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Listing Of Unsolved Murders & Missing People In Canada => Ontario Unsolved Murders & Missing People => London => Topic started by: Angela Ellis on August 28, 2007, 09:07:44 AM

Title: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Angela Ellis on August 28, 2007, 09:07:44 AM
 Jacqueline English, 15, of London, was last seen getting into a car
Oct. 4 at the cafeteria of a store in the former Treasure Island shopping plaza
on Wellington Road, near the London Ice House. Her nude body was found five
days later in Big Otter Creek near Tillsonburg. She had been sexually assaulted
and killed by a blow to the head
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: uwo72 on December 02, 2007, 05:53:09 PM
I knew Jackie and she was a real sweetheart.  We worked together at the Latin Quarter in London. She made me orange jello when I had the mumps.  Has anyone thought about a connection between her, Frankie Jensen (also found in the water), Linda White and Jacqueline Dunleavy?  They were all killed at about the same time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2007, 06:44:32 PM
Hi uwo72,

Yes, there does seem to have been a serial killer in the London area in this era. Many simular cases in London and as far as Burlington.

Sadly, the police are not really going to say anything about that.

If you happen to know a family member, they can call and ask about this case and see what is said. It is just not normal for 15 year old girls who are not in high risk activities to get murdered like that. And so many happened.

So yes, we do see many simularities.

It is nice to hear that she was so nice, thanks for writing.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Fraser on April 24, 2008, 03:58:48 PM
Okay, I'm probably getting goofy in the head here but, if there were a connection between these children (London, Burlington, etc.) and then if there was a pattern in Edmonton...there was a military base in London at the time, and Edmonton in the 70's...makes me wonder. (In case anyone is worried I am trying to bash the military, I was a member of the forces for 17 years and still have many friends who serve.) On top of that did they not suspect someone from the Air base at Aylmer with regards to Lynne Harper.
This got me going because there was another case years ago (I can't remember the details) except it was a child murdered in the Toronto area and the police eventually suspected a man who had been former military. I believe he died before they caught up with them. For some reason a name like Howe rings a bell.
Sorry if I am rambling.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on April 24, 2008, 06:19:35 PM
Edmonton still has a base and there is another huge one east of Edmonton at Wainright and another HUGE one at Cold Lake east of Edmonton. Litterly tens of thousands of people involved in those operations.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Fraser on April 24, 2008, 06:31:30 PM
This is the one I was thinking of.

Sharin' Morningstar Keenan
Age: 9
Location: Toronto, Ont.
Killed: January 1983. Sharin' was abducted in downtown Toronto and found dead 10 days later.

Investigation: A murder suspect, Dennis Melvyn Howe, is believed to be still at large. He is on the RCMP's Most Wanted List.

Here is the link to where I found this info:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/missingchildren/childmurders.html
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Fraser on April 24, 2008, 06:40:23 PM
Thanks. I hadn't realized how much detail I remembered about all of this until I read the info you've provided. This is the most up to date article I could find on him.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Burnett_Thane/2008/01/23/4788789.php
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Fraser on April 24, 2008, 06:51:42 PM
I was posted to Wainwright for 3 years, 1985 to 1988 so I know it well. When I was there it was only about 250 military personnel. My understanding is that it is much larger now. At that time, there was a lot of military personnel who travelled/worked through Wainwright, Calgary, and Edmonton. Please don't get me wrong...I wouldn't want to point at the military and there are more military installations in Canada than many people realize but it does make me wonder.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on April 26, 2008, 02:32:35 AM
I agree, no one is blaming military culture or the institution. It is a fact though, that most of these persons are in the demographic that is often most violent (men 18 - 35)

So when there is a base of 10,000 soliders, it would have the same number of men in the age demographic as a city of 100,000.

And it should be noted, that active soldiers have a much lower crime rate then regular civilians.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Fraser on April 26, 2008, 06:47:57 AM
You've got a really good point there Chris with the demographics. Who knows if it is a military person, but it certainly makes you think...if it is the same person involved in a lot of these cases then they were mobile in their lifestyle whether it be a truck driver, military person, etc.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DigDig on October 23, 2008, 05:34:33 PM
I think Howe was only in Toronto for about 8 months, maybe 18 months, I don't remember exactly right now, I'll have to reread the link below.  :D

Here's the link on this site about Howe:
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php/topic,399.0.html

The suspect in Lynne Harper's murder might be Kalichuk, he was the military guy in Aylmer at the time. He is the one who is dead. The link I provided has a CBC article about Kalichuk relative to Lynne Harper and Susan Cadieux.

We would all love to see Howe captured. Perhaps his history is far back and he was in Toronto early on in his military career.

Desespere,
A possible suspect, or more like person of interest, could be Kalichuk. I emphasize this because Kalichuck was only one of  a dozen or so  POI in the Lynne Harper murder. One thing that speaks for Kalichuk is that he had never proven himself to be a violent type of man.  He was more like a pathetic  alcoholic who got off on  indecent exposure and luring  a little girl into his car by way of offering  underwear as a "gift".
There were others  in the same area where Kalichuk lived who had proven themselves to be violent and had a record to prove it.

Also, the composite sketch of the perp in the Susan Cadieux bears no resemblance to Kalichuk
Just some thoughts...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on October 27, 2008, 12:32:07 AM
Are you familiar with the Lynn Harper case?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: 1950stoney on January 13, 2009, 02:18:54 PM
Hi,
I'm new here.  A friend and I were discussing the Linda White case as it has been of interest to me for many years and I decided to see if there was anything on the 'net about it and found this site.
According to the police, my roomate and I might have been the last ones to see Linda.  I was writing a French test with her at UWO and she finished before me - my roomate was waiting in the student centre to give me a ride home and as Linda left, I told her I'd be finished soon and to go up and wait with Jim and we'd give her a lift home.  She went up, had a coffee with Jim and decided that she didn't want to wait - when last seen, she had thumbed a lift with (supposedly) a blue Volkswagen and was never seen again.  I still haven't heard whether or not they ever found her.
The thing is there was somebody in the London area at the time who had been in Goderich at the time of the Stephen Truscott affair and apparently had been interviewed about that case.  I believe that he was a psychologist or something along that line.  From what we heard, he moved to London around the time that women started to disappear.
The officers that interviewed my roomate and I mentioned this person but we never heard anything more.
I'd be very interested to hear if anything further ever happened with Linda's case - she was a good friend.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on January 14, 2009, 02:56:50 PM
That is interesting. Thanks for posting.

Wasn't she 15? Or was her age wrong? She was a university student?

Well, I am sure the police have a solid theory on this case, but I have read the Truscott case over and over and it still appears Trustcott himself is still the most likely suspect, but there does seem to be a killer of young girls in the London area at that time.

So the police never talked to you again after the initial investigation? Not even any cold case people? It could be they know who did but he died or something.

If not, I am certain the police will check out this case again at some point. I sure hope they do.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: 1950stoney on January 15, 2009, 01:55:07 PM
Hi Chris,
No, Linda was a university student in 1st year at Western - I'm guessing 18 or 19 at the time.  I knew her quite well as she had a locker next to mine - we were both non-resident students.  A group of us also went to the Homecoming football game together - she disappeared shortly after that.
A few days after she went missing, I was talking to her roomate and according to her, Linda had returned to their apartment (on Wharncliffe Road about 1/2 mile from the campus) after her French test and changed clothes.
This fact led the original investigators to suspect that she had just run away at the beginning of the investigation.
The police came and interviewed my roomate and I at our apartment but that was it - I always wondered, did they ever find her?
Thanks,
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on August 08, 2009, 07:50:26 PM
Hey if you learn more, please let us know. thanks

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: 1950stoney on August 19, 2009, 01:51:52 PM
To Gibbons RE: Linda White
Sorry, I haven't been back to the site for a while.  Linda's apartment was in a 3 storey walk-up just at the bend of Western Road/Wharncliffe on the Wharncliffe side.  There is a small side street there called Beaufort Street and I think that's where she lived.  If not that, then Saunby Street, the next one down.
Hope this helps.
stoney
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on November 20, 2010, 09:00:19 AM
Bringing additional comments about the Jacqueline English case together from other threads:

<snip>
 Many of the victims were in positions were they could be easily be stalked.  Jacqueline English was working in the snack bar of the Towers Department Store in Treasure Island Plaza (1441 Wellington Road S) and the murderer could have been a customer there and gained her trust (she was only 15 years old so she couldn't have been working at Towers for very long).  This store was just outside the city limits and the buses didn't run out that far.  Jacqueline English would have had to walk across the Wellington Street bridge over Highway 401 and a stalker may have known that she did this on previous nights.  Perhaps he became a regular customer in the snack bar, gained her trust, and offered her a ride home on the night that she went missing (or perhaps she hitch-hiked).  Jacqueline Dunleavy also worked in a store where someone could watch when her shift ended and be conveniently waiting to strike. 
<snip>
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on November 20, 2010, 09:24:24 AM
Some additional details I found in old press clippings at London Public Library:

Jacqueline's body was found in Big Otter Creek, near Otterville.  I had seen references to Tillsonburg area previously.  Otterville looks like it is about 7 miles NE of Tillsonburg.  From google maps I see that there is a big pond in Otterville (a widening of Big Otter Creek?) and various tributaries of the creek seem to congregate in/near town.

Some of Jacqueline's clothes were found in a ditch 18 miles SW of her body.  (The two major roads running SW of Tillsonburg are Hwy 3 (Talbot Line) and Plank Rd.)

Loafers, tentatively identified as belonging to JE, were found at a pond 5 miles NE of Aylmer. (which would imply approximately 10 miles straight west of Tillsonburg)

Her grey mini-coat and the bottom part of the dress she was carrying (I presume her Towers uniform?) were not found. (i.e. by the time of the article -- unfortunately I don't have the date of the article.  I will try to find it on micro-fiche.)

Edited to add a correction:  Jackie did not work at Towers, but rather at the Metropolitan store. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Woodland on November 20, 2010, 11:25:46 AM
Your posts add alot clarity goNgo.

Otterville is exactly east of where she was last seen at her place of employment.  It seems someone then circled back the long way, scattering her clothing.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 20, 2010, 05:55:27 PM
goNgo:  Can you please give me the reference stating that Jackie English worked at Towers.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on November 20, 2010, 08:05:34 PM
As I have previously stated I need to invest a little more time to studying these cases before offering any observation to make sure I have the facts. I got the info from Georgia Jackson's thread....in reply #10, from Jessy W.about the girl's shoe perhaps being planted along with clothing. I do not know where this information initially came from. As for Jacqueline English's shoes & clothing locations... my facts come from the LFP article, dated Oct.23/69, by Bob Jones. It is a lengthy article & I am unable to paste it. Hopefully you can locate the article & copy it to this site. Hope I have been somewhat helpful.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 15, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
At jeb's suggestion, I'm going to start searching for information on Jackie's case. All I have so far specifically for her is this survey article, from the LFP on January 13, 1990. It was the last of the 5-part series by Jane Sims on local unsolved murders (the first two can be seen in the Susan Cadieux and Frankie Jensen threads, respectively). It gives a basic overview of her case that no doubt we can flesh out with more digging.



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sherlockholmes on April 15, 2011, 07:25:35 PM
Excellent research, rkay. The newspaper article mentions a man charged and acquitted of a stabbing, who was known to Jacqueline. I wonder if there is any more information available of this person?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: odrg on April 15, 2011, 08:27:23 PM
He lived on my street - odd guy. Can't remember his name but Mary Doyle Journalism UWO did a research paper on his trial. The woman claimed she knew he killed JE and mailed him news clippings "Your subscription to Life has run out "- to try to flush him out. He was acquitted because both were nutty and judge couldn't believe either.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: odrg on April 15, 2011, 08:49:42 PM
The guy who was tried for attempted murder against a woman who fingered him for JE murder was Glen Fryer - I think that was his name.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 16, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
odrg: Thank you for this info.  This is the man I was trying to remember as being a prime suspect in Jackie's murder. Did he have a club-foot?  Also, we heard that the only reason he was acquitted was because his wife provided an alibi for him. Wasn't Mrs. Harrison later killed in a house fire (arson)? Oh, it's so hard to remember that far back.

This is ALL based on rumors of course. We also heard that a print of a "club foot" was found at one of the murder sites.

Jeb: Please feel free to jump in and correct any misconceptions :-)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sherlockholmes on April 16, 2011, 08:39:33 AM
Club-foot? That would certainly shorten the suspect list.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 17, 2011, 07:15:37 AM
I thought I would just list some of the rumors from back then, so they could be dealt with and then we could move forward. I look forward to more info from rkay. Let me know if I can help in any way.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:23:25 PM
Been doing some digging for Jackie, and I'm astounded by the number of articles I found just in the first three weeks after her disappearance alone.

I think at this point, with several unsolved area murders in under two years and apparently little progress, the authorities stopped being so tight-lipped, and with this case began really reaching out to the community, to stir up whatever they could. And, to follow suit, I'll be posting everything I find related to her, just to have as much primary documentation available as possible.
 
(Again, I apologize that in some cases legibility is an issue. The microfiche reproduction sometimes looks like a pair of chickens had been fighting on it, and to make matters worse, the printer that makes copies at the library isn't great. Not to mention, for a third generation, the printout then gets scanned in. I can fiddle a bit in Photoshop, but still... If there's anything that you can't make out, let me know.)

The first articles came out about three days after she didn't return home, all on Oct 7, 1969. The first is from the regional edition, the second the standard morning edition, and the third is from the LFP evening edition.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:27:39 PM
From October 10, 1969, morning:



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:28:10 PM
October 10 evening edition, the full front page after her discovery.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:30:40 PM
October 10 images, (slightly) better quality:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:34:50 PM
October 11:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
October 13-14:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 21, 2011, 09:41:53 PM
October 15; the first two from the morning edition, and the second pair from the evening paper.

Will continue posting more this weekend.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on April 22, 2011, 08:21:42 PM
Thank you very much for locating, copying and scanning all of those articles, rkay.  I spent a few hours in the library looking up some of these London cases, but could only spend short periods at a time and it was only paritally productive!  :/    You accomplished so much more!   These victims and their families deserve resolution of the murders. Now it is easy for anyone on the internet to look up these cases.  You never know what it might trigger.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 22, 2011, 09:25:31 PM
Rkay....good work, lots of articles. Thank you for these postings. Next interesting aspect is the unknown witness to an interaction between Jacqueline & the "suspect/s, having gone to police with info....is the fact that the woman began a series of unusual happenings. EX: phone calls to her home, cards with birthday wishes & other strange occurances....which led up to her eventual attack after an outing on a deserted road on Dec.11th 1969.
The LFP reported the savage knife attack on Fri. Dec. 12th 1969 & then again on Sat. Dec. 13th 1969. Please note this witness did eventually end up dead in 1970....not quite sure on the date.
Interesting articles you have posted. Great work!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on April 23, 2011, 11:49:19 AM
Have Faith:  Thank you for your condolences.  Kind and appreciated.
Rkay:  Thanks for the great work on the postings.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on April 23, 2011, 12:31:04 PM
Jesa:  Actually the witness (her husband and son) all died in a house fire Tuesday, January 9th, 1973.  In March of 1973, a coroner's jury ruled the fire accidental.  A relative of the witness felt that this ruling was inconceivable.  Her reasons are given in the newspaper.  On Thursday, November 16th, 1972, 133 Elmwood Ave. burned to the ground.  Jackie, her mother and brother all lived there on the 2nd floor, a month before Jackie was murdered in 1969.  In October 1969, some pencils and perfume belonging to Jackie were found somewhere around the old Teacher's College, approximately 100 yards east of 133 Elmwood Ave.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on April 23, 2011, 06:12:16 PM
rKay:  Before you fast forward to December 12th and 13th there were many other articles published on the following dates:  Thursday, October 16th - no new info, Friday, October 17th - 2 articles, Saturday, October 18th - 1 article and 1 letter to the editor, Monday, October 20th - 1 article and a composite drawing, Tuesday, October 21st - 1 article, Wednesday, October 22nd - 1 article, Thursday, October 23rd - 1 article, Friday, October 24th - 1 letter to the editor written by Jackie's mother Doris, Saturday, October 25th - 2 articles - no new info (1 of the articles turns out to be very ironic as it refers to a hidden witness plan to protect the identity of witnesses), Monday, October 27th - 1 article - no new info, Tuesday, October 28th - 1 article, Wednesday, October 29th - 1 article (re: the previously mentioned found pencils and perfume), Friday, November 1st - 1 article, and it seems to wrap up Tuesday, November 18th with 1 article summing up the case to this point.  (I have made a note to myself that there were many other articles in November and December, but all were concerned with the reward money or contained no new info.)  Hope this helps in your search.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 24, 2011, 11:42:29 PM
Thanks jeb. My intention is to be as complete as possible, and your help is appreciated. Good to have something to check against. So far my digging has gotten to October 23rd, which I'll post here now, but will continue onward, especially with reference to what you've detailed.

I must admit that the additional information you're contributing is very compelling. I will definitely follow up on those leads. What's astounding me, considering what you've brought up, is whether the police at the time did the same. As you said elsewhere, this is a complex case, with a lot of information seemingly apparent, and certainly seems to point in some very definite directions worth pursuing.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 24, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
October 17, along with the Saturday Oct 18th editorial:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 24, 2011, 11:53:00 PM
Monday October 20th revealed a definite break with the suspect image, and the October 21st article suggests the police received an enormous response.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 24, 2011, 11:58:23 PM
October 22nd. A discussion of the witness from Welland, and a recap of political discussion of offering a reward for information and the policy towards hitch-hiking:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 25, 2011, 12:04:22 AM
A second editorial discussing the possible break, from October 22, and letters to the editor on October 21-22. Clearly London was really starting to wake up and realize that these were no longer isolated incidents and that everyone needed to be attentive and vigilant, that this was a problem for the whole community.

(On a personal note, I was surprised to see the first letter-writer is someone I know; he couldn't have been very old at the time.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 25, 2011, 12:05:53 AM
October 23rd- Jackie's shoes are located:

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 25, 2011, 12:09:51 AM
Saturday Oct. 24th. The week ended with a direct appeal from Jackie's mother. If anyone here needed to be reminded why we shouldn't give up on or forget Jackie's case (or others on this site, for that matter), then please read this:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on April 29, 2011, 07:12:27 PM
"Jackie was, without a doubt, the most unselfish person I've ever known.  She had a friendly, bubbly, outgoing personality, she was fun to be with, and people her age invariably gravitated towards her.  I can still remember the day when my mother told me that she couldn't afford the price of a suit for my grade eight graduation, that I'd have to attend the ceremony without one, and how Jackie immediately jumped into the conversation, offered to pay, and then did.  She was as happy buying me that suit, as I was proud, wearing it to my graduation.  There's another occasion I can vividly recall that I have to mention as well.  Payday for my mother usually meant some sort of treat for the rest of the family, and on this particular payday my mother took the three of us (10-year-old Anne, 9-year-old Jackie and 8-year-old me) as well as two neighborhood kids, out for dinner at a restaurant on Wellington Rd.  As we approached the entrance to the restaurant we couldn't help but noticing a man in a wheelchair selling pencils from a tin can.  We all passed by him politely and entered the restaurant.  However, once we were inside Jackie literally began to beg my mother for her quarter allowance so that she could go back out into the parking lot and give it to the man.  And she did.  The rest of us honestly didn't care (at least not a quarter's worth) until Jackie came back in, sat at the table, and held up a small, leather, handmade change purse that the man had given to her.  I'm sure you can guess the rest of the story from here.  We all wanted one, so we all took our quarter allowance out and gave it to the man, and we all came back with a pencil.  The handicapped stranger knew that Jackie had given him the quarter because she was concerned about him, and because she honestly cared for his well being.  She wanted nothing in return.  He also knew that the rest of us just wanted a change purse.  But that was the way that Jackie was.  She felt for, and had compassion for others, whether she knew them or not.  I think my mother summed up Jackie's nature best, when she said in her letter to the editor of the London Free Press entitled, "Mrs. English asks:  Please help find him," dated Friday, October 29th, 1969:  Here was one of the sweetest most considerate, selfless persons one could find (not because she was my daughter but because she loved people without any reservation)."; and, "She took on two extra jobs to clothe her brother and herself and she did a fine job."  In the words of my mother's best friend XXXXX, taken from the the London Free Press article entitled, "Friends sure Jackie English must have been forced into car", dated Friday, October 10th, 1969:  "She was a "pleasant and happy" girl, Mrs. Murray said.  She babysat for me often and even if I left the place untidy, I would come home and find it all cleaned up.  She wouldn't accept money either and always said she was doing it as a favor to me."  In my opinion, one of the nicest of all Jackie's personality traits and probably the one that got her killed, is best summed up by my mother's friend XXX, in the same Free Press article that XXXXX's quote was taken from:  "Mrs. McIntyre said Jackie was a "trusting" girl.  "Perhaps too trusting.  She always trusted people when she met them.  She was this type of girl herself and she expected the same from other people.  She was always smiling.  I never saw her bad-tempered.""
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on April 29, 2011, 11:14:30 PM
Thanks for sharing that, jeb. She sounds like a wonderful person.

