 PM
While browsing Toronto Star Pages of the Past today, found the following  on the front page dated 30 May 1968.  Unfortunately it is not possible to link the pages.

TS reports that Scott McGregor Leishman, 16 was last seen 21 March 1968 - during a school holiday after spending the day with friends in Thorndale, where he was from.  He was last seen getting into a vehicle - a cream colored meduim compact car.

This is different from other reports that he was last seen 15 February 1968 in London, Ontario.

Not sure which report is correct, however looking at the Robert Bruce Stapylon thread, in 1969 Canada did not use the metric system, so Robert 'found 6 km's from home' is dicey imo.

I do not see Scott or Robert on an OPP or other police force website, giving details that these are active and unsolved cases.  I believe they are unsolved, just not active - so who released the different info?  I get the police want to hold back on some info - but if they released outright incorrect info - this would be ill-conceived on their part.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Woodland on June 29, 2010, 05:35:53 PM
Another note on Scott.  On 5 February 1998, Project Angel did release info that Scott was found beaten.

I wonder if this occured prior to him being put in the water and was it possible then to determine that with certainty.  Or is it possible that he was put in Big Otter Creek much further upstream and carried down to Port Burwell with the spring run-off, causing some battery to his body.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: jeb on November 12, 2010, 07:10:19 PM
Hi All, I'm new to the forum.  I have done much research on many of London's unsolved murders from the sixties.  I have read that Scott Leishman's body was found in Port Burwell Harbour but I have never read that his body was in Big Otter Creek.  Could you please direct me to a reference as I would like to read up on it.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Woodland on November 12, 2010, 08:04:29 PM
Hi jeb - Big Otter Creek was pure speculation on my part.  See 'By Decade Murders and Missing People' on the home page of this site --> Comparing MOs in Canada, page 2, 17 June 2010.

I was asking the question 'could Scott have been placed in Big Otter Creek the same as Jacqueline English and carried to Port Burwell in the spring run off'.  Conversation continued from there.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: jeb on November 12, 2010, 10:59:57 PM
Hi Woodland:  Thanks for the reference.  Until I read your post I was unaware that Big Otter Creek empties into Port Burwell.  And of course, as you have stated Jacqueline English's body was found in Big Otter Creek.  There is a picture in the London Free Press of the bridge that her body was said to have been thrown from.  (Listed as the 10th Concession.  On a Brantford Simcoe Map the bridge is located on Highway 20 right at Furnace Rd.)  Also, in your reference conversation you assumed that Jacqueline Dunleavy finished work at 11pm.  However the London Free Press has stated she finished work at 6pm.  Hope this is helpful.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Woodland on November 13, 2010, 05:15:13 AM
Thanks jeb.

Since you have studied the London cases, we would be most interested in any info you might want to share on any of the threads.

Do you know where Robert Stapylton was located?  If so, can you post under his threaad?
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: goNgo on November 29, 2010, 07:34:58 PM
I spent a brief time with the microfiche of the London Free Press today, with a specific goal of finding out more about Scott's disappearance.  Unfortunately that microfiche is time consuming to work with if you don't know the specific dates of the news. So...I'll have to go back to complete the job.

In the meantime I found the following:

May 16/68 -  very brief article, titled "Unidentified body found in harbour", on page 29 (in only one edition of LFP...not the other), which is the front page of the local/regional section.  It basically said that a body had been found floating face down in the Port Burwell inner harbour (I presume the day before -- May 15 -- which is consistent with other reports). They indicated that the body belonged to a male, teen to early 20's in age.  The body was sent to the coroner's office for autopsy.

I checked the next couple of days of LFP...but I didn't see anything further reported.

Thursday, May 30, 1968 edition -  on page 1 there were two related items.

1) "Did you see this boy?"  There is a photo of Scott.  Key points were:
  -  body found in Port Burwell harbour on May 15
  -  Scott was seen accepting a ride in Thorndale between 4:00 and 4:30 on March 21 
  -  he was last seen wearing a black wool jacket with a hood and blue jeans
  -  OPP Det. Sgt. Dennis Alsop said they want to find the driver of the car

2)  "US sex-killing not linked to unsolved London deaths" -- on page 1 and cont'd on page 9
The article is about Stanley Rice, arrested in Florida for the May 12 sex killing of an 9 year old boy.  Waterloo police and OPP questioned the suspect to determine if he was involved in the 1963 disappearnce of 9 year old Keith Henry of Waterloo (vanished July 12/63) -- body not found. The article stated that this suspect was cleared of any involvement in the Frankie Jensen and Scott Leishman murders.