Again, to me it illustrates why it's so important to keep this case alive-- to remind everyone that Jackie was more than a name on a list but a real, thinking, feeling human being who affected the lives of many people still to this day.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 30, 2011, 07:21:53 AM
Jeb, that was a heart-warming tribute to your sister and I appreciate you sharing it. Jackie obviously was a very special person, and was as beautiful inside as she was outside. For you and your sister to hold it all together for her funeral shows the strength of character and love that you all shared as siblings. Your mother did a wonderful job in raising such an incredible daughter. God bless you all.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 02:56:34 PM
Continuing from where we left off, LFP articles from Oct. 25 & 27 dealing with the manpower assigned and the initiation of the "Hidden Witness" program:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 03:10:10 PM
October 28 has the police divulging they have a lead, and the evening edition revealing the type of car they're looking for:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 03:19:59 PM
October 29th-- mostly discussion of the reward offered and an article on hitch-hiking. It's clear in not only the number of articles but in the content themselves that Londoners were quite affected by Jackie's case.





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
Then, in the late edition of October 29, the police reveal a very interesting turn-- the discovery of some of Jackie's purse contents in Wortley Village:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 08:05:28 PM
October 30 has a direct appeal for the public to keep watch for her purse and coat:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 08:09:33 PM
Oct 30-31, more on the rewards offered, along with further discussion on her missing coat:

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 08:16:08 PM
November 1 and 3, more discussion on rewards and student fundraising. While no new information was forthcoming at this point, I appreciate that the LFP was keeping her case in the headlines.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on May 15, 2011, 08:22:33 PM
This brings us to November 18, which is, as jeb said, a brief summation of the case to this point.

Thanks to jeb for providing some guidance as to where to look for articles in the files.

As apparently the next several weeks' stories only involve more discussion of rewards with no new info offered, I'll jump to the next development in the case after this.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on May 16, 2011, 08:32:32 AM
Thanks rkay for uploading these additional media articles.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on May 23, 2011, 07:42:39 PM
Regarding the purse contents being found (which I hadn't seen before)....didn't Russell Johnson, the serial killer, live in that area?  (Wortley isn't far from Wharncliffe.)   He was born in 1947, which would have made him around 22 years old at the time of Jaqueline's death.  Perhaps she was his first victim?  I know that he tended to break in to women's homes and kill them there, but he may have been trying out different MO's early on, i.e. a crime of opportunity, prior to becoming more aggressive in finding his victims?

I believe that the first murder that he confessed to took place a few years later.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 07, 2011, 11:13:08 PM
As suggested earlier, following up on the attack on possible witness Mrs. Harrison, as documented in the LFP on Dec. 12th and 13th, 1969. Some very interesting developments here.

(The enlargement was unfortunately as good a reproduction as I could get of Cindy, Mrs. Harrison's dog.)



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 07, 2011, 11:16:45 PM
A final article from Dec. 13th, as well as status updates on Dec 15th and 17th. Will continue with more shortly.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 08, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Hi rKay:  Thank you for the new posts.  Any additions to Jackie's site are very much appreciated.  Interesting follow up stories I found in the London Free Press with regards to these current postings, occur on:  Monday, April 27, 1970, Tuesday, April 28, 1970, Monday, May 4, 1970, and Thursday, July 30 1970.  Interesting reading.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 08, 2011, 04:51:29 PM
Thank you jeb! It definitely helps when I have specific dates on which to focus. For instance, I have to admit, that all I had to go on for the (upcoming) articles on the fire department's findings on the Harrisons' fire were March 1973, which meant looking through each day's editions until I found them-- which of course had to be on March 30th-- which meant I went through over 80 newspapers to get to that particular story. Suddenly I REALLY appreciated when someone like yourself, or other articles, pointed to certain days to converge around.

I'll be adding those later tonight, and will definitely source out the others you've mentioned shortly.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 08, 2011, 10:14:32 PM
It occurs to me there's a chronological flow established in my postings that might be best to maintain. With that in mind,  I'll hold off jumping to 1973 just yet, and make sure I cover the intervening developments before that. Will get those shortly.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on June 08, 2011, 10:29:08 PM
Every time I come on to this thread I'm impressed all over again at the great amount of effort that is being made here. Thanks guys. Great work!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 09, 2011, 08:41:41 PM
Thanks to jeb for bringing these to my attention. Here's three articles dealing with the arrest of Glen Fryer, charged with Mrs. Harrison's attack.

The first two are April 27th & 28th, respectively. I'm afraid the legibility of this particular microfiche is the worst I've seen yet; I think the photographer must've been a wee bit in the bag when he focused these. (Somehow, it seems appropriate that the facts are getting darker and murkier at this point.)

I'll see if I can get better quality versions, but here's what the text says:


April 27th:

"Provincial police said Sunday night they have arrested a suspect in the stabbing attack on Mrs. Verdun Harrison, 43, of 171 Elgin St. London, on a lonely Westminster Township road Dec. 11.

Name of the suspect, released during a police news conference at OPP headquarters, was given as Glen Fryer, 37, of 598 Headley Dr., London.

Police said Mr. Fryer will appear today in provincial judge's court on a charge of wounding with intent to cause bodily harm.

Police said the man was arrested Sunday morning at his home. He is married with four children.

Information received about a month ago led to the arrest, police said.

Police said Mr, Fryer is principal of the Children's Psychiatric Research Institute school, Sanitorium Road.

Mrs,. Harrison was stabbed or cut 27 times while she sat in her small car on Hubrey Road, north of Highway 401. She had taken her dog to the scene for exercise.

A man sat in the car while she waited and attacked her. Her screams brought the dog which began attacking the man.

Det. Sgt. Dennis Alsop of London OPP said the woman had complained to police prior to the attack that she had been receiving threatening phone calls.

After the attack, police placed a guard at Mrs. Harrison's room at Victoria Hospital. Her home was kept under observation after she was released.

Police said that they are exploring the possibility that two men were involved in the attack on Mrs. Harrison."




April 28th:

"Glen Fryer, 37, principal of the Children's Psychiatric Research Institute School on Sanitorium Road was remanded in custody Monday to May 4 on a charge of wounding Mrs. Verdun Harrison, 43, of 171 Elgin St., Dec. 11.

Mr. Fryer of 598 Headley Dr., married and father of four children, was arrested by provincial police at his home Sunday.

He appeared before provincial Judge G. G. Marshman and was remanded in custody at the request of Assistant Crown Attorney J. H. Buchanan (?).

Mr. Buchanan said investigation is continuing and "will be complete with regard to the charge and any other that might be laid" within a week.

Mrs. Harrison has been under police surveillance since the incident at Hubrey Road, near Highway 401.

Police announced the arrest at a news conference at Ontario Provincial Police headquarters Sunday night.

Fryer has been principal at the Children's Psychiatric Research Institute School since September, 1964.

Dr. Benjamin Goldberg, superintendent at the Institute, said Fryer tendered his resignation two weeks ago and it had been accepted, effective Sept. 1.

Dr. Goldberg said the resignation was accepted for "administrative reasons." He also said Fryer was hired by the Ontario department of education."




The third article is from May 5th (also published in a different edition, on May 4th, but this is the better quality version, and much better than the previous two, so you can read it for yourself.)







(NOTE: August 1/2011-- have added the photo that appeared on page 1 of the LFP of Fryer, May 5, 1970 below.)


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 09, 2011, 08:48:36 PM
On July 30th, 1970, Fryer arrived in court. As the accompanying text said, the defence successfully obtained a ban on media reporting on evidence presented at the hearing, which might explain why there's no actual story with the photo.

I'm speculating that the defence in no way wanted the reasons Mrs. Harrison felt she had been attacked to be reported until absolutely necessary.

I've added an enlargement of the photo, but once again, reproduction is poor... I'll try to find a better copy.

More articles coming...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 10, 2011, 11:39:42 AM
Hi rKay and Crew:

The trial was reported in the London Free Press beginning on Monday, November 23, 1970.  The last article (I found) was published on Wednesday, December 23, 1970. 

Also, I feel that it is important to mention now, that the suspect was Acquitted.

Interesting to note:  There were 3 envelopes (I believe) submitted as evidence with regards to this trial.  They all should have had postage stamps affixed.  In the 70's postage stamps were usually licked.  Licked stamps provide DNA.  (Although the DNA would be 40-plus-years-old, I wonder if the envelopes still exist in some evidence room.)

Just a thought.

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 10, 2011, 12:22:58 PM
I just spent the morning copying everything that was in the London Room's crime files on the case, which was quite a bit. In fact far more than I thought-- could be more than a good two dozen articles, and some of them constitute a full newspaper page! I'm impressed with how much there is and how detailed the articles are.  Having said that, it'll take some doing to scan and join some of them but I'll try to roll them out shortly, and chronologically.

Jeb, as I do so, if you're aware that I missed something, please let me know and I'll try to find them via microfiche.

Either way, there's a lot to consider. Some very interesting testimony.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 10, 2011, 03:09:38 PM
Thank you for all your work rkay. I am looking forward (if that's possible) to reading everything on the case. Looking at the other articles about the kind of person she was that this is still a loss felt by a lot of people... people she worked with, children she babysat and of course family and friends. I often wonder what happened to these people. The little girl or the friend she worked with, the boyfriend or her family. It said her father was sick in hospital in Hamilton as well as her mother being ill in hospital. It's hard to imagine how they were strong enough to cope.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 10, 2011, 03:27:06 PM
Chickapey:

"On Tuesday, May 17th, 1970, my father passed on.  He'd gone back into Henderson General Hospital in Hamilton approximately one month earlier, and on the evening of May 16th, we got the call to come; he was dying.  My mother (who was now back at home with me), my sister Anne, and myself were all beside his bed when he crossed over.  The last words that he heard as he slipped into eternal unconsciousness were, "Look for Jackie, dad.""
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 10, 2011, 03:40:55 PM
Jeb, I have no words.  I am sorry for your loss sounds so lacking but I am truly sorry. From her picture alone, she looks like an amazing person. To hear the stories confirms it. I sincerely hope something can come of people coming together like this to solve the forgotten crimes.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 10, 2011, 03:45:39 PM
Chickapey:  From Ch 18 of my C.S. - Victims, Villains and Demons 

"My mother next to Jackie, was the ultimate victim.  Maybe even more so than Jackie.  When Jackie died a very large part of my mother died with her.  She was not only riddled with demons, but for a while she was actually taken hostage by them.  It was only her hatred for Jackie's killer and her resolve to find him and make him pay, that allowed her to escape back into the real world.  The fact that she later became a born-again Christian let her remain in the real world.  Sometime in 1979, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and she chose to keep her breast; she chose death over life; she chose to be with Jackie.  There are no demons where Jackie and my mother are." 

The demons refer to the "what-if guilt" that all family members of victims go through, and have.

Jackie's mother died May 19, 1981.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on June 10, 2011, 10:33:55 PM
So Glen Fryer was principal at CPRI and lived near it as well.  I was quite shocked to read this.  This is right by the spot where Jacueline Dunleavy's body was found and pretty close to where Frankie Jensen disappeared.  (I posted this info on JD's thread.)

I would like to read more about the Fryer/Harrison assault case.

Thanks again for your hard work in digging out these news articles rkay!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 10, 2011, 11:08:54 PM
The proximity of some of the other cases' important locations is quite a coincidence, isn't it.

As a side note, 598 Headley is on the northwest corner of Headley and Plymouth, in a quite narrow block immediately off Sanitorium. Mr. Fryer would've had a very short jaunt to get to work each day, if he wasn't driving.

So, the great benefit of having actual articles to photocopy rather than printing microfiche is that the legibility is tremendously improved, thankfully. To start, here's two articles from before which I'll 're-run' as they are now much, much easier to read. I suppose they'll also do as a quick recap to begin the trial coverage. The first is from Dec. 12, 1969 (with better photo quality), and April 27th, 1970:

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 10, 2011, 11:14:31 PM
The trial date is announced on Oct. 16, 1970.

The portrait of Mr. Fryer had no date on it so I'm not sure to which article it belongs. It seems to be an official portrait, likely from the CPRI school, so I imagine it was printed before the trial's beginning on Nov. 23rd.

Jeb, if there's anything not included before this, please let me know!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 10, 2011, 11:19:08 PM
The first coverage I found is from November 24. Mrs. Harrison's disturbing testimony was obviously the focus of the Crown's case. The following day the defence gets their turn.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 10, 2011, 11:30:41 PM
The trial reporting continues from Nov. 26-28.

It's clear that once Mrs. Harrison's testimony comes out, that there's a second, subtextual trial implicitly beginning, regarding Fryer's involvement in Jackie's case.

It's also interesting how strange things turn when Mrs. Harrison is revealed to have gone on the psychological attack herself, at the prompting of a minister...

As far as I can tell, this completes the first week of trial coverage.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 11, 2011, 09:18:40 AM
Chickapey:

Not that this has any bearing on anything, but Jackie's mother died on March 19, 1981, not May 19, 1981, as I previously posted.
Just keeping the facts accurate.

Thanks to the individual who brought this to my attention.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 11, 2011, 09:34:02 AM
thank you. Hopefully she was finally able to find peace.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 11, 2011, 09:29:35 PM
The second week of the Glen Fryer trial coverage begins, from December 1st-5th, 1970. This week offers more evidence as well as character witnesses and assessment of Mr. Fryer:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 11, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
More, from December 2nd to 5th:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 11, 2011, 09:40:17 PM
By the way, if anyone is having trouble following the through line of the trial from these individual articles, the LFP was fantastic in recording not only the Crown's and the defence's closing arguments, but more importantly, Judge Colter's full summary of the case, his analysis and verdict. He chronologically summarizes the evidence and events of the case very well, and makes some of the complexities easier to follow. That happens on December 23rd, which we'll get to.



(NOTE: PAGES 7 & 8 of this thread seem to have some sort of problem-- if you're reading this chronologically, you may want to avoid the odd white screens and jump ahead to page 9, where the articles were re-posted.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 12, 2011, 06:06:53 AM
To me, this seems painfully obvious  this man got away with an assault at the time . I'm interested to see if he was reinstated at CPRI after his trial or if he went to another school.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on June 12, 2011, 08:37:26 AM
Chick:  I do know that he wasn't reinstated at CPRI.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 12, 2011, 10:12:59 AM
Someone mentioned he had been principal at Alexandra school downtown and wondered where it was. I would guess it was the old Ecole Alexandra which moved out to Oakridge sometime in the late 60s or so. It was located somewhere on King St I believe and was also called the London French School for a bit.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 11:52:42 AM
So, the Alexandra school would've been what is now Ecole Marie-Curie on Oxford between Sanitorium and Hyde Park Rd (technically the school address is off Hunt Club Drive)?  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 12, 2011, 11:54:30 AM
Ecole Alexandra started out downtown on King St. It was also known as The London French School.. Some time in the late 60s or early 70s it moved to Oakridge on Hunt Club Dr. It was renamed Madam Curie in the early 90s
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 12, 2011, 11:58:27 AM
Ok checked and the school itself started in 1972 on King street but I can't find when it moved to Oakridge. The building itself was an older school and built in 1912.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
Sorry, the King St. building or the Hunt Club one?

And does that mean that Alexandra P.S. as referred to here must have then been a different school altogether that either vanished or has since been renamed?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 12, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
Someone had mentioned or asked where Alexandra school was as it no longer exists. It had been downtown on King Street starting in 1912. In 1972 it became a French school and renamed to Ecole Alexandra. Shortly after, it moved to Hunt Club Dr and was Ecole Alexandra until the early 90s when it was named Madame Curie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 01:51:25 PM
Gotcha! Now I get it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
The case continues with the third week, with LFP articles from December 8th to 12th. I didn't find an article for December 10th, as well as another day in the following week, but I will go back and search, as well as get a better copy of the Dec. 9th article, and re-post.

Also, this is where the page designer starts driving me crazy with his Tetris-style layouts...

(Full disclosure: the Fryer pic did not actually get included on the 8th, I just wanted to use up some of the white space. Good to have a reminder anyway.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 11:06:56 PM
Seem to be having some difficulty getting the articles posted on the board tonight-- just running into a white screen once it's supposedly loaded?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 12, 2011, 11:26:50 PM
Can't seem to see page 7 at all tonight? Not sure what's going on there, much less post articles. If an admin has any idea can you let me know? (I can see my last post below my reply box)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 13, 2011, 05:26:18 AM
I am having the same problem, rkay... no page 7 and it's now 7 30 am
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 07:32:00 AM
Still getting only a white screen for page 7, though I can see chickapey's reply underneath if I try to reply myself from another page in the thread.

EDIT: OK, getting a page 8 now, but still nothing for page 7. Has it been corrupted somehow?

I can re-post the articles that were on that page if need be.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: gibbons on June 13, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
Hi Rkay,

I am also getting the white page for the 7th page.  Thanks for struggling along with this!

Gibbons
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 09:00:52 AM
It's especially strange since some of the articles deal with strange goings-on described at the trial-- things being tampered with or disappearing. And now a page of the thread has followed suit!

I've sent a PM to Chris and debbiec to see if they can resolve the problem, or if I should just re-post and continue onwards.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on June 13, 2011, 10:48:57 AM
The mystery continues.  Where is page 7?  ???

We're all hanging onto the edge of our seats, waiting for the rest of the articles!  It's like a show you're interested in and then you find out it's 'to be continued'....

Thanks for your continued persistence rkay! 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 01:14:45 PM
Alright, ignoring the bizarre loss of page 7 of this thread, I'll re-post the articles that were on that page and continue onwards.

Dec. 2-5th, 1970:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 01:20:03 PM
Continuing on, here's the third week of the trial, from December 8th -12th.

There wasn't an article for the 10th in the London room's clippings file on the case, so I'll search for that (along with another couple of dates) to see if there in fact were stories for those dates and insert them later. As well, I'll try to improve the 9th's (slightly folded) reprinting.

Also, for posterity's sake, the portrait of Glen Fryer here was not included with the Dec. 8th article. It's just that with this week, the LFP page designer went crazy with the layout and I wanted to fill at least some of the white space with something!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 01:52:36 PM
December 9th:

(Edit: seems to be an issue with the attachemnt-- I'll leave this as a placeholder for the moment until I can fix it)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 01:53:53 PM
December 11-12:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 01:58:08 PM
Gah! White screen again for this page.

OK, as far as I can tell, it seems to be something about the December 9th article-- every time I've tried to attach it it kills the page. Must be significant somehow.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:07:08 PM
OK, I've figured out that it's something to do with the article I've been posting for December 9th. When I posted it a second time on the thread, it killed page 8! The funny thing is, I left the Dec 9 post as a placeholder, before attaching the actual article, I was able to get the following articles for Dec 11-12 posted just fine on the following thread. So I'm not sure why that's happening, but clearly I need to take a look at that particular attachment.

I think I'll bump up the page with some dummy posts to get to page 9 this time, and then repost again.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:07:33 PM
Bump.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:08:01 PM
bump again
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:08:23 PM
one more
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:08:47 PM
bump again
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:09:13 PM
last one, i hope
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:09:34 PM
OK, hopefully I'll have learned the lesson here.

In case you're reading this now, and trying to understand why you can't access pages 7-8, something about one of my attachments (for Dec. 9th) seems to be causing each page it's been posted on to crash. (EDIT: the attachment has been altered and that seems to have done the trick.)

So, I'm re-posting what had been on pages 7-8 all over again, and if an admin can check into why it's being problematic, perhaps the duplicate posts can be removed.

It's especially strange since some of the articles deal with strange goings-on described at the trial-- things being tampered with or disappearing. And now a page of the thread has followed suit!

Apologies to everyone!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:14:57 PM
Dec. 2-5th, 1970:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:16:14 PM
Continuing on, here's the third week of the trial, from December 8th -12th.

There wasn't an article for the 10th in the London room's clippings file on the case, so I'll search for that (along with another couple of dates) to see if there in fact were stories for those dates and insert them later. As well, I'll try to improve the 9th's (slightly folded) reprinting.

Also, for posterity's sake, the portrait of Glen Fryer here was not included with the Dec. 8th article. It's just that with this week, the LFP page designer went crazy with the layout and I wanted to fill at least some of the white space with something!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:21:43 PM
December 9th and 10th...

(I may try to get a better copy of the 9th, due to its slight folding.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:23:28 PM
December 11-12, 1970. The third week of the trial concludes with a cliffhanger- the Crown has new evidence to introduce:
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 02:32:02 PM
By the way, if anyone is having trouble following the course of the trial from the individual articles-- and it is quite convoluted-- then you'll appreciate the LFP coverage for the trial's conclusion.

Not only do they print the Crown and the defence's closing arguments, but, more importantly, they print the entirety of Judge Colter's summation and verdict, which takes up about a entire page and a half of the newspaper. The judge does an excellent job of recapping all the twists and turns of this complex trial, in chronological order, along with his analysis of each piece of evidence and testimony and their relative worth to the case, as well as providing the reasoning for his verdict.


EDIT: For whatever reason, when pages 7-8 of this thread were wiped out,  we lost trial coverage for December 8th through December 12th. I've come back from the future to insert it here.

Also, for posterity's sake, the portrait of Glen Fryer here was not included with the Dec. 8th article. It's just that with this week, the LFP page designer went crazy with the layout and I wanted to fill at least some of the white space with something...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 13, 2011, 08:40:37 PM

(EDIT: added December 12th article below . Apolgies for the backwards order.)
o
The trial opens into the fourth week with the Crown's new evidence: Witnesses claiming that Fryer was also at the store on the following night, October 4th-- the night Jackie disappeared:

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 13, 2011, 09:35:32 PM
I am assuming that this was not a jury trial because none is mentioned in any of the articles.  It said in one of the articles that the oldest daughter went to the Mount for school There are no mentions of his kids names.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on June 13, 2011, 09:44:58 PM
Glen Fryer chose trial by judge, so there was no jury. To the best of my recollection his children are later mentioned in a LFP article. They are Glenda-Ruth, Richard, John & Cathy.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 14, 2011, 05:50:46 AM
Cathie Fryer was class of 1977 at Oakridge
No mention of the other two. I'd imagine they must have gone through hell at school during this trial not to mention what they likely already endured at home
Thank you for uploading all the articles too! I'd love to get a bit of time in that London Room but I can't bring a 4 and 5 year old in LOL
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 14, 2011, 10:52:21 AM
December 16th to 18th, 1970. The defence responds to the new Crown evidence. Interestingly, the Crown was prepared to bring forward evidence to counter the defence's response to the new witness accounts about Fryer's presence in the store on October 4, but the judge did not allow them to continue further along this path, as the trial was based on Mrs. Harrison's witness claim for October 3rd, and technically his presence on the 4th was collateral to the charge at hand.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 17, 2011, 06:06:38 PM
Big coverage on the last day of the trial, December 19, 1970.

The image of the courtroom scene took up a half-page of the paper, above the beginning of the defence summation. (I see in piecing it together, that I missed a fraction of it when copying. For posterity's sake, I'll present a complete version in the near future.)

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 17, 2011, 06:07:55 PM
The defence summation.

(Crown's coming shortly.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 17, 2011, 10:38:09 PM
And the Crown's final arguments.

Tomorrow, the verdict.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 18, 2011, 09:46:51 PM
December 22, 1970:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 18, 2011, 09:56:00 PM
Dec. 23, 1970:

At long last, the promised summation by Judge Colter. As I said before, I think this is required reading for anyone interested in this case, as he summarizes the evidence as presented from both sides, assesses its worth and gives the reason for his verdict. The difficulty in arriving at his judgment is evident.




(Pardon the slight 'patchwork' quality; I've had to piece it together from several scans. The original article itself was dog-eared, with part of the headline cut, and the enormous size of it means the resolution has to be lowered to meet the board's attachment requirements. If anyone has any difficulty reading it, I could probably break it up into smaller, but more legible sections.)

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 18, 2011, 09:58:51 PM
The December 23rd coverage also includes an interview with Glen Fryer and discusses the impact the trial has had on him and his family, including threats:



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 18, 2011, 10:25:53 PM
Interestingly, another edition of the Free Press contained an extra picture of Fryer in his interview, which I've included for posterity's sake.

Also, here's a better image of Judge W.E.C. Colter, as well as the courtroom sketch from Dec. 19th.

 I've gone back and included an article from December 14, which contains no new real information, but acknowledges that this has become a lengthy trial and shows that the public was interested to keep up, even when nothing had transpired over the weekend. If I find anything else, I'll insert it chronologically.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on June 19, 2011, 12:14:26 PM
Thank you so much, rkay, for posting these articles covering the Fryer trial.  As a 20 year old working split shifts for the telephone company I never had time to read the London Free Press and I wasn't even aware of this trial or what happened to Mrs. Verdun Harrison.  It wasn't until I was much older that I started reading the paper every day.

I believe that the outcome of this trial would have been a conviction had there been a jury deciding this man's fate.  Having the children present in court was a brilliant move on Fryer's part as this must have garnered him some sympathy.  Something became very clear to me when I saw the photo of the Fryer family coming down the court house steps on the day Fryer was acquitted.  Without accusing Mrs. Fryer, I understand that if she did indeed perjure herself by coroborating a false alibi it would not have been for Fryer's sake but for the sake of her children.  The home life of these children may already have been dismal having to deal with their mother's emotional state in the past and her suicide attempt.  Perhaps Mr. Fryer was domineering and controlling and life could have been hell for that family.  This is just a supposition because on the other hand he might have been a wonderful husband and father.  However, the family doctor testified at the trial that their's was not a happy home.  One thing is for certain - most mothers will do anything to protect their children, even lie in court.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 19, 2011, 12:25:07 PM
I completely agree GG. First, thank you for posting all the articles. After reading them, it's obvious that justice was not served.  It fills me with a overwhelming sense of dread and sadness. There is far more to the story than just this.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on June 20, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
Quote- chickapey "It fills me with an overwhelming sense of dread and sadness."

You took the words right out of my mouth Chickapey.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 23, 2011, 04:49:14 PM
I've decided to forego my chronological approach and jump ahead to 1973, to continue, or to be more exact, end the story of Mrs. Harrison.

From the London Free Press, evening edition, on January 8, 1973, followed by the full story on January 9th.

Note the family member discussing how the Harrisons had continued to be harassed: Cindy, the hero dog, poisoned; Mrs. Harrison's car doused in gasoline and lit on fire in their driveway...



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 23, 2011, 04:59:08 PM
January 10, 1973. Autopsies reveal that the family died of smoke inhalation.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 23, 2011, 05:11:59 PM
March 30, 1973.

The investigation concludes: findings indicate that the fire seemed to have started accidentally, likely from a cigarette on the furniture, around 5 a.m. There were no indications found of a break-in, or any accelerant might have been used. The wounds on the family appeared to be consistent with stumbling around in the smoke. In essence, the fire department could not report finding anything suspicious.

(Apologies for the quality of the scans-- as I may have mentioned before, 1973 seems a terrible year for microfiche. I've tried to clean them up a little, and have included two different copies below in case one is difficult to read.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 23, 2011, 05:14:32 PM
May I also note that January 8th is one day shy of the fifth anniversary of Jacqueline Dunleavy's murder. A curious coincidence.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 23, 2011, 05:38:13 PM
I don't even know what to say. How do three people and a dog die in a fire that supposedly starts with a cigarette? How is it that no one manages to get out? It's not like they were in a huge house... a small house with a back and front door, a dog who would have sounded the alarm way before anything got THAT out of hand. This is all completely unbelievable to start and to top it off this? Something was definitely going on behind the scenes here for someone to get away with all this.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 23, 2011, 06:07:41 PM
It does seem very curious. All that can really be said is that the inquest found no evidence of anything suspicious. (Besides the fact that a house burned down and killed a family, that is.)


Pulling the suggestions in the story together, the implicit cause seems to be that Richard stayed up late watching TV and left a cigarette burning before going to bed. I don't know what kind of furniture they had, but I wonder how long that material would take to ignite and burn out of control, and how close the cigarette butt would have to be placed in order for it to even begin. So, if the fire was out of control by 5 am, how fast did it start?  How late did Richard stay up smoking before retiring to his room? I assume it must have been pretty late, and the fire happened quickly, if the fire and smoke became deadly at the time it did.

This happened on an early Monday morning. I'd be interested to know what time he had to go to work at the Produce Supply in Lambeth. I think what I'm asking is, assuming his job started at some point early in the day (especially being farm-related), would he likely have stayed up that far into the wee hours smoking and watching TV, to leave a still burning cigarette before retiring?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 23, 2011, 06:53:35 PM
All valid points. The family room was a new addition so I'd assume they would have had new furniture. Being the 70s... wouldn't it have been fire repellent?  The mother was in the son's room at the front of the house which would lead me to believe she made it from her room to there to escape but the dog was in the back bedroom. I would have thought the dog would have stayed with the family unless it was done in first.

The poor daughter too. I can't imagine how she would have felt after everything that had already gone on then this.

I wonder how in depth the inquiry would have been back in the day?

Still wonder what became of the Fryer family.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on June 23, 2011, 08:18:03 PM
So no one (including the dog) appeared to be drugged.  I find it difficult to believe that someone from outside the family started the fire intentionally, as they would have had to get close to the house and the dog would have started barking. 

It does seem incredibly surprising/frustrating that none of them could get out of that small little house.  I presume it was because they were sleeping and that they were almost completely overcome by smoke by the time they woke up.

We had a fire in our house when I was a young teen.  It can be very subtle and quiet when it starts.  The fire was in my grandfather's room (a modified laundry room) and the contractor had not properly wired it.  My grandfather's bed caught on fire. Luckily no one was hurt.  I wonder if there were electrical problems in their new family room that cause the couch to catch on fire.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on June 23, 2011, 10:25:57 PM
An unrelated fact:  I won't give my source but I believe it to be reliable.

"In September of 2003, I decided to track down Sharon Harrison in order to find out what, if anything, she could tell me about her family... Sharon had lived with her grandmother from (about) the time she first started attending school.  The grandmother died shortly after the fire and Sharon, devastated by the loss of her entire family, committed suicide shortly after this." 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on June 24, 2011, 04:09:09 PM
A comprehensive Google search might answer some of your questions, chickapey.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on June 24, 2011, 09:00:38 PM
I googled the name Glen Fryer and came up with a website called  RTO/The Toronto Retired Teachers.  A Glen Fryer is listed amongst  a group of retirees in the year 1994.  Fryer must have moved to Toronto and continued teaching.  He would have enjoyed anonimity in such a large city.  Many murders and missing women in Toronto during the 80's and 90's - makes you wonder.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on June 30, 2011, 06:50:27 AM
There is a Glen Fryer listed as the president of this club on the link below, if you click on his picture you get a [df file with a bio of him that mentions he was teacher in London and then various other places around Toronto.  When I compare the face with that in some of the old pictures on this thread I am fairly sure it is him

http://www.citroenvie.com/Citroen_Autoclub_Canada/CAC_Member_Profiles.html
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 30, 2011, 08:04:05 AM
Since he's been been acquitted, he's been acquitted. It's just too bad the judge even seems to have had some doubt. I wonder if he'd give his DNA to truly rule himself out
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on June 30, 2011, 08:44:12 PM
Freeman...welcome to our thread. Obviously, you have spent some time reading the case facts & we appreciate the link you have provided to let us know what Glen Fryer has been occupied with since his move to Toronto. That is definitely the same Glen Fryer we have been following in the LFP trial reporting of the stabbing case of Betty Harrison. And yes, Chickapey, he was aquitted of stabbing Mrs. Harrison, basically because of his wife's alibi.
Hopefully Freeman will be generous enough to continue to post any further information he uncovers as all info is greatly appreciated in our quest for truth & facts regarding this unresolved case.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on July 01, 2011, 06:27:35 AM
Hi Freeman:  Welcome to Jackie's site.  Did you know Jackie.  If so, as a family member, I would be very interested in any comments or stories you wish to share.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 01, 2011, 07:38:37 AM
Jesa... I agree with you.  Hard to believe someone can be acquitted mainly because of a wife's alibi but here we have it.

Also... does anyone remember where Maple St was? It isn't listed in London maps now but I see Jacqueline's boyfriend lived on it.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 02, 2011, 07:31:19 AM
Mr. Fryer can also be seen in the Christmas photos on the Auto Club website as recently as Dec. 2010. His wife doesn't seem to be in the pictures after 2007; I don't know if that indicates whether she has passed away or just happened to be absent those days.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 03, 2011, 12:36:34 AM
Before the January 1973 tragedy with the Harrisons' fire...

... the apartment building at 133 Elmwood suffered a terrible fire that sadly claimed four lives, including three children, on November 16, 1972. This was where Jackie English lived with her family until September 1969, the month before she died.

More notably, this was the location near where some of Jackie's personal possessions (the contents of her missing purse), which included her monogrammed pencils and perfume bottle, were discovered in late October 1969 (see reply #54 of this thread). As jeb has noted, the belongings were found by the old London Teachers' College, about 100 feet away.

The original reason was thought to be a grease fire, but the Nov. 18th article says the inspector was unable to determine the exact cause of the blaze, suspecting that it might have started "near the head of a lower bunk bed".

Either way, a curious coincidence in a case that seems fraught with them.

(Apologies again for the lousy quality of the microfiche scans.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 03, 2011, 12:38:25 AM
Further coverage of the Elmwood Ave. fire:

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 03, 2011, 09:10:47 AM
Tragic.  What a weird place for a fire to start. They must have just knocked the house down because I think this is an empty lot now. As a teenager, I worked in that neighbourhood (late 80s) and I remember my boss (who had lived there his entire life) once mentioned something about it.  There seemed to be a lot of rumours surrounding this fire for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 03, 2011, 09:12:45 AM
You're right chickapey, it is a vacant lot now.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 03, 2011, 07:58:44 PM
Thanks rkay for providing the story on the Elmwood fire.  What a terrible loss of life.  I can't imagine 40 people living in an old, wooden house.  If the entire attic, including where the Grey's lived, was engulfed in flames, I find it amazing that fire officials could point to the end of a bunk bed yet also state that the cause of the fire is unknown.  It is interesting that none of the children suffered burns, which could denote that one of them was playing with matches. But I guess many things are  possible in that kind of scenario.

Have Faith

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: gibbons on July 04, 2011, 06:37:10 AM
The investigators, at the time, would not have the benefit of the various relevant scientific advances in fire forensics.  It would be more of a common-sense approach to looking at the scene...and then based on their experiences they would draw what they felt was a reasonable conclusion into which the evidence would find its best fit.  My guess is that they would not have a hard time identifying the role of accelerants, and finding where these may have been placed (if an arson).  It is quite possible that, in these older buildings, there were typical patterns of fire progression.  The big question: did the fire start inside or from outside would be the most significant one to answer to rule-out most garden-variety cases of arson.   If I remember from  back then, London had a number of arson cases - several of which involved bakeries and another group involved laundromats.  So, it would make me think that fire investigators would certainly have had their antennae's primed to look for evidence of arson.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 06, 2011, 07:12:55 PM
Thanks Gibbons, I didn't recall the other cases of arson. In a bizarre coincidence, three months after the Harrisons fire, Frankie Jensen's family furniture store at 193 King St. was gutted by fire, at 1:34 am on April 10, 1973.  A 24 year old man was convicted of arson in that case.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 07, 2011, 09:03:59 AM
RE: POLICE COMPOSITE DRAWING (input from victim, Mrs. Harrison)

It would be interesting to get people's opinion on the likeness of the composite sketch compared to the photos of GF.

The composite is posted on the thread, reply#43, April 24th, and  photos of GF are posted on reply #132, June 18th. ( I found it helpful to print the composite).

Thanks,

Have Faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on July 07, 2011, 09:26:54 AM
I thought it might help to put these pictures up together for comparison sake. Hope I've got this right.

#1 is the suspect picture
#2 Glen Fryer
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 07, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
Thanks debbiec,

Yes, those are the pictures as you describe them.  They do come up a bit clearer on the original uploads on reply #43 and #132.  One trait that the victim noted was that he had protruding ears, which the artist did not appear to draw in, but this description was documented.

 It must be nice to have computer skills :-)

Have Faith


edited: to include the protruding ears omission from the sketch
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on July 07, 2011, 12:39:05 PM

When posting the pictures I did feel also that there were a lot of similarities. Shape of the face stands out to me, but also the features have a very similar appearance. Take a look at the front view of the nose.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 10, 2011, 01:30:52 PM
Take this for what it is, but I have done a little Photoshopping work on the suspect sketch. With all due respect to the original police artist, I think the individual elements, as described by Mrs. Harrison, have been included, but the proportions have been put together oddly. As has been stated in the trial coverage, Mrs. Harrison didn't feel that the sketch was accurately done.

So, what I've done here is first remove whatever noise from the microfiche I could to clean it up-- though I'd like to see the original to see what has been detailed that is difficult to see here. Secondly, I reduced the size of the eyes by about 10-12%, as clearly they were drawn very large. Thirdly, I nudged the nose and lips together up slightly to account for where the jawline had been placed, as well as in relation to the now slightly reduced eyes. Lastly, I enlarged the ears, as Mrs. Harrison said that the person she saw had protruding ears, and the artist didn't capture that effectively.