Key points related to Scott's case

  - Leishman's body recovered from the Port Burwell harbour on March 21 (???-- seems like a mistake and is inconsistent with what they said in above article. I might be a transcription error on my part.  I will have to go back and check since the copy quality is too poor to confirm.)
Leishman's farm home in Thorndale was only one mile away from the spot where Frankie Jensen was found.-  Police were unable to determine Scott's cause of death.

Sorry I don't have more to report.  I'll have to go back and go through the period between mid and late May to see when/if they reported more details on Scott's case when they identified the body.  I also want to check references to this case arising from Project Angel in 1998.

edited to correct my poor typing/grammar!
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: goNgo on November 29, 2010, 08:02:55 PM
While Scott's body was found in Port Burwell harbour, I wondered how much upstream (Big Otter Creek) his body could have been placed and still been washed down to the harbour.

I came across this blog, which described a canoe trip down the Big Otter Creek in the month of May (the same month that Scott's body was found).  The canoeists put in around Richmond (just south of Hwy #3) and successfully canoed to Port Burwell.  They had to lift their canoe over one log jam though.  check out the link and have a look at the photos.  (Thanks Darren...whoever you are!)  This creek is quite sandy, as opposed to rocky, and has fairly high sandy banks.  I'm guessing that Scott's body could have been dumped in the creek quite a way upstream, been snagged on a log jam or branch and then a large rainstorm could have dislodged his body in May.  Thoughts?

http://dmcope.freeshell.org/bigotter.htm  (http://dmcope.freeshell.org/bigotter.htm)
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Woodland on November 29, 2010, 08:52:52 PM
I have previously read the blog you mention goNgo - it's very interesting.

It would be equally interesting to know what the initial investigators and Project Angel felt about Scott being found in Port Burwell - placed there vs floated/carried some distance.  I wonder if it's even possible to forensically know with a degree of certainty one way or another.  Doubtful in 1968.

Port Burwell it not all that far from Thorndale/London - will the killer tell us one day?  I hope so.

Great job on the media reports!
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 08:58:20 PM
Here's the LFP articles I found for Scott Leishman's case (thanks to goNgo for some direction as to relevant dates).

Scott disappeared on March 21, 1968. There is nothing I found in the paper about his disappearance from March 21-29. Like Robert Bruce Stapylton, I wonder if there was a specific reason why this was not reported. Was it originally thought a runaway case? Or did the family or police specifically want it kept quiet? Considering Frankie Jensen had disappeared only 6 weeks earlier, one might assume Scott's (and later Robert's) might have caused a greater alert in the community.

The first set of articles come from May 16th, 1968. Obviously information was at first sparse:

Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:00:54 PM
May 22-23, 1968. After one week Scott has been identified:
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:03:02 PM
Another week goes by before the next mentions. May 29-30, 1968.

The 2nd article is a repeat of the May 29th, except for the added fact that the white compact car that picked him up was heading eastbound.

Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:11:17 PM
This article is also from May 30th, but primarily deals with the apparent non-connection in relation to Scott (and Frankie) of a captured suspect in Florida who was arrested, and connected with the disappearance of 9-year-old Keith Henry in Waterloo in 1963.

(I found later and earlier articles dealing with this case also-- apparently the suspect, Stanley E. Rice, arrested for other child murders, provided information on where the Waterloo boy's body could be found. I could post this if anyone would like, though I don't want to take this thread off-focus.)
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:14:35 PM
Lastly, from May 31st, 1968.

There didn't seem to be anything else in the week following, and aside from related mentions in articles dealing with later cases, as well as the resurgence of interest with Project Angel (which I'll post separately) there seems to be no other news specific to Scott's case. If anyone is aware of anything else, please let me know.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:21:37 PM
I will add that I find it very interesting that:

Jan 9, 1968- Jacqueline Dunleavy is murdered and left at Oxford and Sanitorium Rd. area
Feb 9, 1968- Frankie Jensen is abducted from Hyde Park Rd, about one mile away from where Jacqueline was found, and found in Thorndale (April 12)
March 21, 1968; Scott Leishman is abducted from Thorndale, about one mile away from where Frankie was found.

Certainly food for thought.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Have faith on August 02, 2011, 10:00:59 AM
Thanks for the finding these articles rkay.