Like I said, take it for what it is...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Trouble445 on July 10, 2011, 03:23:41 PM
Wow rkay, great clean up job! you're good! the photo appears clearer and more chances to identify who it may be now.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on July 10, 2011, 05:58:39 PM
Hi rkay:  I said in my original post "a handful of suspects."  I'll PM you my next POI. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 10, 2011, 07:30:53 PM
Wow... well done rkay. It's much clearer and less cartoon like
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on July 12, 2011, 05:31:32 PM
My mother attended the trial from start to finish.  At the conclusion of the trial she (and I) both became personal friends of the Fryer family.  She (we) did not become friends with the Harrisons.  My mother believed with 100% certainty that Glen Fryer was in fact, being framed.  There was no doubt in her mind.  (And she investigated the case when the facts were fresh.)  My mother was a pretty sharp cookie.  Our society today is "filled with stories" of past wrongful convictions. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 17, 2011, 03:43:38 PM
There are a lot of wrongful convictions but websites like this wouldn't be around if there were a lot of people who have slipped through the cracks.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Desespere on July 20, 2011, 07:29:20 PM
I have read this thread many times, from beginning to end and was very interested in all the articles posted and think it is awesome people are willing to go to the library and search archives and do all that needs to be done to get them posted here. Thank you so much.

In reading the articles about Fryer and his subsequent acquittal in the other case I never really got the sense he had been seriously considered a POI for Jacqueline English's murder. But one thing did strike me is the description of Fryer and then his actual photos. I have hesitated to post this here for several weeks but decided to post the link to a post on little Susan Cadieux's thread to see if others might see some similarity to the composite sketch in Susan's case and Fryer's actual photos.

Not that the person in the sketch is Fryer, but, at least to me, the sketch is far closer a match to Fryer than the composite in Jacqueline's case here. I was wondering if anyone else sees a resemblance.

Between 1956 and 1969 there was a large number of murders of young people in London, ON. Almost all of them remained unsolved to this day. The London murders in this time frame are quite unique in terms of clusters of varying types. There isn't really another city in all of Canada that has such a high number of unsolved murders during this same time period. But there are quite a few spread around Ontario during that time period. 

I apologize ahead of time as I am not able to form an opinon on Fryer's acquittal, but an acquittal means he was not found guilty and can't be considered guilty of the crime he was accused. I also go from the impression Fryer wasn't really considered a viable suspect in Jacqueline's murder. I am just struck by composite sketch in Susan's case, compared to the photos and description of Fryer from the articles posted here.

Here's the link to the composite on Susan Cadieux's case:
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=721.msg24887#msg24887

I will try to post the actual picture here, it might not work so the link will take you directly to the picture.
(http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=721.0;attach=567;image)(http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=709.0;attach=4668;image)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on July 21, 2011, 05:22:52 AM
Oh boy, Des....I agree that the composite looks just like the pics.  Very much so.   hmmm 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Desespere on July 21, 2011, 03:12:07 PM
Yes, it is striking. Does anyone agree it would be worth contacting London Police Service to make mention of the similarity? I am not sure about the subsequent sketch in Susan Cadieux's case, it is not very similar to the first sketch, therefore, not very similar to Fryer. It is confusing when the second sketch is introduced.

I stated in Susan's thread I would post all composites and the photos of Fryer and Kalichuk in one post to compare. It might be worth posting those same five pics here too. I don't want to clog up the thread but if anyone else thinks it is a good use of post space, I will do that.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on July 21, 2011, 06:02:11 PM
I really do think it is worth contacting the London Police about this likeness.    To be honest, I don't usually see a whole lot of likenesses when I look at composites and POI's....but this stands out to me as being the same person.   All the pics together wouldn't hurt either, but I am already sold on these 2 being the same person.  ;)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 22, 2011, 12:29:26 PM
Maybe I am missing something here but the Cadieux murder was 14 years before the English/Harrison events and Fryer was in hi mid 30's in 1970. My guess would be that a picture of Fryer in his early 20's ( as he would of been in 1956)would be a poor match for the 1956  sketch, also the second ( and much superior) sketch in the Cadieux case has no resemblance to Fryer and the person was described as looking and acting like a street person, Fryer was educated and well dressed.  I don't think it would the credibility of this group any good to send this to the police without much more evidence
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 22, 2011, 01:45:31 PM
Of course the suspect in P. Merle's murder is the "Porn Man".  I don't yet know how to transfer an article from one page to another.  Maybe someone can do that, so that the info is on Merle's site.  See:  Re: Project Angel Jan. 1997 to June 2000,
reply #2 (July 5/10) by member "wantedwanted". The article is by the Toronto Star dated April 2, 1992.  See near the bottom...""He was the one that got away".

The way I read this article, the Sun is attributing the deaths of P. Merle, Jacquie English and Soraya O'connell to the Porn Man.

This was posted in the Pricilla Merle thread a while back, I haven't seen it mentioned here
Here is a bit more of it

He was the one who got away.

Detectives nicknamed him the "Porn Man" and privately admit they may have bungled the investigation into the suspected serial killer who operated over a three-year-period in the Port Stanley, Stratford and Tillsonburg areas.

Police had been watching the man for years; he had a long criminal record and had been in psychiatric hospitals.

They closed in on him when they started finding the body parts of one of his suspected victims, Priscilla Merle, in 1972, near Port Stanley, a small town on the shores of Lake Erie.

Merle's left arm was floating in Kettle Creek. Soon after, her upper torso was discovered near a marina in the same area.

Police believe the body of the 21-year-old woman had been cut up with a 35-centimetre (14-inch) power saw.

The separated mother of one had last been seen alive getting into a station wagon, a vehicle that resembled the one driven by the Porn Man.

Merle's death was the last in a series of murders starting in October, 1969, with the slaying of Jacqueline English, whose nude body was found floating in Big Otter Creek, near Tillsonburg.

The 15-year-old had been raped and murdered after hitchhiking home from her job as a waitress. Less than a year later, another 15- year-old, Soraya O'Connell, disappeared after hitchhiking home from a youth centre in London.

Her skeletal remains were found four years later in a garbage dump south of Stratford.

Police raided the Porn Man's home, where they made a grotesque discovery in his basement.

There were bags of feces stored in a chest, human waste he had collected for some bizarre reason. Along with the feces were pictures of naked children.

But the evidence wasn't strong enough to take to court, and he wasn't arrested.

Soon after, the Porn Man moved, and was last believed to be in the Toronto area.

In their eagerness to arrest the Porn Man, detectives now admit they may have moved in on him too soon.

"Looking back on the case, perhaps we could have played it differently. Perhaps tailed him more," said one detective.

"But one thing's for sure. After he left town . . . the killings stopped."

This the link to the original article which is in the Toronto Star in 1992

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/454302991.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+02%2C+1992&author=John+Duncanson+and+Nick+Pron+TORONTO+STAR&pub=Toronto+Star&desc=Fourth+of+a+five-part+series.+Elusive+killers+leave+cold+trail+for+police&pqatl=google
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 22, 2011, 02:20:53 PM
Freeman,

Yes, this part of the Toronto Star series should be included on this thread, and also on Soraya O'Connell's thread.  Thanks for adding it.






edit..the Toronto Star, not Toronto Sun
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Desespere on July 22, 2011, 03:28:44 PM
Maybe I am missing something here but the Cadieux murder was 14 years before the English/Harrison events and Fryer was in hi mid 30's in 1970. My guess would be that a picture of Fryer in his early 20's ( as he would of been in 1956)would be a poor match for the 1956  sketch, also the second ( and much superior) sketch in the Cadieux case has no resemblance to Fryer and the person was described as looking and acting like a street person, Fryer was educated and well dressed.  I don't think it would the credibility of this group any good to send this to the police without much more evidence

True, the second sketch that was released in 1971 bears no resemblance, in my opinion, to the earlier sketch and therefore no resemblance, in my opinon, to Fryer. I have no clue how the second sketch came to be 15 years later but can not say one is superior to the other. Both are very detailed, very good sketches. But they are also very unlike each other. May I ask Freeman why you state the later sketch as superior to the earlier one?

The credibility of this group I don't think would come into question with a submission such as this, as I would personally submit it. I would like to point out that once I contacted London Police Service about Susan's case and the detective was very good with replies and follow-ups. Plus, a second detective (now retired from the LPS) contacted me via PM to just say how hard they worked on the task force and that he was familiar with the case. He is the one who told me Susan's brother, Michael, had passed away. So some are watching anyway. I will not submit the idea of the sketch at this time considering there are other people looking into this here. Great stuff.

Thank you for your feedback everyone. Good luck, I hope something can come of all your work.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 25, 2011, 11:56:46 AM
I did not realize the second sketch was from such a late date.  I said it was superior in that it was a a real sketch with more detail while the first was patchwork from a police sketch kit.  I acknowledge that the earlier sketch would probably more true to the recollection of those involved.

However in the Susan Cadiuex thread "Desespere" posted that:

"There is a brief description of the man in the composite, in the site that Des provided  www.findagrave.com

He was tall, thin, unshaven, 35-40 years old.  He was wearing a Russian-style fur or wool hat, a light tan or brown overcoat and galoshes with heavy buckles."


Fryer was 21-23 at this point and either a university student or teacher and unlikely to be wandering around town unshaven. So although there is a resemblance between the 1956 sketch and 1970 photo of Fryer  I have strong reservations about it being more than coincidental.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 25, 2011, 12:36:26 PM
Hi Freeman and Gibbons,

I don't mean to split hairs here, but if GF was 38 in Dec. 1970 (trial date),  he would have been at least 24 in Jan. 1956. I can try to track down the priests names, at St. Mary's Church in 1956.




Age: 23-25 in 1956
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 25, 2011, 02:30:34 PM
Hi Gibbon
I don't believe that Porn Man and Fryer were supposed to be the same guy, the article says that Porn Man left shortly after the search of his home, I think Fryer's wife and kids would have noticed the feces collection in the basement and that some of the articles from that time might have mentioned it. It is hard to tell much about Porn Man from that article but he had an extensive criminal record ( I assume a man with Fryer's position had a clean record) and spent time in psychiatric hospitals unless this is odd way  of describing Fryer's job at CPRI.

I posted the Porn Man article to this thread because the its clear the police that the reporter talked to thought there was a link between JE, SO and P. Merle's cases and the Porn Man.  I don't know of any relevance to SC , but I just checked and didn't see it posted there
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 25, 2011, 04:43:11 PM
Take into consideration the first sketch was made from the description of children. Who provided the second description? It does look like two different sketch artists did the sketches too.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on July 26, 2011, 10:05:51 PM
Back then it would have been very difficult for children to differentiate between people in their twenties, thirties or older as fashions and hairstyles where pretty much the same for all ages.  I remember that my grade two teacher, Miss Hoy, seemed to me to be as old as my mother in 1957 (early thirties) but thinking back on it now I realise that Miss Hoy was probably right out of teachers college and only about 20 or 21 years old.

The London Normal School was the name of the college located at 165 Elmwood Ave E.  Most teachers working in London at the time of Susan's murder would have had one year of training there after grade 13 (a BA wasn't needed back then).  The college was closed in 1956 when the new London Teachers College opened at the University of Western Ontario.  The building at 165 Elmwood Ave E was then operated as a junior highschool for several years until it was converted to the London Board of Education headquarters.  It has already been reported on this forum that some of JE's personal items were found on the grounds of the Education Centre.  Would this be because of the proximity to where JE used to live on Elmwood Ave or could it be someone returning to their old stomping grounds?       
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 27, 2011, 12:17:05 PM
Just to clarify, I think the police believed there was a connection between Porn Man and the cases of Jacqueline English(JE), Priscilla Merles(PM) and Soraya O'connell(SO)  but not Susan Cadieux(SC), I think the short forms has caused a bit of confusion between SC and SO.

I think a good point has been raised,I know that I would have had a difficult time with guessing the age of an adult at when I was under 10 years and there did seem to be more uniform types of clothing across wide age range in the 50's than there is today.  I do note that the second sketch which has been described as being from 15 years after the murder is labeled on the SC thread as being from 1964, still 8 years after.  The caption on the picture says that police had  a Free Press staff artist go back to the descriptions in the original interviews with her brothers, that sounds less accurate than a sketch drawn as soon as possible after the incident.  The belief he was derelict may also have stemmed from one of priests  idea that the stranger could have been a street person who  came by looking for a handout.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 27, 2011, 12:46:14 PM
To further clarify although I see the evidence against GF as strong (at least as far as the attack on Mrs Harrison, which would have been pointless unless there was a connection to the JE murder),  the police it seems had other suspects and theories. If GF killed JE then he also could have been a serial killer/rapist and responsible for some of the other unsolved crimes such as SO, PM, Jackie Dunleavy, Frankie Jensen etc although I know of no evidence connecting him to any other crime, and the same could be said for Porn Man.  I do see it as more likely that there would be connections between the cluster of cases in the late 60's and early 70's than to the 1956 SC case, imho.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 29, 2011, 06:49:20 AM
I am just throwing this idea out there for discussion.

Robert Masters  has come up recently on the Sylvia Fink thread ( he killed her in 1961 when he was 13) and was sent to reformatory in December 1969 for the August 1969 attack of a woman and he is also discussed on the Donna Awcock thread, .  The description of this man's past in the Dec 1969 article that was posted  on the SF thread matches up to some degree with that of the sketchy history of Porn Man here, history of psychiatric problems, known to the police etc.  He was sentenced to 2 years in Dec 1969 since his juvenile crime was not allowed to be considered and he may have been released early enough to have kill SO in Aug 1970, to have been involved in JE murder he would have to have been out on bail in the fall of 1969.  The attack he was charged in 1969 with was not a rape, it was an offensive suggestion followed by an attempted groping so he might have allowed out on bail.  If you read the SF article it is clear the Judge and the defence attorney believe it is only a matter a time before he reoffends but are constrained by the fact he is legally sane.

Anyway he doesn't have the direct connections the GF has to this case but he does have an established violent and sexual assaultive history and was active in the months around the time of JE's murder.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2011, 09:25:33 PM
A minor follow-up to the chronological accounting of the Fryer trial.

This was the first picture that appeared in the LFP of Fryer, on the bottom of the front page, May 5, 1970. This would also be the first picture that Mrs. Magee saw of him, which was mentioned in her later identification of him at the Met on Oct. 4, 1969.

Just wanted to add it for posterity, and I'll insert it in with the earlier articles as well.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Tim Brook on August 12, 2011, 06:09:49 AM
Hi I am new here. My connection here is via my mother, Edith, she is 76 now but in 1969 she was a struggling, single mom (to one child) & an attractive 34 part-time waitress at London's Latin Quarter...(she served John Wayne there) and she obviously knew 15 year old Jacqueline. I was 9 years old at the time, but our lives were determined by what happened to poor Jacqueline. Mom began wearing a knife when she travelled to her St Marys nursing job (although she would have been a sure loser in a knife fight), we had a night visit in Knollwood Park, from two London Detectives who wanted to question her about the case, but she was so terrified she refused to open the door to them.  We moved away from London because Mom felt she might have been unknowingly close to the killer.  We moved to Kingston, we were on poor on welfare while she got a teaching qualification at Queens. An opportunity to teach secondary came up in Queensland and we left Canada in 1974. Mom has had trust issues all her life, but I know she regretted not being able to assist bringing a killer to justice.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 12, 2011, 03:22:33 PM
Welcome!
Your poor mom... it must have been stressful enough to have known Jacqueline and then have this over your head all these years. There was another poster on here that worked with Jacqueline at Latin Quarter too who posted earlier.
From her photograph and testimonials from those that did know her, she seems like she was a beautiful person inside and out. The other murders around the time remaining unsolved just  don't make sense and for it all to happen in what was a small city at the time makes you wonder how well they were investigated at the time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on August 12, 2011, 10:42:12 PM
I'm amazed that a fifteen year old girl would have been hired to work at the Latin Quarter.  This was a very elite dining spot owned by Johnny Downs who had an orchestra that performed there.  Even though the place has been torn down now it is still a legend in London, Ontario.  It was very expensive to dine there and the waitresses wore bunny costumes.  The clientele in this place would have been very different from that in a department store caffeteria.  The Latin Quarter was were London's business men gathered after work.  Jeb, would you confirm that Jacqueline worked there and was it at the same time that she worked at the Met in Treasure Island Plaza or before that?  Did your mother know that Jacqueline was working in a restaurant that was more like a night club and served alcohol?  Just wondering.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on August 13, 2011, 10:13:36 AM
HI G.G.

Yes, Jackie did work at the Latin Quarter as a salad and desert girl.  (From about April 69 til October 69.)  She made up the salads and deserts in the kitchen.  (She may also have served the deserts to the tables, but I'm not absolutely sure about this.)  My mother also worked at the Latin Quarter in the same capacity. 
I worked at the Latin Quarter as a dishwasher from about November 69 til May 70.  I took this job after school and on Weekends so that I could buy Jackie a headstone.  (The reason I say that Jackie may have served deserts "to the tables," is because, the elderly couple that I bought the headstone from, remembered her from the Latin Quarter.)  Jackie worked at the Met in September and October 69.
       
Hope this is helpful.

Jeb 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on August 13, 2011, 10:21:53 AM
G.G.

Jackie made desserts not deserts.  Sorry about that.

Jeb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on August 13, 2011, 12:02:46 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Jeb.  I couldn't picture Jackie working there as a waitress.  It's possible that someone who had seen Jackie at the Latin Quarter also saw her at the Met and took a special interest in her.  I'm thinking she may have been stalked for awhile rather than the perp coming upon Jackie by chance on the night that she was taken away.  I still think that there was more than one person involved in her abduction though because a witness claims to have seen Jackie getting into the back seat of a car that night.  This indicates that there was no room in the front seat because there were two or three people already using it.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 13, 2011, 03:34:42 PM
You bring up a good point GG... someone had seen Jacqueline at The Latin Quarter then found out she left and went to work out in Whiteoaks (not Whiteoaks then but that area) Facebook has a fanpage now If You Grew Up In London Ontario You Will Remember When... and a lot of people have mentioned Latin Quarter and that it was fairly upscale and the costumes the waitresses had to wear. Most people have posted there when they got their first jobs too and it seems back then, you could work a lot earlier than when I waited to get my first job in the late 80s (had to be 16 then). I did post a list of names from this site to see if it could jog some memories but so far, most people are friends of Jackie Dunleavy and a woman that Jacquline English baby sat and lived by. You never know though.
In that day... if someone was stalking her and went in a few times without seeing her, I guess it would be commonplace for the owner or manager to say "oh she went to work at the Met store by the 401" unlike now where privacy would dictate they could not do this... or shouldn't.
I am not familiar with the whole hitch hiking thing since I was born in the day you didn't even consider taking an offered ride... but was it common to get in the front seat if it was available or if you were a bit suspicious, would you get in the back instead?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on August 13, 2011, 06:16:55 PM
Hi Chickapey:

I don't mean to be critical, but Jackie didn't work at the LQ on Saturday October 4, 1969.  She worked at the Met from 6pm to 10pm. 

When I first started researching Jackie's case, I gathered all of the newspaper articles together (as rkay has done) and then I pulled them apart, article by article.  I would do one article a day.  In this way I got to know Jackie's case, inside and out.  What I'm seeing on this site (obviously), is some people reading the articles once only, and then making inaccurate assessments and statements.  Some people have even asked questions where the answers can be found in the posted LFP articles.  I appreciate everyone's interest in Jackie's case, but I encourage all, to read the articles thoroughly to avoid unnecessary rumours being started and propagated.

Hi G.G.

There were likely many people at the LQ that knew Jackie was working at the Met on the night of Saturday October 4th, and also that my mother was in the hospital.

I don't believe Jackie was stalked, because on most nights my mother would have been there to pick her up, and she only worked there about a month.  I do agree with your assessment that Jackie was not abducted by a stranger though.  (I honestly believe Jackie knew her abductor(s).)