We know that the Porn Man drove a white station wagon, and was suspected of picking up hitchhikers. Two of his suspected victims..Jackie English and Priscilla Merle were found in bodies of water.

I'm not sure if there were any station wagons in the 1960's that could be described as a medium size, compact car, by a witness.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Annastaisha on August 02, 2011, 12:21:53 PM
Remember with vehicle descriptions that sometimes they are wayyyyy off... Gold Camaro VS gold Nissan 240sx... (Bernardo/Holmoka) very different cars
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: goNgo on August 03, 2011, 01:23:58 PM
Thanks for posting the articles, rkay.  It's a shame there isn't more, isn't it?

So, it seems that Scott regularly hitchhiked from his farm, to town (Thorndale), and back.  What could have happened in that short distance?  Did he know the person(s) who picked him up?

It would be great if someone who knew Scott would post on here.  If we knew more about him and what was going on in his life at the time, we might be better able to understand whether he was attacked by a stranger or whether someone was angry with him and beat him up.  Could he have been accidentally killed and then the perpetrator(s) panicked and dumped his body?

There was no evidence of sexual assault, but then his body was found much later in water so any evidence could have been destroyed, so I don't think we can definitively dismiss that possibility just yet.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: jobo on August 03, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
These 3 crimes (reply#15)..are so close in dates and I would like to see the Map of these areas where these kids were abducted/found...I agree, these crimes must be by the same perp.     It's almost like once a month, for 3 months, someone was on the prowl.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Have faith on March 29, 2012, 08:11:02 PM
Thank you to Countrygirl (posted on Frankie Jensen's thread) for posting this site on the Thorndale Face book page.

We welcome all Thorndale residents (past and current) and hope that you can help in providing any information about Scott and his unsolved murder.  For example, we don`t even know where Scott lived, and where he was taken from in Thorndale.

If you read the Project Angel thread, you will realize that Scott`s murder was at the same time that London and surrounding areas were devastated by two serial killers in the late 1960`s and early 1970`s. There are a dozen unsolved murders of young boys and teenage girls in this time period.

Please feel free to post any info.  We would also appreciate knowing something personal about Scott.  We don`t want to ever forget him.

Thanks Countrygirl,

Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: countrygirl on April 03, 2012, 05:57:12 PM
Thank you HF.  I hope that I can encourage some others to post what they know - no matter how trivial it seems to them.  I will keep asking those that I know.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Have faith on September 20, 2012, 02:31:59 PM
To all Thorndale locals:  Can you please help?

In an effort to locate the exact spot where little Frankie Jensen's body was found, we are trying to locate Frank O'Shaughnessy's property from 1968.  It was Conc. 2, lot 19, and was situated between Nissouri Rd. and Valley View Rd.  Frankie's body was found in the Thames River at the rear of this property.

In 1971 the property was listed as Larry and Loise F. Russell, and it appears to have been owned by the London District Association for the Mentally Retarded.

In 1968 The O'Shaughnessy neighbours were Marta Zecchini (lot 19) and the Estate of Lorna. C. Harris (lot 18).

If anyone could point out this property on Google maps, or provide a current address, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Have Faith

Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: chickapey on September 21, 2012, 02:23:28 PM
Please take a moment to sign our petition to the OPP. It's a plea to add all unsolved murder cases in the OPP jurisdiction to their website. Thank you and please share with your friends.

http://www.change.org/petitions/opp-the-opp-website-needs-to-include-all-unsolved-opp-murder-cases# (http://www.change.org/petitions/opp-the-opp-website-needs-to-include-all-unsolved-opp-murder-cases#)
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: countrygirl on September 23, 2012, 05:04:52 AM
Morning Faith.  Here are the responses I've gotten so far (in regards to your post #23).  I think it's conflicting though at least in  my memory as the campground is on the river which is on the east side of the road yet another person says west side?
Karen Cadick Hunter    22 September 23:55
I remember this Like it was yesterday. And the camp grounds sounds right .
Comment history
Jessie St.Amand   22 September 09:38
I was going to say that but was not sure
Denise Fewer   22 September 08:03
The existing "River View Campground" on Valleyview was owned by the London and District Association for the Mentally Retarded when we purchased it in 1994. Not sure if thats of any help.
Linda O'Neil   21 September 23:03
Hi Lot 19 would be north on Nissouri Rd. from the Thorndale Rd. It would be on the west side. about 2/3 of the way to the oliver side rd.
Jessie St.Amand   21 September 21:24
I went on and read it yes very interessting
Pam Balfour   21 September 21:14
I am interested in tv shows about unsolved crimes so one night I did some searching on the internet and came across this website. I was able to answer some of the location questions and mentioned that I would post about this website on this Thorndale group. Nothing happened and today I got an email asking if I could post this question to see if anyone has any more info. It's an interesting website! There were 3 cases back then that are eerily similar, Where one body was found, another went missing close by. Scott seems to be the last victim.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Have faith on September 23, 2012, 09:36:32 AM
Hi countrygirl,

Thank you so much for posting my question on the Thorndale facebook page.  Please thank the good people who responded.

Rkay and I had looked this up in the old city land registry maps, and determined that this property was just south of the River View Campgrounds (actually the south end of the same property) on the west side of the river.  Actually rkay did the computing, as my eyes glazed over in confusion.  The lot lines in Thorndale were complicated and did not follow a straight up and down, north/south line, but slanted to the east.

Based on the Thorndale responses, it appears that we agree on the location.

Thank you,

Have faith

Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: goNgo on September 23, 2012, 06:55:04 PM
One of the reasons that I joined this website was that there were a number of unsolved cases in the London area from back in the late 60's and early 70's.  It just didn't seem right that these should remain unsolved.  While a couple of cases had grabbed the attention of a number of people, I was concerned that a few others hadn't attracted much attention.  Scott's was one of those.

If anyone knows exactly where Scott was last seen, and exactly under what circumstances, please share what you know.  After all of these years, surely more people are willing to step forward with information. 

On this website, you can post anonomously.  Please, please, please share what you know, no matter how trivial. If you feel uncomfortable posting information in public, please send a personal message to any of the folks that you feel comfortable with on the London threads.  People like rkay, Have Faith, Foghorn, chickapey and many others are truly caring and respectful individuals who will keep your information private to the degree that you request.  I also promise that I will not share any information with any others unless explicitly requested.  These cases deserve to be solved!  Other family members of murdered young people are also most interested in any connections between cases.

I sincerely hope that Scott's family are supportive of solving this crime.  If this is opening old wounds, to the point where you are not willing to accept it, please let us (me) know and I will step back from this case.  I have two sons, and I cannot imagine what it would be like not to have seen them grow up to adulthood.  Scott did not deserve this.  :'(
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: factsfirst on December 19, 2014, 01:33:08 PM
There has been a prolonged drought on Scott's site.
The deaths of young people from in and around London in the late 60's and early 70's occurred along two distinct lines. There is the "north-east" line or "north branch of the Thames River" line that stretches from Jacqueline Dunleavy's house to the dumpsite of Soraya O'Connell just south of Stratford. It includes Jacqueline Dunleavy, Frankie Jensen, Bruce Staypleton, Soraya O'Connell, Suzanne Miller and possibly Donna Awcock. The "south-east line" or "Highway #3" line starts at the old London Normal School where Jacqueline English's pencils and perfume were recovered and ends at the dumpsite of Lynda White near St. Williams. It includes Jacqueline English, Georgia Jackson and Lynda White. Grab an old map sometime and mark them out.
  The only crime that goes north to south between the two lines is Scott Leishman running from Thorndale to the Big Otter Creek and Port Burwell.
  When I was in about grade five we learned about the "Scientific Method" which was to make a hypothesis and try to back it up with facts to either prove or disprove the hypothesis. At any rate my hypothesis is that the deaths of four of these individuals are linked together by a common killer. There is a loop or circle that joins the murders of Jacqueline Dunleavy, Frankie Jensen, Scott Leishman and Jacqueline English. It starts at the Stanley Variety store with Jacqueline Dunleavy. Her body was found just 2.8 kilometers from Frankie Jensen's house. Frankie was recovered from the Thames River just 3.8 kilometers from Scott Leishman's home. I believe that Scott Leishman was dumped into the Big Otter Creek at the town of Richmond and that his body found it's way downstream to the Port Burwell harbour. Jacqueline English's killer took the time and risk to return to Richmond to spread out some of her clothes in a ditch. He then left Jacqueline's pencils and perfume just 200 feet from one of her last residences and just 2.1 kilometers from the Stanley variety. Fairly tight circle. That is just the geography of these cases but there are obviously all kinds of other similarities that have been documented on these threads. No other approach in the past half-century has proven successful so I am not afraid of failure. Any evidence or information gathered about any one of these four cases will be applied to them all. I am hoping to put some extra effort into the case of Scott Leishman because it is a key link in potentially solving the death's of three others and perhaps more.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Declan on December 29, 2014, 12:48:27 PM
Based on the timing of things, it must have been suggestive to the police investigators at the time, that Frankie's killer may have been spending time in Thorndale (for whatever sick purposes) in and around the bridges and river.  Since Frankie was not found in the river until April 19th, Thorndale folks would not necessarily be "on the lookout" for a suspicious car or stranger parked alongside the road and/or near the bridges.  So, when Scott was "accepting a ride" he and the other Thorndale young people would be somewhat unaware that their community was "involved" in the London abductions.  They may have seen it as  London problem, not involving neighbouring communities.