I also agree with your assessment that there were two or more persons in the vehicle that picked Jackie up.  However, I personally believe that the vehicle was waiting there for her, knowing that she had to cross the bridge to get to the bus stop.  (This would also mean, that they knew my mother wouldn't be picking her up that night as well.)

     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 14, 2011, 04:50:13 PM
Hi Jeb,

Firstly, I don't read where Chickapey thought that Jackie was working at the Latin Quarter on Oct. 4th.

There was a discussion (I think in the Member's Lounge) about members asking repetitive questions on a thread.  Some do it without reading the entire information and links that are provided. This will usually happen when there is a significant volume of reading or if the thread has gone on for many pages. Others will do it because they have forgotten some details, even though they have previously read the entire material. 

Some family members are willing to answer the same questions over and over, and some, like yourself, find this frustrating, which is totally understandable.  But to encourage people to stay interested and to give their input, you could rely on members who have studied Jackie's case in some depth, who could answer some of these questions as they arise.

I hope this suggestion helps Jeb.

HF

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 14, 2011, 10:21:32 PM
Sorry JEB but where did I say she worked at the Latin Quarter that day? I did wonder if someone had remembered her at the LQ when she worked there then when she stopped working there perhaps asked another employee where she had gone. If the employee then said she was at the Met and no longer at the LQ, they would know where to find her.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on August 15, 2011, 06:31:48 AM
Chickapey and HF:

Just to clarify again.  Jackie didn't leave the LQ on Oct 4th because she didn't work there that day.  She also didn't quit the LQ.  She was employed at both the LQ and the Met on October 4th as I stated to G.G. with my dates.  (Either way you look at it, she didn't leave the LQ, period.)

Again, I'm not meaning to be critical, but this is how false information gets propogated.  If you go back and read one of Jesa's remarks, (as an example) she has GJ being found in a creek when in fact she was found on a woodlot.

Also, who could have clarified for G.G. that Jackie worked at the LQ, and whether or not my mother knew she was working there.  What member would have had that knowledge.  (I believe I answered all of G.G.'s questions.  She posted, "Thanks for clarifying Jeb.")

Also you seem to think I mislead you (from your disappearing post.)  All I can say to that is, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

And once again, thank you both for being interested in Jackie's story.  I sincerely appreciate that.  The next best thing to Jackie's case being solved (from my point of view) is that Jackie (and her story) is-are not forgotten.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 23, 2011, 05:30:56 AM
The fire on Elmwood Av.... apparently there was yet another fire in this building after the one posted and documented here and it was after that the building was torn down. Does anyone remember this?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on September 23, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
Chickapey, Did you mean Elgin? I haven't found a reference to a fire on Elmwood
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 23, 2011, 02:26:56 PM
Hi Freeman... it's on page 11 on here. Jacquelin had lived with her family in an apartment on Elmwood Av (old south) until roughly a month before she died. The story documented here shows the fire that damaged the house on Elmwood in 1972. Someone that lived nearby and had known two of the little girls killed in the fire said the building caught on fire again in the mid 70s and was completely destroyed then demolished. For that fire, they said the cause was faulty wiring and too many families living there.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 25, 2011, 07:40:53 PM
Hello to all...
 I am Anne English, Jackie's older sister. I have been following this site & wanted to extend & express my gratitude to all who have shown a genuine interest in Jackie's case. The hours that you have all spent retrieving, dissecting & posting for public viewing has obviously generated a renewed interest. Rkay...your endless dedication & hard work was more than I could ever have hoped for & you energized us all. Rkay, Gibbons, Havefaith, GoNgo & Chickapey.....accolades are due. This heartfelt thank you is not adequately expressable.
Jackie's story is essentially now permanently available, thus always remembered. I apologize for any friction that may or may not have taken place due to differences of opinion, but I am acutely aware of the possibilities of disagreements over a matter as sensitive as this case. We all have our own perspectives & see things from our personal experiences in life & of course this makes us quite unique & original. I was extremely pleased that a diverse group such as ours...took the time & effort to present, question & debate Jackie's story.
I truly wish I was able to share more details with you but because some of the facts are not personal knowledge, but bound in trust, I must remain silent. But....I can share my personal experience & my personal belief with you in a very small attempt of appreciation of your sincere interest in my sister Jackie's murder.
 As you all know from Jebs earlier post, he & my mother befriended the Fryer's & thus said, believed him innocent of any involvement. I personally never befriended the man who was considered a suspect in the demise of my sister & was not influenced by my mother, who was crippled by the loss of her daughter for the remainder of her life. Alternately, I never really formed an opinion of guilt or innocence UNTIL, Aug. 2004. My brother had received an invitation to the Fryer's 50th wedding anniversary & a short note requesting the invitation be extended to me. ME....who had had no relationship of any value with either of the Fryer's.
Well of course, I decided to go, mainly to see if a transcript of the trial could be obtained from Glen Fryer. Fred & I arrived & nearly caused heart failure for the older 2 children (whom by the way were hosting the gathering) & the youngest boy became virtually a Siamese twin to us until the moment we left. Ruth appeared to be quite pleased & even anticipating our arrival. She was wearing her wedding dress & I commented on how amazing it was that it fit so well after 50 years. Her response was "what was truly amazing was the fact that they were still together, celebrating their 50th" Many possible interpretations of her odd comment to me! Glen----( in my opinion) cautiously toyed with me. Apparently, my instantaneous dislike & obvious strong suspicion had been aroused the moment I encountered him & was obvious. I exchanged very little conversation with him & spent my time looking at the collection of pictures posted everywhere & the noticeable distress our presence had caused particularly Glenda Ruth & Rick, all the while with John attached to our hip.
I would not ask Glen Fryer for anything....& I do not believe he knew of the invitation to me. I believe Ruth, slipped that note in extending the invite to myself, with no one elses knowledge. The hosts (kids) were not aware Fred was invited...that was very apparent.
During our short meeting, I had, after years of no opinion, formed a very strong & unshakable conviction immediately. As we were leaving & standing in front of the Fryer's to say our goodbyes, someone brought Glen a piece of cake. I said "it must be nice to be served"...Glen Fryer smiled & looked up at me & his response was "we all get our just desserts". John Fryer of course escorted us out to our vehicle & watched as we drove away. This is an accurate account of my encounter with Glen Fryer.
Glen Fryer was tried & aquitted of the the charges by Judge Colter & he is a free man in this life & this world. After more than 30 years 1969-2004, of knowledge & possibilities & uncertainty....I formed my opinion of what happened to Jackie & my resolution comforts me.
Four decades of agonizing uncertainty.

Forty years of wondering why.

It's hard to fathom the torment endured in that span by the family of Jacqueline English. The 15-year-old London, Ontario, girl was abducted, raped and murdered 40 years ago. Her murderer, perhaps a serial killer who preyed on young girls in the region during that time, has not been caught.

Too many of these grim anniversaries pass unnoticed. It is not surprising. Jacqueline's case is but one among thousands. There are more than 3,400 unsolved murders in Canada, dating back to 1961. Who knows how many more from decades beyond. Many cases are gone from view, dissolved like sugar cubes in warm water. Many of these cases are not being actively investigated. Time has faded memories, washed away evidence and bred inertia. Jacqueline's case does not appear on the cold case web list of the London Police Service.

Jacqueline was last seen leaving the former Treasure Island shopping plaza on Wellington Road in London on Oct. 4 and getting into a car. Five days later, her naked body was found in Big Otter Creek, near Tillsonburg, a small community about 40 kilometres east of London. She had been raped and struck on the head. Jacqueline's case was among 20 examined by a cold-case task force that operated for several years in the late 1990s in southwestern Ontario. Though some cases were cracked, Jacqueline's murder was not solved.

In 2000, Jacqueline's sister, Anne English-Cremers, put pain to paper in this poignant letter to the editor published in a London newspaper:
Many of us have lived with the tragic effect of these events for decades. Time and time again, our hopes have been renewed, only to fade away. We have waited and watched as family members succumbed to chronic or terminal illness. We have quietly acknowledged our loved ones' (the victims) birthdays, which remain uncelebrated, as well as the anniversary of their sudden deaths.

We have spent uncountable hours reliving the facts of each case, uncountable hours with our memories of that macabre time, uncountable hours questioning whether we could have somehow altered the fate of our loved ones. We have entertained ideas of how different our existence may have been had these murders never occurred or even the difference if the person(s) responsible had been found and held accountable for our loss.

Someone, somewhere knows or suspects the person(s) responsible but chooses to protect their family from the stigma that would surely be attached to the revelation of the guilty party. So, we the families of the many loved ones taken will, in all likelihood, live the remainder of our lives with the unimaginable thoughts and questions of who and why, while the family of the killer(s) lives the remainder of their lives with guilt and shame for their lack of courage as the price for total anonymity.

Roughly 90 of the approximately 600 murders committed in Canada each year are not solved. While every murder leaves a life story unwritten, these 90 are wretched for the doubts and uncertainty they sow.

If you know anything about the murder of Jacqueline English, or any other unsolved murder, call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS, or call your local police department.
posted by Rob at 10:28 PM on Oct 31, 2009
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 26, 2011, 06:43:30 PM
Personally speaking, it's the least we can do. As a community it's our job to make sure everyone - especially children - are safe and if the unthinkable happens, it's our duty to make sure they receive justice. It's impossible to know how any of the family who are victims of heinous crime feel. Your letter describes it perfectly.

How you had the strength to attend the anniversary, I will never know but it is truly an example of the strength of your character.

We are all here for Jacquelin. We may not have known her but to me, her spirit is strong and speaks to us all. She deserves the justice and your family deserve the answers.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 26, 2011, 07:15:34 PM
Jesa, you are truly a brave heart.  I hope your message can reach the hearts of those who are protecting the monsters who live amongst us.  The greatest shame of all is their silence.

In the meantime, our work is not finished, and Jackie will not be forgotten.

Have Faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: gibbons on September 27, 2011, 09:41:54 AM
Wish we could do more! 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 27, 2011, 09:29:31 PM
After more than 40 years of studying my sisters case & with the facts I have, I have a theory. One thing we (family) all agree on because we have more facts... is that Jackie was not unknown to her killers.
There is (which I use) the KISS theory & tossed in with some common sense, it worked out this way for me, in my mind. Of course it could be completely wrong.
Point 1---Jackie meets a new friend probably in July 69. MARILYN HIRD
Point 2---Marilyn Hird has a boyfriend a few years older & his name is RICK. She has been in love with him since early public school & Rick & Marilyn attended a remedial reading program together (before or after school)
Point 3----Rick had parents, a dog & "possibly" (her words) a sister.
Point 4---Rick chummed around with a teacher in his 30's. She says from Clarke Road but is unable to identify who.
Point 5--- they were at some "dilapidated rooming house" Marilyn, Rick & teacher
Point 6---Jackie was very secretive about her new friends
Point 7---someone had knowledge of Mrs Harrison's personal info
Point 8----Richard Harrison knew Glen Fryer from school labs? whatever that is
Point 9---Betty Harrison knew Diana Johnson in a professional relationship...a child specialist
Point 10---Sharon Harrison oldest child lived with grandparents from early age, rather than at home with Vernun, Betty & Richard
Point 11---- Diana Johnson worked with Glen Fryer
Point 12---2 beer drinking men picked the girls up from Treasure Island Friday Oct 3
Point 13---Jackie did not want to go to work Sat. Oct.4 & was not herself (according to Fred, my mom & fellow employees)
Point 14---Jackie had bought a new nightie & slippers Friday night (next night Sat to be night of supposed pj party @ Mary-Lou Courtney home) where according to Marilyn Hird, Marilyn was & Rick couldn't have killed Jackie because he showed up & wouldn't have had time... quoting Marilyn.
Now on to my interpretation of events that may have occurred.
Jackie & her new friend Marilyn (a year older) & her boyfriend Rick (3-4 years older) & Ricks teacher friend (in his mid 30's (according to Marilyn)) met at 133 Elmwood Ave, during July. The board of education building was almost within spitting distance of 133. The room was sparsely furnished & was obviously a temporary space for someone? Jackie became very different & secretive during this period.
My family moved in Sept. & apparently Jackie did not enrol in Beal & yet my mother drove her & waited for her & thought she had. Marilyn Hird had switched from Clarke Side Road to Beal that year, but transferred back the following year. Det. Alsop told me a woman residing @ 133, when later questioned by police said she never realized Jackie had moved, as she was there daily & hanging her bathing suit on the line.
Jackie got a job @ the Met in Sept. but for after school hours & shortly after Marilyn Hird was hired at the Met.
I think it is highly probable that Jackie, Marilyn Hird, Rick Harrison & Glen Fryer...were a pact. Rick was in awe of the male teacher who had befriended him, Marilyn was in love with Rick & to Jackie, they were all older & probably "cool" to her.
Something scared Jackie on that Friday night ride...so much so, she was short with Fred the next day & during her hospital visit to my mother attempted to persuade my mother that she didn't want to go back Sat. night. Her boyfriend was with her (Dave Papple) during that visit  & my mother wished she had asked him to leave the room so Jackie could speak freely about what was bothering her...but she didn't.
Jackie did take a cab to work that night & asked a few people at the Met for a ride over to the bus. None were able to accommodated her. She started out once & turned back to ask another person but to no avail, so she headed out on foot. The car stopped on the overpass, the back door opened & she got in. Her last ride.
Since I know the dynamics of our family....I think Jackie was very vulnerable that summer, being without her best friend (who was on vacation) & met this group Marilyn, Rick & Glen at the rented room in her building & was taken with the "wild" girl Marilyn & her cool boyfriend Rick & the older more mature teacher (Glen Fryer is my guess). My mother was strict & according to Marilyn (who told us)... Jackie was going to register right after Thanksgiving & return to school. Maybe she (Jackie) assumed my mother would never know about the missing weeks. Jackie did leave for school every morning...but never got there.
Marilyn was quoted as "wild" by her friends & I have this all documented...names & dates. Marilyn during her interview with Fred & I (documented) told us the Rick & teacher story's & also quoted "it didn't have to be that way" & "Jackie was boy crazy"---a fact Fred & I were not aware of.
I think Rick (if Harrison) had a problem & saw Diana Johnson for help thus explaining their acquaintance with each other & possibly the reason the daughter Sharon resided at the grandparents.
I think Rick Harrison, who we know knew Glen Fryer...had formed a odd student/mentor relationship or serf/God relationship.
I think Rick, Glen & Marilyn picked Jackie up that evening & things turned nasty. Possibly Jackie's niavetivity or wanting to squelsh the older group, who were out of her league... did not go over well. Jackie's clothing were ripped off her, including her pierced earrings, she was badly beaten & then struck with a blow to the back of the head. Her shoes (which I identified were scraped clean, one inside shoe, one outside shoe, so she was dragged. She was raped, her shoes left at the pond, her clothing scattered in ditches along the way to the dumping ground & her earrings dumped over the bridge with her body, but possibly initially intended to be kept as a souvenir for a girl that liked them.
Betty Harrison waited 10 days before going to police...what if her son Richard had told his mother what had happened & she devised this plan, placing the family there..... the night her son & the teacher upset Jackie by their comments about the following nights plans? Then the teacher who is in contact with Richard learns what Betty has done & begins sending the threatening phone calls, macabre birthday cards & messaging. Betty Harrison left work early the day of her stabbing & was on an abandoned road when a man opened the car door. What if she went out there with Richard & the teacher had agreed to meet them to get things straightened out about stories or to teach Mrs Harrison a lesson. The stabbing itself was controlled & mostly superficial....maybe even Richard himself did the stabbing....because Betty reached out to touch his face at some point to comfort him. Her car may have been helped out of the ditch by her son &/or the teacher & she had to drive home before calling police to get Richard home first. How would a stranger know when her birthday was, when she would be on Hubrey Road & that she had been to the police. How did Cindy (the dog get poisoned) & the new dog lay there between beds as a house fire is going on. Why has no one ever spilled the beans, when we know there was more than 1. ---------1 is dead & his family, & the 2nd is certifiable, since then,  the murder of Jackie?
Glen was a known womanizer (not bad looking) & yet had no respect for women in the true sense. Glen likes to be superior to others & Rick a teenage boy 20, who worshiped his mentor would fit... & Marilyn, our wild child would do anything for her Rick, who disappeared from her life in 1972/73 for good. I think Rick Harrison may have had serious problems & according to Marilyn he liked other girls but he was promised to her. A little jealousy was obvious as she said this.
Take & make circles around each other....first smallest circle put in immediate family, Fred, my mom, me, next make a larger circle around the first...add the closest people to Jackie.... Rick, Marilyn, teacher. Next circle larger around middle one, add people from those people...you get the idea.
Jackie knew Marilyn, Marilyn knew Rick, Rick knew Glen, Betty knew Diana, Diana Knew Glen. The dots will keep connecting.
I personally have (& from my own knowledge many of the answers you may want to some of the questions you may have).
Even Topham....said recently "Betty was hiding something". One & one add to 2 for me & I am able to connect ALL the dots. Whoever had that room at 133...was seen by some of the residences of 133, besides Jackie....Whoever stabbed Betty Harrison was known by someone inside that house.
These are just thoughts that I have twisted, turned & tried to eliminate for all these years but no matter what...I find this the most plausible account of what could have happened...knowing many facts & knowing the players & knowing the outcome.
Please note...this is just a theory & I am not accusing anyone of anything but when I remind myself to "keep it simple" this is where it leads. If nothing else.... maybe a pretty good fiction story or play. But I think this scenario is worthy of a close examination by the police force as well as the forum.

--
Anne
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 28, 2011, 08:35:53 AM
Two errors in my last post ...Verdun. not Vernun
Jackie was seen on her way to what would have been the appropriate time for attending school ONCE....
I apologize for stating she appeared to be going each day. I assumed that from the one account that was known & related to me. Really........she may have been laying around reading all day!
I thought I would edit these 2 statements before they possibly become an issue.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 28, 2011, 11:27:24 AM
Thank you so much for this Jesa. I do find it odd that her "friend' Marilyn would say something like Jacquelin was 'boy crazy' after Jacquelin had died.  From the article, there is a photo of Marilyn and David Papple sitting side by side and David sounded like he was besotted by Jacquelin and they were very close so to say she was boy crazy when she was not there to defend herself raises some red flags. I've had to read this several times over and still find it a lot to process.

Also... I may be mistaken or confused but there was to be a sleep over the Saturday night but I thought I read David Papple was expecting her to go on a date with him? Also... the woman saying she saw Jacquelin hanging her bathing suit to dry... was it that warm that fall that she'd be swimming?

Then for Marilyn not to know more about her boyfriend's family after knowing him for so many years... again, she sounds like she's not telling everything she knows. Where are these two now?  I do know there is a David Papple on facebook. I wonder if he knew Marilyn and her boyfriend too? How odd for a teacher to be that involved with kids that age... spending all that time with them and even having what sounds like a crashpad on Elmwood. My dad was a teacher and although this was in the 80s, he would never give a friend of mine a ride home without me being there just in case the friend said he did something when he didn't. So even then, in the late 60s... why would an adult hang around with people almost half his age unless there was something not quite right with him?

Lots to think about. I'm sure we're all turning it over in our heads. Thank you too for offering a reason why the Harrison's daughter was living at the grandparent's house. I wondered that since one article placed her there since she had been school age.

Thank you, Jesa.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 28, 2011, 01:07:34 PM
Hi Chickapey

The "pj"party was where Marilyn Hird apparently was the night of Oct. 4th....Jackie worked that night at the Met & had a date planned with Dave Papple afterwards. The new PJ's & slippers were found in her room, never worn & was noted they had been purchased the night before. Could just be coincidence, if you believe that stuff! I am not certain what to make of that.

The bathing suit being hung on the line.....I am just repeating what Det. Alsop told me a decade ago. We could check the weather for Sept. 69....

Yes Marilyn is fascinating & has vast knowledge & opinions. Called me repeatedly after my letter to the editor in 2000. Fred & I had 3 way phone calls, went to the LPH to visit & listen to her.....SHE had our attention & spent hours sharing her thoughts & memories UNTIL....I said "look, here is what I think happened" & that completely stopped all communication from her. I also sent her a photo copy of Richard Harrison via mail.....to see if this looked like her Rick. When I called her at a later date, she was very subdued & said she "wasn't sure". Marilyn is in & out of the institutions & most people (police) give up on her because she does act crazy....BUT Fred & I have learned much from her rantings & they have proved fruitful.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 28, 2011, 05:06:17 PM
I wonder too... if she dated Rick for this long, it must have been quite traumatic on her to have him dump her.  There are so many variations running through my head about this... do you think this contributed to her fragile mental state? Since she was wild, was she a drug user at that time? Did they attend that dance that was mentioned in the paper? Did she involve herself with your family a lot after?

From anything I've heard of Jacquelin, the description of being "boy crazy" seems wrong. She strikes me as being a devoted girl friend to David Papple and would have rather gone out on her date with him than the pj party. 

What still echos in my head too is what Glen Fryer's wife said after you made the comment about her fitting in her wedding dress.  SO odd.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 28, 2011, 05:57:00 PM
Chickapey

Marilyn is amazing with details of most anything she chooses to speak of, but it is usually her choice of topic. She is intelligent & articulate....then will go off into a fantasy world. But if you take notes & pay attention, she is speaking very factually. She is difficult to follow....but perhaps this is done deliberately.
Fred & I were a wonderful audience for her & she gave us a lot of info....inadvertently. When the info was followed up on, much was accurate, to our initial amazement.
I detect ( but nothing factual) that Marilyn was jealous of Jackie....in fact she went to great lengths to tell me just how pretty & slender she had once been.
Marilyn says her Rick, left the country in  the early 70's & went to Hollywood & became "Harrison Ford".
Richard Harrison died in 73.
No Marilyn was not heard from for 30 years because just after Jackie died, she became fragile. My mother & the police basically left her alone....because she was a complete mess. Strange that it seems although she was probably predispositioned, she was the only one who was endlessly TORMENTED by Jackie's death.
Our family has always agreed that Marilyn knows exactly who killed Jackie, although there may be differences in her actual involvement, amongst us. After the letter to the editor....Marilyn resurfaced & managed to locate me. 2000
Marilyn called 2-3 times a day for months, telling me she knew who killed Jackie. Of course both my brother & I were aware that she did & we spent hours with her, on the phone, in person, driving her around on errands & when I got tired of her games & told her my theory & pushed the fact she failed to remember the love of her life's surname, she shut down. I located her in St. Mary's within the last 18 months but have lost her again. She was not thrilled to hear my voice, so I have no idea other than my theory & the picture of Richard Harrison.............she found distasteful. By the way....Marilyn claims Glen Fryer was framed. Strange that she was even right on with her opinion. I would have expected someone who had been so traumatized & hospitalized for lengthy periods of time right after the murder (1970) to may be have to dig around to recall who Glen Fryer was.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 28, 2011, 06:21:00 PM
I wonder what part of the city she grew up in or if there are any former classmates of hers who might remember Rick as well. I'm not surprised she was jealous of Jacquelin... the picture in the paper makes her seem much older than she was at the time. If she was in St Mary's within the last 18 months, perhaps Parkwood is another option? (just thinking out loud). It sounds like she did know exactly what happened and being pre-dispositioned to instability or not, it would likely push anyone over the edge.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 28, 2011, 07:11:10 PM
Marilyn Hird grew up in the east end. Manitoulin Drive, not any distance to Elgin St. I met her sister June once at another function & have attempted to speak with her again but so far no luck. I may have an idea how to find her though & if she is open to discussion perhaps she could assist me with Marilyn. I will be away tomorrow but please leave any question you may have. I will answer whatever I know in order to resolve this. Any disagreements with my theory are also welcomed. Thanks all
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on September 28, 2011, 09:35:56 PM
Some incredible series of postings, Jesa. Thanks for being so forthcoming and candid with your thoughts.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 29, 2011, 04:05:27 PM
Jesa, I think your theory is plausible and derserves a look by LE.  The key figure here for investigation is Marilyn Hird. She most likely holds the the secret that could solve this case.  It is obvious that she would know "Rick's" surname, and it looks like she is protecting him.

-Teacher friend of Rick:  A 30-something teacher, supposedly from Clarke Road H.S.  A year book from 1968/69 would show staff photos.  LE could check the list for any charges on file, and if there are any former tenants from 133 Elmwood, they could be shown the photos for possible ID of a former tenant from 1969.

-Unknown apartment at 133 Elmwood:  It seems that this where Jackie spent part of her days when not in school.  This is crucial information as to what she was up to, and who she was associating with, shortly before her murder.  I would assume that once LE had this info, they would have requested a list of tenants, and would have interviewed all of them.  There weren't that many in the building. Does LE have this list in Jackie's file?  It is worth reviewing with you and your brother. (btw was there a swimming pool on site?)

-PJ party, Oct. 4th at Mary-Lou Courtney's:  Marilyn's account of her and Rick's whereabouts should be re-verified.  I assume that LE took a statement from Mary-Lou and possibly others at the party, but statements can change over time. In light of new info from M. Hird, this should be checked again, with special attention paid to what time  MH and Rich arrived at the party.

-Richard Harrison: LE should be able to check CPRI records to see if they have a file on him.  It would be informative to know if he had been seen at the centre and the state of his mental condition.  His mother should have a file with Dr. Johnson's records going back to 1960. I would think that LE checked her file while investigating the fire that killed her and her family.  Hopefully the new privacy laws do prevent access to these files.

Rick must have been under the age of six when his older sister went to live with her grandmother.  That seems too young for him to be responsible for anything so serious as her having to leave home.

This next part is where I have some trouble with your theory. If Rick idolized GF, or was even dominated by him, why would he testify in court, implicating GF in Jackie's murder? No witnesses at the Met cafeteria had come forward in the ten days after Jackie's disappearance.  So why would his mother feel the need to implicate GF, especially if she thought Rick was involved? By coming forward, she would put her son in worse circumstances, as now he was placed at the Met with Jackie and he would be implicating a dangerous killer who he was an accomplice to.

There are no reports that Rick was threatened or terrorized after Jackie's murder, or at any time before GF's court case. Meanwhile there were blatant acts of terrorism at this time, inflicted on his mother and Dr. Johnson, as well as threats and antics directed to various members of the CPRI staff.  This leads me to think that Rick H. was not a threat to GF, and had nothing on him.

Marilyn Hird: As I have always said, I feel that she holds the key to solving this case.  Do you think that she could have been the target of deadly, continuous threats from someone to keep her quiet?  This could help explain her rapid mental deterioration and continued problems and her refusal to talk.


I am not sure that Marilyn's "Rick" is Rick Harrison.  I am not sure that the teacher is GF.  But your efforts in finding answers has provided new information that LE did not have in 1969, nor in the Project Angel reinvestigation. I hope that they will look at it.

Have Faith





Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 29, 2011, 06:45:55 PM
Have Faith

There was no swimming pool at 133. I do not believe a public pool would be open in Sept. & am not certain if that statement has any validity....the woman may have been off by a month.
Directory (city) has been checked....for years preceding & following 1969. English was not listed in the correct time frame so again uncertain as to accuracy of those documents.
Year books have been gathered & gone over....but again the only person that would be able to identify the person we are seeking would be Marilyn & her memory is very selective.
Why would Betty be a threat....because she knew something of value? Otherwise no reason other than she could do damage to someone. Otherwise you are not a threat.
Why would you place yourself at the Met on the Friday night....to give your son an alibi &  reason for being there in case anyone was to have noticed him.
Why would you implicate the other person, if your son was involved....because the only way your son could be looked at, would be if the person you accused were to involve him & that would be very unproductive.
How did the person know that Betty had been to the police in the first place....I imagine her family knew, the police knew & perhaps some close friends.
How would the person happen to know when her birthday was in order to send a card?
How would someone know that Betty would leave work early that day, & happen to be waiting on a deserted road at the precise time her car pulled up to the stop sign?
In those days we were very limited to facts that these days are easily accessible.
You have energized me with your consideration of my theory & I value your input.
You make excellent points & suggestions & I will continue to follow up.
Thanks Have Faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on September 29, 2011, 09:20:24 PM
With regards to Reply #209:  (Anne's Theory)  I honestly don't want to touch this post with a 10 foot pole.  I'm surprised it has been allowed to stay on the board.  But since it has...
Had Anne been listening, rather than talking, she would have heard Rick's last name.  It isn't Harrison.  I've told her that.  So scratch Richard off the list.  M could not realistically have been at a party in London and on the bridge in Otterville on that same night.  It wouldn't matter what time she showed up at the party, only that she showed up.  Figure it out.  So scratch M off the list.  GF never taught at Clarke Rd.  However, there were 3 teachers at Clarke Rd. (with the same last name) that matched the last name of a resident at 133 Elmwood Ave., in 1969.  Which still means absolutely nothing.  So scratch GF off the list.  So who's left.

I just want to reiterate once again, that this post, in my opinion, is sad and it should be removed. 

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 29, 2011, 09:33:55 PM
No Jeb you are correct...you were there & know that Marilyn was unable to recall her Rick's name repeatedly....but after I suggested it was Harrison, her immediate response was "oh I thought it was Shwartz".....so she dodged the bullet until put on the spot & did come up with a name rather quickly & suddenly. But "we" found it odd that Marilyn's Rick went on to become "Harrison Ford"!!!!
What is sad is that you have a vast knowledge & refuse to share it with anyone but say you still would like to see the case solved. What is sad is that I apparently should keep the little knowledge I do have to myself. Please feel free to slant what I am willing to share with the forum in any direction you choose or see fitting. Now you want to control what I am allowed to have posted on the forum? WHY?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 29, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
Jeb...was it confirmed that Marilyn was at the pj party, was the date of supposed party confirmed. You just let us know who & what should be scratched off the list & I will just keep offering what I know. That way perhaps we will make some head way after all these decades. Or you could just bring us all up to speed....easier for all who are trying to help.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on September 29, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
Hi Anne:

Just so you know.  I spoke with one of M's friends quite a while back.  And I asked him if M knew anyone named Rick.  His immediate response was the name you have given.  You can also find him in a Clarke Rd. yearbook.  And his last name can be found on the credits for the movie ET.

I don't want to control what you post.  I won't interfere or interject again. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 29, 2011, 10:01:13 PM
Thanks Anne for the background check list. 

I agree Rick H. would be a person who knew the details for what we discussed.  GoNgo and I had the same concerns about him, and he was on the list of suspects.  But he isn't the only person who could have known some of these details regarding Betty Harrison.

Who also knew her birth date?  Her boss?
Who also knew she left work early the day of her attack?  Her boss.
Who else knew she went to LE?  Her boss?
Who drove her to see Dr. Johnson at CPRI after she recovered from the attack?  Her boss.
Who went to visit GF at his office during her session with Dr. Johnson?  Her boss.
Who was a good friend and chiropractor to GF?  Her boss.
Who was willing to go for coffee with her and GF and Dr. Johnson at this same session?  Her boss.
Who also got involved with Betty and discussed the attack with her?  Dr. Dryburgh
Who is Dr. Dryburgh?  GF's good friend and character witness at his trial.
Who provided GF with an alibi the day of the attack?  His secretary and his wife.
Who concocted a plan to have Betty play mind games on GF?  Dr. and Reverend Johnson.

 I think that all of the above people should be included in a circle as well.  Their actions and testimonies are bizarre.  Add to that, the fact that Betty was hiding something.  I find it hard to believe that she didn't already know GF.  She knew his best friends!  Now is that not a  huge coincidence?  Is it possible that she got talked into meeting GF on that isolated road to work something out, and it had nothing to do with Richard?  Now who was the other person with GF, if not Richard?  Her boss?  GF's wife?  His secretary?  Another unknown accomplice?  Yes, these are more complicated scenarios, but this whole case is unfortunately, very complicated, due to the cast of characters, and their very odd behavior.

Have Faith





Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on September 29, 2011, 10:11:13 PM
In answer to your question.  No it was never confirmed (to my knowledge) whether or not M attended a pj party.  And that's my point.  You have the names of the persons M said attended.  Why would you not check with them before you made your accusation.  (IE If M was at the party, then she couldn't have been in Otterville.

No more questions, and I'll make my exit.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 29, 2011, 11:09:54 PM
It seems odd too that it was thought two people were in the car when Mrs.Harrison was attacked (although she wasn't sure) and if Jacquelin got into the back of the car, two people would likely have been there too. So many strange twists and turns and bits of story that it only helps to have as much information as we could have which is what Jesa has done for us. I don't think anyone is here out of morbid curiosity. If that were the case, we all would have stopped posting long ago.

Jesa, you may not have as much information but what you have are breadcrumbs that can lead somewhere. The person or people that did this had a lot of rage in them that night and it was likely not the one and only time they did something like this. What other families were harmed by this person's actions? Maybe we'll never know, hopefully we will. Having said that, I do believe we are not the final judge.

Thank you for sharing so much of what you know and what you feel. Let's keep on keeping on and hopefully get the blanks filled in.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on September 30, 2011, 09:45:41 AM
If  there is some information that might be learned from Clarke Rd High school people there are sites like CLassmates.com where alumni sign on, I checked classmates and clarke rd does have a site on it and many people from the 1969 era including some names I recognize from this board, I never attended that school so I don't feel comfortable contacting people but there is a message board sectionand other ways information might be collected.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 30, 2011, 01:25:20 PM
THIS IS A REALITY CHECK :

Including Jackie, there were eight young women and boys murdered in 1968/69.  Add four more in other years and the London historical cases come to twelve.

Twelve unsolved murders. All of them deleted from Cold Case status.  All of them filed in cardboard boxes and relegated to the basements of the OPP and London Police forces.

LE have given up on them.  Yet they still won't give out any more information to help the public or victims' families investigate.

It has been 43 years!  The killers and witnesses and clues are getting older and dying off as each year, each decade passes.

We are here, because we are hoping that there is still enough time to find some answers.  To make use of our collective brain power.

We are doing it for Susan, Jackie D., Frankie, Helga, Lynda, Scott, Bruce, Patricia, Jackie E., Soraya, Priscilla and Donna.

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on September 30, 2011, 11:15:36 PM
THIS IS A REALITY CHECK :

Including Jackie, there were eight young women and boys murdered in 1968/69.  Add four more in other years and the London historical cases come to twelve.

Twelve unsolved murders. All of them deleted from Cold Case status.  All of them filed in cardboard boxes and relegated to the basements of the OPP and London Police forces.

LE have given up on them.  Yet they still won't give out any more information to help the public or victims' families investigate.

It has been 43 years!  The killers and witnesses and clues are getting older and dying off as each year, each decade passes.

We are here, because we are hoping that there is still enough time to find some answers.  To make use of our collective brain power.

We are doing it for Susan, Jackie D., Frankie, Helga, Lynda, Scott, Bruce, Patricia, Jackie E., Soraya, Priscilla and Donna.

HF

Well said, HF. There are several boxes of files related to Jackie's case stuffed somewhere in an OPP storage facility that guaranteed have not been looked at for about twelve years.

Before Project Angel, they probably hadn't been looked at for a couple of decades. Several detectives who worked on these cases no doubt retired and/or went to their graves without ever solving these. The officers currently in charge of cold cases just don't want to talk to anybody, including family members, about them. Possibly they don't know anything about these cases, and are not interested in familiarizing themselves with them.

Clearly not talking about these cases hasn't worked. Certainly doing absolutely nothing hasn't and won't work either. Nothing attempted so far has solved Jackie's case or the others, or there'd be definitive answers. After four decades of keeping silent, it's time to try something else.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 01, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Just so everyone is aware....I have no vested interest in having "just anyone" held responsible for my sister Jackie's murder, only the person(s) who killed her will do. If we are able to eliminate people....great! Our list of suspects (my opinion) is very short & every time we "scratch" a name off the list, we get closer to knowing. BUT there MUST be evidence & proof, in order to eliminate them....
In response to a pm.....yes I was aware of James HIrd's violent history. June 28/66...LFP article...Jim Hird was arrested & charged with stabbing/knifing a 5 year old boy, Bruce Shipley, with a butcher knife (8" blade) & his (Bruce) friend Johnny was nicked in the shoulder blade.
Hird was convicted & sentenced to 2 years less a day...
A source claimed shortly after this, he was AGAIN arrested for attacking a nurse. By shortly....I believe right after Hird's sentence was served....& who knows besides LE, just how long he served?
I stopped by the OPP station AGAIN today, but had forgotten it was Saturday, so of course, doors were locked. I will keep on it though.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 01, 2011, 01:53:03 PM
Chickapey

Sorry I haven't responded to a question you asked in an earlier post, before now. I wasn't ignoring your question, only overlooked it by accident.
About Marilyn being described as "wild"....I really have no idea of the reason that adjective was applied.
I found her rather timid & mild when I initially encountered her after Jackie's murder, but considering the time frame & the company she was present in, I think what I noted was appropriate at that particular time. She was not very helpful or forth coming.....AGAIN, many possible reasons come to mind.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 01, 2011, 03:57:28 PM
With regards to Reply #232:

First of all, thank you for not divulging the name of my source.  It is appreciated.  (That is very important to me.)  I agree wholeheartedly with you, that suspects should not be eliminated from any list without "evidence and proof," however, there must also be evidence and proof before you publicly accuse them.  (You never know who might be participating on this board.  It baffles me as to why your group would come out from a 3 month PMing session with Reply #209.)  I feel that so much attention has been generated on Jackie's case recently, that now is the time to give the OPP a copy of my case study.  I would appreciate if you could drop them my copy when your there on Monday.  Thanks
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 01, 2011, 04:37:53 PM
Jeb:

That is wonderful news that you are going to submit your case study to the OPP. 

Jesa's theory was not our "group" theory.  There is no group theory.  Each one of us has our own opinions.  The new information and opinions we read from Jesa's posting, has given us more food for thought.  We appreciate her efforts and admire her enthusiasm.