I wonder, to what extent, Thorndale residents were asked about suspicious vehicles they might have encountered in/around the bridges during the interval from Feb 9th (when Frankie was likely killed), until March 21st when Scott went missing.  Also, whether any vehicles that might have been noted up to that point, were no longer noticed after Scott went missing. 

Additionally, if you go back and look at the various LFP articles that are posted (early on) under the threads of the victims during the late sixties, you will see that the police - and as reported in the news - were already quite focused on the geographical connections.  If a serial killer was following the news (which is likely) could this have led him to make an effort to discontinue certain tactics for others?  This could create a "two distinct lines" scenario.  Perhaps this was also part of the subterfuge explaining why certain articles from certain victims were found "here and there" in the highway 3 area.  Since they were not hidden, and would be found...why was this done?  (and when was this done?)
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: factsfirst on December 29, 2014, 03:35:36 PM
Yes, the "Thorndale Connection" is proving to be quite interesting. It certainly seems that the residents of Thorndale were not exactly excited about having the disappearance of Scott Leishman become part of a larger problem that began in London in 1968 or perhaps earlier in 1966 in Aylmer. This is totally understandable given that Thorndale is a quiet, tight-knit community. This was not exactly the type of publicity that the town would have been looking for. Regardless, four of these murders [Frankie, Suzanne, Soraya and Scott himself], have some possible connection to the town.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Gypsygirl on July 31, 2015, 08:34:20 AM
Has it crossed anyone else's mind that the property was owned by the London District Association of the Mentally Retarded and G. Fryer was the Principal of a school for the Mentally Retarded (words used back then, not my words) perhaps knowing this property/having visited this property? I know Arntfield's book (although not painting him in a very good light) seems to have portrayed him as someone we can "cross off our list", however just because DNA does not match does not mean that the person did not "play a part". I am just trying to look at things from a variety of different angels including the fact that there may very well have been more than one person involved in a number of these murders.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: freeman on July 31, 2015, 11:04:41 AM
Gypsygirl, my understanding was that GF was employed as principal at the CPRI which was next door to the Katherine Harley school for the mentally retarded, I'm not sure if they were officially connected. 

The London District Association for the Mentally Retarded is the precursor to  Community Living London which I believe is a community based organization not a government organization, i.e. I don't think it would have owned or directly run school, although it certainly would have had connections to it.  The connection is interesting though.

 It seems that more than one tragic event happened at the property in thorndale

I agree that absence of DNA is not proof of innocence though it makes proof of guilt much more difficult at this point, the fact that some of the cases seem likely to  have had 2 people involved in the abduction it may be possible that one person performed the acts  that would leave DNA and other may have just liked to watch.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: Gypsygirl on August 05, 2015, 09:43:10 AM
Yes or as someone else suggested it more than likely took more than one person to lift a body over a bridge. I strongly dislike speaking graphically like that, in particular for fear of it coming across thoughtless in any way. My thoughts are always that of deep empathy and compassion for all family members and those lovingly connected to the victims of these horrible acts. A second person could be the person behind the taunting of police aka placing articles of clothing/personal belongings in specific places to be found etc.
Title: Re: Scott Leishman - Thorndale, ON - Murdered - 1968
Post by: chickapey on August 05, 2015, 02:26:51 PM
I don't like it either Gypsygirl (talking about that part of the murder) but it sure makes things different when there is a possibility of one person being in a position to rat out the other. In two people cases, there is usually a 'boss' or the brains behind the act and the follower. The follower is usually weaker minded and the 'boss' will be more  likely to be the sociopath. The follower is the one the police would lean on to get them to confess something. The problem is, of course... they have to have someone to actually question :(