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 01, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Have Faith...thanks for your "reality check"....time is running out quickly. Collectively we can accomplish something & maybe stir LE as well.
Chickapey...great research on teachers from Clarke Rd. I was unable to log on as I was not in attendance at the school, although I have seen the year books.
Jeb...I would be happy to leave a copy with the OPP....of course not just to anyone. I have made several attempts to see or hear from Inspector Detective Maule, head of cold cases but so far no luck. Not even a courtesy call, so not certain if the new detectives are even familiar or interested but I will make every effort imaginable to get them to participate in Jackie's case. Glad you are willing at this point....you have complied an excellent & accurate case file, which may make it easier for them to get up to speed....with a little prodding. I have been shocked by their lack of courtesy....maybe they are just hoping it will (interest) go away. Not this time....I am on board for the remainder of the trip, until the conclusion. I wasn't planning on stopping there Monday, but perhaps I will Tuesday.
This particular case is solvable still. I hope some of the other cases are as well.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 02, 2011, 10:34:16 AM
Hi Chickapey:  Just read your post.  Is there any chance your father was a student at Clarke Rd as opposed to a teacher, in 1969.  Either way, wouldn't he have known M.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 02, 2011, 12:30:16 PM
He was definitely a teacher as his photo is on the same page as these two men. My father taught electricity and at that time having a girl in the class was rare.  Did M switch schools? The article said she was a Beal student in 1969
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 03, 2011, 07:01:55 AM
Chickapey...as you stated in an earlier post ....breadcrumbs if followed will lead somewhere. Great info gathering on your part. Some of this is new info. to me!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 03, 2011, 07:14:42 AM
Does anyone have an idea of how we could find out how long JIM HIRD actually did serve for the stabbing incident in 66. From there, we could perhaps locate info on the alledged nurse episode. From there we could determine where he was during 1969. We have not verified the second incident. Of course LE, would have this knowledge but since they are not yet on board.....is there a way for me (us) to research this?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on October 03, 2011, 10:05:47 AM
Chickapey

Here is a an article on Masters regarding the 1969 attack, it appears hewent to jail; for 2 1/2 years, the Judge definitely recognized him as a dangerous person.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 03, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
I can't see that these two teachers named Brown have any relevance to Jackie's murder.  So Marilyn told Jesa that she and Jackie and Rick hung around with a teacher from Clarke Road High.  Maybe this was to throw Jesa off the scent and it wasn't Clarke Road but another school.  Anyway, these teachers could have adult children who would be very upset to see their father's picture on this site.  Would you like your dad's picture on here?  I think that these photos should be removed.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 04, 2011, 01:36:35 PM
Everyone... today marks 42 years since the world lost a bright light.  I believe children are the best judges of character and after hearing from so many children and reading about children who truly loved Jacquelin, it's obvious she was a truly beautiful person. Someone took it upon themselves to let evil control them. Whatever Jacquelin could have been in life is left to "what ifs" but one thing is for sure... her light still shines and always will because that is something no one can take away. Her beautiful spirit is too strong for that.

You've been waiting for justice for 42 years now, Jackie and your family, friends and people who loved you have waited as long for answers. We'll do our best not to see 43 years the same. xx


I took down the pictures of the teachers with the ok of Jesa. However, if it comes to light this man had ANYTHING to do with this I will have them back up in  a heartbeat. If it were my father, I would put the picture up just as quickly, believe me.

All our love, Jackie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 04, 2011, 03:46:47 PM

October 4, 1969.  I am thinking of Jackie and her family today.  Keep up the good fight.


Have Faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2011, 05:10:14 PM
Thank you all for your kindness & remembrance of Jackie. Yes 42 years ago Jackie's life ended but it is comforting to know that she is not & will not be forgotten. You have all cared so much about a young girl who was so special & so loved by her family & it touches me.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2011, 09:32:09 PM
I did Jackie's last walk tonight at 10 pm...& she would have glimpsed the stop lights where the bus stop was. So close but so far! The 401 would have been busy but even now there was not much traffic heading south & north. Back then it would have been darker than it is now, with all the lights from the plazas & Costco. The weather would have been ok because of the energy expended walking, especially at a good pace.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 05, 2011, 05:21:26 AM
A brave walk then and now. x
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: leonagleant on October 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
All the best to Jesa and the rest of Jacqueline's family. It's not easy to find a positive way to remember someone on the date of their death, particularly such a violent one.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 09, 2011, 10:45:46 PM
Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, about 10:20 pm.

I wanted to take the time and think about Jackie, and get a sense of what it might have been like, 42 years prior for her.


Walking north on Wellington up the 401 overpass (apparently I just missed Jesa by a matter of minutes):

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-1.jpg)


I was really struck by the stillness, the darkness, the lonely feeling in the air with cars roaring by intermittently. No doubt these feelings would have been even more pronounced with the area less built up then.

Looking back south, from the overhanging stoplight:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-5.jpg)


Continuing north. At some moment she would no doubt have been aware of the car approaching behind her.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-3.jpg)


Near the middle of the overpass, the sidewalk narrows and the shoulder runs out. Jackie likely would've had to be picked up by this point. (Though, no doubt the bridge was somewhat different in those days).

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-2.jpg)


Near that final convergence, was a shingle, or chunk of material of some sort, wedged between the sidewalk and curb, which seemed an odd thing. The universe, perhaps, leaving a marker?

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-7.jpg)


Returning to the parking lot, it occurred to me that this bus stop might have saved Jackie's life; if it had existed there, 42 years back.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/Oct42011-4.jpg)


The positive thought to spring from this walk is how important family and friends are, and how valuable the little time we have with them can be.


Hope you rest in peace, Jackie. There are still people thinking about you, 42 years on, who value who you were and what you can still teach them, even without meeting.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on October 10, 2011, 07:23:44 PM
Thank you for that, rkay.  What a nice way to remember Jackie, walking her last steps.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 10, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Beautifully done and said, Rkay.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 16, 2011, 08:45:36 AM
Hi...just rereading all the LFP articles & wanted to point out in rkays post 125 ----Judge Colter rejects allowing testimony from a Hyde Park garage man. His reason being is the info this man wants to provide pertains to Oct. 4th (Jackie's death)....rather than any dates which BH was involved with. This person called at midnight to relay what he thought was important for the prosecution to have & the prosecution thought it was important enough to ask for the case to be reopened in order to present this witness.
In Judge Colter's summary...he states that the Fryer's left their home at 5:30 pm Sat. Oct.4, drove to Mrs. Fryers sisters home in Stratford & returned home to London at 9:30 pm---after stopping at a service center in London & placing a phone call.
I assume the Fryer or Fryers used the service center phone as we did not yet have cell phones.
INTERESTING .....hopefully LE will look at this man's statement again.
JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 16, 2011, 02:55:38 PM
Interesting. I'd think the most likely stop would be the corner of Hyde Park and Highway 22 (Fanshawe Park Rd). There were two stations there on the south side of Fanshawe. One is still there, one closed within the last 10 years or so.  Going to Stratford, I'd imagine they would have gone from their home, up Hyde Park Rd to hwy 7 then to Stratford. Was it possible at the time to pull the numbers off a pay phone at that time?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 16, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
One might also consider, why the need to make a phone call when only a few miles from home at that point.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 16, 2011, 08:27:45 PM
I believe that Mrs. Fryer testified that they returned from Stratford at 9:30 pm and they stayed home.  Under cross examination by the crown, who presented different evidence,  Mrs. Fryer then said, she forgot that she left the home around 9:30 pm to inquire about a house for sale, and phoned the real estate agent from a gas station/garage phone.  (Who goes out at 9:30pm to look at a house..and then has to use a gas station phone to call the agent?)

We are left to presume that it was the operator of this station on Hyde Park Rd. who contacted the crown attorney with important information regarding this testimony, which unfortunately was disallowed by the judge.  If this witness was able to discredit the Fryer's alibi for Oct. 4th, the night Jackie disappeared, I feel it would be reasonable to doubt the validity of Fryer's alibi for Oct. 3rd, which was also provided by his Mrs. Fryer, for the night Mrs. Harrison testified she saw him at Jackie's workplace, and it should put in doubt his alibi (again provided by his wife) for the Dec. attack on Mrs. Harrison. 

I agree with you Jesa, this matter should be revisited by LE.  It may provide enough reason to demand that GF provide a DNA sample.  If he is innocent, why hasn't he already done so? 


Edit:
This phone call made by Mrs. Fryer from a garage, is apparently in addition to an earlier phone call made from a garage, when they were close to home (regarding their daughter).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 17, 2011, 07:21:52 AM
Hi Have Faith:  I think you need to read the relevant LFP articles again with respect to "the phone call," then maybe re-post.  (Only one phone call was made from the garage.)  As far as demanding a DNA sample, you've got to be kidding.  From what source document are you getting your information regarding whether or not a DNA sample has or hasn't been provided.  (When you assume, you make an .....)

The trial took place in December 1970, approximately 14 months after October 4, 1969.  If the F's were out to deceive anyone as to GF's whereabouts on Oct 4, 1969, the easiest way to have done it would have been to say, gee, that was 14 months ago.  I don't have a clue where I was.  (Done deal.)  To make up a story that could easily be picked apart by LE would just be dumb.  (IE.  LE need only talk to the sister in Stratford.  Or maybe the sister's neighbours, etc.)

Also, (in my opinion) people generally make the assumption that other people are being truthful.  When in fact, this isn't always true.  In the case of BM, as an example, (the other incredible witness) this wasn't the case.  Judge Colter found a very important inconsistency in her testimony.  Is it possible there could have been an inconsistency in the garage operator's testimony.  (Especially since the incident occurred 14 months earlier.)

More food for thought.         
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 17, 2011, 11:39:50 AM
Hi Jeb,


Re the phone calls:

Reply #125  After Mrs. Fryer left her home on Oct. 4th around 9:30 to look at a house for sale.."She called the real estate agent about the house from a gas station".

Reply #130 (Judge's Summation)  The Fryers "had supper in Stratford...started home between 8 and 8:30, arriving about 9:30, after stopping at a service station in London for gas and to call the friend's home again". (daughter's friend)

I take this to mean that there were two separate phone calls made from a gas station(s) on Oct. 4th.  I have no way of knowing what the garage witness was referring to.  The judge stated "I have some reservations about the credibility of some of the timing for the alibi for the evening of Oct. 4".

Re DNA:  You are correct, Fryer did provide a sputum sample back in 1970, which only proved his blood type.  It is my understanding that there is viable DNA evidence from Jackie's crime.  Can you confirm that LE has retained and processed his sputum sample against the DNA using the subsequent, advanced technology, and that they have cleared GF?  If not, he remains a suspect as far as I am concerned.

Re The time lapse and alibi testimony:  Fryer was arrested on April 26, 1970 and provided his alibi then, which is only 6 months after Oct. 4.  not 14 months later. Since neither the Crown nor Fryer's defense lawyer asked the sister in Stratford to appear in court, I will assume that her testimony would not prove either way, if he had the time to pick up Jackie.  As far as the memory of the garage witness 14 months later, we have no details to help judge it, but he was deemed reliable/credible by the crown and apparently also by the judge.

As to the credibility of the witness BM, I agree with you.  I had doubts about her testimony.  As to Mrs. Harrison's evidence..Judge Colter, in his summation stated " I accept her as a credible witness".  As to the credibility of Mr. and Mrs. Fryer's alibi evidence, the judge stated "Suspicious of it I am".

At the end of  his closing summation Judge Colter said "Many aspects of the evidence I have heard are far from closed". (meaning Jackie's murder).  He urged people to come forward with any evidence, no matter how farfetched.  Little did he know then, that LE would fail to solve it. 




Modify:  Judge's Summation is found in Reply # 130, not 140
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 17, 2011, 02:13:27 PM
HF...I also,seem to interpert that there were 2 separate phone calls...placed from garages. If both were from the Hyde Park location, then it would appear that whoever placed the calls from there.....couldn't wait a couple more minutes to use the home phone!!!!!
Please HF ...keep up the good work, you definitely know your material.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 17, 2011, 02:18:29 PM
JEB  as you stated ...we assume everyone is being truthful & possibly this is not the case. Why do you assume that the Fryer's are so truthful? Glen Fryer is a proven liar...if nothing else, BUT!!!!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 17, 2011, 03:16:20 PM
I believe I read somewhere....in some material that "whatever" the testimony the Hyde Park garage operator called the Crown with regard to at midnight.....had to do with the earlier time frame of 5:30-6:30 ish Sat. Oct 4th. I could be mistaken....in which case please correct. I will re-read my material to see if I can find this!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 17, 2011, 04:59:46 PM
Hi again Have Faith:

I'll reply to your entire post in 2 posts, if you don't mind.

You posted:  "This phone call made by Mrs F from a garage is apparently in addition to an earlier phone call made from a garage."

Here is all I have referring to phone calls:
LFP Dec 16:  "Under cross-examination... in Hyde Park.  She had called the real estate agent about the house from a gas station, she said."
LFP Dec 18:  "She said she had... in Hyde Park.  She had called the real estate agent about the house from a gas station."
LFP Dec 19:  "They had supper in Stratford, phoned London to check X's whereabouts and started home... after stopping at a service station in London for gas and to call the friend's home again."

With regards to LFP Dec 19:  This is the judge's summation.  He obviously erred in his recital, which I'm sure he probably did more than once.  It would be expected.  He cannot say that they stopped to call the friend's home again when neither the Crown nor the Defense brought this up in their earlier arguments.  He obviously repeated what he had just stated about the phone call from the sister's in Stratford.

LFP Dec 19:  "The Crown attorney... in reply.  The evidence covered a period between 5:45 and 6:30," the Crown attorney said."  Nothing in here about a phone call.  Nothing anywhere stating that the garage operator wanted to testify about a phone call.

   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 17, 2011, 06:12:13 PM
This is confusing....there were 2 seperate calls placed from garages....Mrs. Fryer states she called the real estate agent from a gas station....after 9:30 pm. Oct 4/69
After returning from Stratford...they stopped for gas at a service center & also placed a call from there...about Glenda- Ruth
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 17, 2011, 06:20:31 PM
Your interpretation is wrong (in my opinion.)  They stopped on their way home and gassed up.  Since it was getting late (close to 10pm) R called the Real Estate agent from the gas station to see if she could view the house that evening.  (This would be typical R.)  When she got the OK to meet the agent she dropped the family at home and off she went.  Otherwise, why not just call from home.  (IE.  Had it been an hour earlier, she probably would have just called from home.)  Again, (my interpretation only) the judge cannot say that she stopped at the gas station and called the friend's home when that evidence was not presented to him during the trial.  (IE.  He cannot say what the F's had for supper in Stratford if that evidence wasn't presented during the trial.)  ERGO Must have been an error in his 3 hour (I believe) summation.  Since he had just finished mentioning that the F's had called the friend's home from Stratford...   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 17, 2011, 06:30:15 PM
Hi again Jeb,

Because some of the LFP articles are not dated, I have referred to the Reply numbers to find the articles.  I corrected my earlier post..the Judge`s Summation is found in Reply 130, not 140.

The time line: Friday- Judge allows petition from crown to reopen the prosecution`s case.
                   Monday-New witness, Mrs. Magee testifies she saw GF at the Met on Oct. 4
                   Tuesday-GF denies her claim and presents his alibi.
                   Wednesday at midnight- garage operator calls crown attorney.
                    Wednesday-Crown asks judge to allow testimony from garage operator, which is denied.

You are correct that the Crown said the (unheard) evidence covered the period between 5:45 and 6:30. But there was mention of the midnight call and that the Crown wanted to call the garage operator.  See Reply 126.

You think that the judge obviously erred in the recital of his Summation, when he said that the Fryers had made a call from the gas station on their return trip from Stratford.  How can you be sure, unless you have the full court documents of all the testimony.  Just because it wasn`t included in a newspaper report, doesn`t mean that the Fryers didn`t make a call, does it.  I wouldn`t expect the judge to make an error on the facts.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 17, 2011, 08:17:51 PM
Hi again, again Have Faith: 

I read reply 140 and realized that you had quoted the wrong reply.  I did the same thing on one of my posts.  (I think in your most recent post you have Wednesday down twice and the second Wednesday should probably read Thursday.  But no big deal, I understand what you're saying.)  And I agree wholeheartedly that the newspaper coverage of the trial cannot replace a transcript.  However, I like you, only have the newspaper articles.  So, when I come to a (vague) situation like this, all I can do, like you, is to find as much info as possible and try to come to what I believe is the most logical scenario.  And that is what I've done.  But anyway, here again is what I think.  Either the time of 5:45 to 6:30 was misquoted in the newspaper and should read 8:45 to 9:30, or the F's stopped at the gas station between 5:45 and 6:30, but didn't use the telephone.  I also believe they stopped at the gas station on their way home and gassed up and that R called the real estate agent, not X as the judge stated.  I believe this was a verbal typo, so to speak, on his part.  And of very little importance.  To assume the judge made no errors in his recital in a 3 hour summation, in my opinion, is asking a lot.  He is just a man.  And you are absolutely correct that "just because it wasn't included in a newspaper report doesn't mean that the F's didn't make a call."  But on the other hand "just because it wasn't included in a newspaper report doesn't mean that the F's did make a call."  Since no call was mentioned, I have chosen to go with the "no call."     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 18, 2011, 05:22:41 AM
If the judge can  make a mistake, can't the paper also make mistakes?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 18, 2011, 09:12:54 PM

Because some of the LFP articles are not dated, I have referred to the Reply numbers to find the articles. 

Just wanted to point out that each article is in fact dated within the file name underneath each thumbnail image, by calendar date, if not day of the week (which can usually be ascertained by each article). However, using the reply numbers is probably a faster way to refer to the articles anyway, as this thread continues to grow.

Now to re-read the info myself about this particular point...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 18, 2011, 10:13:31 PM
rkay..too funny, I missed that you had typed in all the dates..I just went right to the articles without reading your script.  I find it is faster to refer to the reply#, but now I can also name the date of the LFP article.

Thanks mate,
HF

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 20, 2011, 06:08:53 PM
Hi Have Faith:

I just want to start out by saying, I don't feel comfortable talking about the X's life, on line.  However, I feel I must in order to keep Jackie's site, accurate and honest.

In your Reply #253
You stated:  "It may provide enough reason to demand that X provide a DNA sample.  If he is innocent why hasn't he already done so."
My reply to you was, and is, how do you know he hasn't.  What or who is your source for making that statement.

In your Reply #255
You stated:  "It is my understanding that there is viable DNA evidence from Jackie's crime."
My reply to you now is, how do you know this.  What or who is your source for making that statement.

By all means, change 14 months to 6 months.  My argument remains the same.

You stated:  "As far as the memory of the garage witness... he was deemed reliable-credible by the crown and apparently also by the judge."
He could not have been deemed credible by the judge, because he didn't give his testimony.
BM was also deemed reliable by the Crown.  However, her testimony turned out to be incredible.
So, it would appear that the Crown's method for judging the reliability of their witnesses, wasn't that reliable.

You stated:  "As to Mrs. H's evidence... Judge C, in his summation stated "I accept her as a credible witness.""
The actual quote was, "So far as Mrs. H's evidence is concerned, I accept her as a credible witness, but I must examine its reliability as well as its honesty."

You stated:  "As to the credibility of Mr. & Mrs. X's alibi evidence, the judge stated "Suspicious of it I am.""
He then went on to state something about Reasonable Doubt and he Acquitted X.

You stated:  "At the end of the closing Summation Judge C said "Many aspects of the evidence I have heard are far from closed" (meaning Jackie's murder).  He urged people to come forward with any evidence, no matter how farfetched..."
And...................................................................................................nothing as of 42 years later.  Is it possible that LE may have been barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 20, 2011, 06:36:03 PM
I was wondering... after the acquittal, were the police in some kind of contact as to what other avenues they were exploring? When was the point they threw their hands up and shelved it on the cold case file? Much like when OJ Simpson was on trial for Nicole and Ron Goldman... when he was acquitted, one believes the police go another route... start all over. GF was not on trial for Jacquelin's murder but for MrsH... the allegations were brought up during the trial but not much else. To your knowledge was ANYONE ever a suspect ?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 20, 2011, 06:57:51 PM
The garage operators testimony WAS deemed credible...but it pertained to Jackies death date, not BH's attack or witnessing account of Oct.3. In Fact the Oct'4th alibi was the alibi Judge Colter admits to having a problem with. QUOTE " While I have some reservations (DOUBT/MISGIVINGS)about the credibility of some of the timing for the alibi for the evening of Oct.4 th"--He didn't believe it, but took the other two (alibis) at face value as accounted for by the Fryers for the Fryers.
Not speaking for HF...but I believe "sources" remain anonymous unless requested by police & then discretionary as to whether or not at that time. We certainly do not want to involve innocent peoples names on an open forum. As you Jeb stated...thanks for keeping my source unidentified & now you are asking for sources names publically. It seems rules keep changing & only certain times are we allowed to say without actually knowing...that we use common sense to rewrite whatever we don't think fits. Perhaps this is only my interpretation of the last few posts with regard to number of phone calls & importance of rejected testimony....rejected I thought because it did not pertain to the charges GF was facing at that time. Please feel free to comment.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 20, 2011, 07:09:07 PM
There are moments when I get the distinct impression that you have it all figured out Jeb & you certainly have spent a lifetime gathering info....& compiling it in your case study. You have said in earlier posts "scratch MH, scratch GF, scratch RH......so perhaps you are just sitting there watching & taking every opportunity to dispute any "thoughts" or "opinions" we have. I do not know what purpose this attitude serves....I thought or assumed WE were all attempting to resolve OUR sister Jackie's murder. But perhaps you have already done that & have just chosen to remain silent. I am very confused & a little disappointed....every post is virtually an issue rather than a debate.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 20, 2011, 08:33:29 PM
Just thinking aloud...there are some things we absolutely know. Jackie was murdered, Betty Harrison went forward as a witness to the fact of seeing Jackie upset by 2 men the night before, BH started being harrassed with phone calls telling her to back off, BH. left work early & was assaulted on an isolated road the same day as recieving a warning via mail, BH (although a bizarre chain of events) accused GF, her (BH)'s liability card was recovered by search warrant from Fryers home, GF was arrested for wounding BH, BH had threatening mail intercepted by police after Fryers arrest July 2/70 ????, GF was aquitted (barely) by the letter of the law, BH & her family were continually harrassed & did all end up dead in a (unrelated) fire. THESE things happened....LFP may have been inaccurate, Judge Colter may have erred & the crown may have had some useless witnesses....BUT am I to believe that the defense presented a convincing case & the Fryers were nothing but truthful in their testimony....hmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 20, 2011, 10:17:45 PM
Hi Chickapey:
Sorry I took so long to get back to you.  With regards to your Reply #264:  Yes, the newspapers can make mistakes.  As an example LFP Friday, October 10, 1969.
" A neighbor Mrs. D. Kent..."  The neighbor's name was (not Kent.)  We lived at 129 Kent St. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on October 20, 2011, 10:52:23 PM
I try to stay reading this thread,because I care, I don't have anything to add, because you all seem to have a lot of information down pat.
 
I do have a question though Jesa.   How can they be so sure the fire that killed BH and her family is NOT related?   Can you elaborate a bit for me?  I just don't understand the fire not being related, after all BH went through after Jacqueline was murdered.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 21, 2011, 07:44:19 AM
Hello Jobo...Sorry for the confusion: My comment about an "unrelated" fire, killing the entire Harrison family was my weak attempt at sarcasm!  FRIDAY MARCH 30/1973---fire was ruled accidental by a coroner's 5 man jury. A sister-in-law of Mr. Harrison stated that "it was almost inconceivable that the fire was a result of natural causes."
This case is fraught with "coincidences"....
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 21, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
That fire still bothers me. I wonder what steps they took to investigate fires back in that day? It seems odd too that in addition to this fire, the house on Elmwood caught fire not once but twice. A person in the neighbourhood said there was the fire that killed the mother and her children THEN another that resulted in the leveling of the house. The original dog that helped MrsH also was poisoned. Very odd.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 21, 2011, 06:43:44 PM
Hi Jesa,

Re your theory involving RH, MH and GF, you had noted that MH and her boyfriend "Rick" had both attended  a remedial reading program outside of school hours. (Reply # 209)  You think that "Rick" is Richard Harrison.

I had missed the significance of this. In the Crown's Final Arguments (reply #128) the crown atttorney notes that Richard Harrison identified GH (from photos) and that.. "April 26 he identified Fryer and remarked that he had something to do with remedial reading downtown."  That seems to link all three as knowing each other doesn't it.

RH had also stated that he recognized GF from seeing him collect science reading labs from the class rooms, once at Chesley Ave. PS ten years earlier and one another time at Trafalgar PS about six years earlier.  That's quite the memory he has.

Did MH attend Chesley or Trafalgar PS?  Or do you think they met at remedial reading classes?

By coincidence, the Principal of Trafalgar PS testified as a witness for GF at the re-opened trial.  The two had been friends for 15 years. 

Food for thought.

HF



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 21, 2011, 08:26:31 PM
Hi HF....According to a note taking visit with Marilyn, much of which was about her Rick....She believes they her & Rick shared a birthday of May 23, although Rick was 3-4 years older than her. She was born in 53. He lived at home with his parents & had a dog & he wanted to appear normal to the rest of society. Rick & Marilyn shared learning disabilities & at a very early age (6 years old, for Marilyn) they wanted to marry someday. This was stated as "everyday I would sit & write my name as his...Marilyn ????, as young girls do. Strange the name she repeatedly wrote she couldn't remember until I suggested it was Harrison, at which time she very flatly replied "oh I thought it was Scwartz"....end of that conversation. Often Marilyn makes mention of Rick & Rick's teacher, some interesting tales here! MARILYN also stated that on Friday Oct.3/69, Rick & a friend offered to give Jackie & Marilyn a ride home from the Met. & did. THESE 2 must be the 2 beer drinking men, she mentioned years earlier as providing the ride that night. She spoke further about a double date that she (Marilyn) had attempted to arrange between herself, Rick, Jackie & Ricks friend. When asked by Fred I believe if the friend was the teacher her response was " never would she have taken Jackie to meet a 35 year old teacher when she was only 15". When asked if her Rick had any family...she said "he must have a sister". Lots more about the "PJ" party & during this topic Fred asked why Marilyn thought Jackie's killer(s) had used back roads & her reply was "Rick had nothing to do with Jackie's murder. He wouldn't have had time. He came over the night of the 'pj" party."  Marilyn told us she had gotten employment at the Met through Jackie....but doesn't recall where Jackie & her initially met. Did they (Marilyn & Rick) attend the same public school, I am not certain! They were within less than a mile but opposite sides of Highbury Ave. Rick came to Marilyn's home after school to practice his reading...part of their remedial reading program....so if true Rick would have met Marilyn's brother Jim & Rick & Jim would be about the same age. Marilyn said....if there is no paper trace of Rick after 72. he must be dead or out of the country." As we left she promised "tidbits" for another day. Her brother Jim left the country as a" broken man"....as told to us by Marilyn. I think for Scotland.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 21, 2011, 09:05:19 PM
The principal of Trafalgar Public School...Gordon Jorgenson testified that he had been in the Met store Oct. 4/69, between 8:30-9:30pm & had not seen Fryer. He had known Fryer for 15 years at that point in time. NOTE...we need not place "anyone" in the store the night of the 4th....the people from the night of the 3 rd, heard saying "did you tell her?, are we going? we'll make it tomorrow night." did not necessarily have to come back in to the store the next night. Just wait outside in their vehicle until Jackie finished her shift.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 22, 2011, 06:14:40 AM
I spoke to someone regarding Jacqulin yesterday through email. She said Jackie had been her babysitter and that mother worked with her at the Metropolitan that night. She said the same as in the paper... that someone came in, spoke to Jackie and she was very upset after. Thinking back to when I was working as a teenager, my friends came in all the time to say they were there but waiting outside as not to get me in trouble with the boss. That was my immediate thought when this person said this... that the people were waiting outside... one was sent in to tell her they were there and left to go wait outside again. Such a brief exchange wouldn't be witnessed by everyone, necessarily.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 22, 2011, 06:58:06 PM
Thanks Jesa for the info.  I agree with you and Chic that it wasn't necessary for anyone to actually go into the Met.

LE should have enough samples to run GF's DNA for a match.  Hopefully they retained his spit sample, the cigarette butt from Mrs. H.'s car, her bloodied clothes and the floor mat with apparent blood stains from the trunk of his car.

I hope they also have kept DNA from J. Hird from his original stabbing conviction of the young boys.

Due to the open ended nature of GF's trial, I would hope that LE had the foresight to retain a copy of the court transcripts.

I also hope that LE tested David Bodemer's DNA for a possible match, due to the similarities in Georgina and Jackie's cases.

The LFPress reported that LE had spoken to over 200 people who knew or knew of Jackie.  J. Hird could have slipped under their radar.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 22, 2011, 07:44:09 PM
I have a question about DNA samples... they took a saliva sample from GF but at that time all they could have determined from that is blood type if I'm not mistaken.  Would they have even had the forethought to take a sample with the hope that one day 'some other test' would be available at some future date? I guess I'm wondering if anyone else had to provide a sample and would it still be viable?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 22, 2011, 08:37:18 PM
Chickapey:  It is my understanding that they kept DNA for future testing.  LE ran the saved DNA evidence with new technology around the time  of Project Angel. 

Jeb:  I am not slanting the Judge's words.  I am not making excuses, such as ..the judge must have made a mistake, or..the newspaper must have reported it wrong. I'm not making up scenarios of what probably happened regarding the F's phone calls. I am not putting false words in the judge's mouth.

The only thing you have said that makes sense to me, is that LE might have been barking up the wrong tree.  This could be true.  It could also be true that they couldn't get the hard evidence.  They  have scores of unsolved murders and we don't know why no one was arrested.  Maybe they couldn't find the hard evidence to take the suspect to trial. 

There are several people of interest in this case.  Until I hear that LE has cleared a person using modern DNA testing, I will always think of them as POI.  You have a women who said she knows who killed Jackie.  She deserves to be looked into again by LE. 

I know you are friends with the Fryers and I expect you to help keep this thread honest and accurate. If any mistakes are made they will be addressed.  Your mistakes as well.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Whistle on October 23, 2011, 03:18:28 PM
 I am pleased to see that Jaqueline lives on the hearts and minds of her family and friends. I was impressed by the walk of rememberence that was taken, photographed and shared with the folks on this board. Well done.
 I am trying to remember my London geography. The Wellington street bridge is further west than the Highbury street bridge. Is Wellington st where the Flying J truck stop is now? And is that where the Treasure Island plaza was located?

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 24, 2011, 09:15:17 AM
Hi Whistle... Wellington overpass is by the former Treasure Island and Ice House. There is still a mall of sorts there but not sure what's there anymore. Flying J is the Highbury overpass and east of Wellington.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Whistle on October 24, 2011, 02:05:03 PM
  Thanks chickapey.
 That helps with the perspective. The mall that is there now is kind of an odds and sodds place. I believe that Wellington street runs all of the way to or very close to Aylmer? I think that there is a Timmies on the south east side that I will sometimes stop at on the way back home.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 24, 2011, 02:40:11 PM
You're right... Wellington runs to St Thomas and then a road to Aylmer. The Timmies has - believe it or not - closed (weird for a Timmies). At the time Treasure Island was there, I think there was another mall across the street and a bit farther south. I BELIEVE Towers was there... there is a Value Village there and a Gym. I've heard too that at the time, there was the 401 Drive in Theatre on the other side of Wellington but I'm not 100% sure. At that time, I guess the overpass was pretty small... maybe two lanes and like some of the others that still cross the 401 with secondary highways on them.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Whistle on October 24, 2011, 03:02:16 PM
Timmies was in an odd spot. You had to drive all the way around the back of the closed restaurant to get into their drive thru.
 I wonder what the treasure Island mall was like? The name makes me think of the Woodbine mall in T.O.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 24, 2011, 08:18:54 PM
The London Gardens (later the Ice House) was at the left side (looking at it) and I believe the Metropolitan Store was along the right side. I was born in 1971 so my memory of the mall is very faint.  I don't remember it being an enclosed mall like Woodbine... more of it just being the Met and that was about it. Were there other stores there?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 24, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
There weren't too many enclosed malls back then other than Wellington Square downtown.  They were mostly stand alone stores with one front entry.  The Met and Towers were on the outskirts of the city and many Londoners didn't shop there very often because it was a long drive from where most people lived and no bus service.  Many people, including me, shopped downtown in those days.  The Met drew a large number of customers from the surrounding countryside and from St. Thomas and other small towns.  If you had seen Treasure Island in 1969 you would say it was out in the country.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 24, 2011, 09:25:05 PM
Thank you Galaxy Girl... I find it hard to picture that area without even a slight amount of build up around it. Was the 401 drive in where the Costco is now? I guess either way, it would have been closed in October anyway. I'd assume too there would be no hockey game that night either?  Was it just the Metropolitan Store and Ice House on that side? What about that weird mall a bit further down... where value Village is now? Wasn't that towers?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Whistle on October 25, 2011, 06:30:40 AM
 I was trying to find some older pictures of the area but, without any luck so far. I did read that there was a towers near by. According to Google Maps it would've been near where a Tony Romas is now. North of the 401.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

 "London (store #) 32 (at) 1441 Wellington Road
London, Ontario Treasure Island Plaza Towers (1961)" Borrowed from the attached website http://www.towersdepartmentstores.info/pages/stores.htm
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 25, 2011, 09:17:02 AM
Hi ...Towers was almost directly across the street from the Met. On the west side of Wellington Rd. & south of the 401 drive in. Showing my age. I think Treasure Island had a grocery store, besides the Met. It may have been the "Busy Bee".
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Whistle on October 25, 2011, 02:59:55 PM
Hello Jesa
Thank you for sharing. We used to visit my aunt and uncle in Oakridge in the late sixties and early seventies. I don't remember the the city that well from those days. I was only 9 when your sister passed.
 More recently we go antiquing in the London and southwest area. We seem to use the Wellington and Highbury tramples a lot so I become a wee bit familiar with them. I've always had a fondness for that area of Ontario.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 17, 2011, 11:33:19 PM
Just so my understanding is clear-- if anyone can answer-- was Jackie's body found at the bridge over Big Otter Creek on what is now Windam 10 Road, very near Delhi?

(If so, that's a good hour drive at least from London. Quite a hike, and I have to wonder why the driver would go so far, when obviously there were plenty of other locations not as far afield that might've been even better to hide someone-- which I suppose is also assuming that 'hiding' was the intent. As well, it makes one wonder if there was any particular significance to that specific spot.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 18, 2011, 11:45:31 PM
Well, after a trip there myself, what was '10th Concession of South Norwich Township' does NOT seem to be Windham 10 Rd, certainly not in comaprison to the photos provided in the LFP articles at the time. I tried several other possibilities closer to Otterville, but since all the concessions have clearly been re-named, I'm not sure what #10 became, and once the sun went down, it became impossible to continue.

Anyone know? If not, I'll have to do some digging. (Of course, it could be that further clarification on the location has been given somewhere in the LFP material, and I've just forgotten or missed it.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 19, 2011, 07:14:46 AM
Sorry not to reply Rkay but I don't know either. I've done a little research like yourself and can't quite figure out where the bridge is.  I'm sure if we all work on it, we can get it figured out
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 19, 2011, 04:59:41 PM
After a trip to the London Room today, and consulting an old atlas of Oxford County, a topographical map, and a current road map, I think I've figured out what the 10th Concession is now, and narrowed down to two different bridges.

I've included an image below-- #1 is the bridge where Cornell Road meets Furnace Road. I did in fact see this one in person (albeit in the dark) and it did seem to be similar to the one in the photo from the October 10th 1969 front page article (also added below), but not close enough on first impression. The one I'd like to check out now is #2, near where Middletown Line meets New Road, which I think now is the elusive 10th concession. There's some odd curvature to the road heading south there that seems to mirror the image in the photo better, though the bridge itself would not be on New Road. Either way, I will head back and check out both again in the daylight which should confirm one way or another.

If either jeb or Jesa pop on before I go, feel free to set me straight if I'm mistaken!





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 19, 2011, 05:16:23 PM
Hi RKay:  See Jeb #41.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 19, 2011, 06:05:26 PM
Hi RKay.  Sorry, I gave you the wrong post.  See Jeb #42.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 19, 2011, 06:14:03 PM
Hi rkay:  Sorry again.  Everytime I post, my reference post increases and changes by one.  So, see Jeb November 12, 2010.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 19, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
That's okay, I found it just fine. Thanks very much for the info!

So it is in fact the Cornell Road bridge. Part of what was making me doubt it in person was the intersection of Furnace Road, as that's not immediately apparent in the LFP image (from the POV of the photographer, that would be just past the bridge, veering off towards the right). And of course, in retrospect,  "Concession 10" refers to the land lot rather that the "concession road" itself, so that bridge is located within that lot.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 19, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
Great work, Rkay. It's hard to get an idea with the roads being renamed.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 20, 2011, 08:26:39 PM
Going back to GF... there was a link posted in another group of his teaching records.

http://www.oct.ca/PublicRegister/memberDetails.aspx?memberID=339150
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on November 21, 2011, 05:45:44 AM
Just returned from a short absence & see rkay you have found Jackie's dumping site. A little off the beaten path so obviously the person(s) were familiar with it. Great job rkay.
Chick....wow! Interesting to note on Fryers site that he chose to retire on a Thursday April 17th. Coincidentally Jackie's birthday.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 21, 2011, 08:57:40 AM
I was curious as to which schools GF taught at. There was some talk on the London group that he had been a teacher at Princess Alexandra Public School before he went to CPRI. Also... after the trial and being acquitted, was he hired back at CPRI? If not, would he have had some kind of case for wrongful dismissal? I wonder where he taught then. It also shows him getting his BA from Waterloo in 1974.  Does that mean the family moved there? A  BA takes a few years if you're going to school full time so if he did do that... who was the income provider in that time? I thought both girls graduated from Oakridge or the Mount. Does anyone know?

I also read on the Byron group that he used to scare the kids quite a bit. Parents telling the kids to stay away from him. If this was happening, wouldn't it be normal for a family to want to move out of the city?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Buster on November 21, 2011, 03:22:03 PM
Chick....in my research I read somewhere that he "resigned" from CPRI after he was acquitted from the trial....one would think that he would have a hard time getting another teaching job in London after that? Perhaps he moved to Waterloo, did something else for a few years, then returned to school for his BA?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 21, 2011, 03:39:37 PM
That's what I would think but on classmates.com, it shows the graduation dates of both girls from Oakridge a few years later. Kinda confusing... maybe someone will know
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on November 21, 2011, 07:00:52 PM
As of July 30 1971....Glen Fryer considered himself to be in the position of being unemployable & "was forced to draw city welfare". His pension fund was signed over to the Law Society of Upper Canada to ensure adequate legal representation.
Sometime during 1972, Glen himself relocated to Toronto in a teaching position. The family remained here in London at that point in time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 22, 2011, 09:32:42 PM
Thank you Jesa... interesting... he was unemployable yet had the money to keep two houses. I wonder why the family stayed in London if he was off teaching in Toronto. Classmates has the youngest graduating from Oakridge in 1977. That's a long time to be paying two mortgages or mortgage and rent etc on a teacher's salary.  I'm not sure about something else too... now, I realize CPRI isn't your every day school but to be principal so young... does that strike anyone else as odd? Any principals I've encountered have always been much older... more years of teaching under their belts.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 22, 2011, 09:48:09 PM
Managed to get to the Big Otter Creek Bridge on Cornell Road today. As Jesa said, it's not something one would stumble upon, the killer would likely have to be familiar with it.

What struck me about the area is that it's a strange little spot nestled in a valley, with Furnace Road intersecting at an odd angle, also coming down a hill. Why is it a strange place, at least for the killer to leave a body? A few reasons:

1) Yes, it is remote, but there are much more remote areas to be had, where the discovery might not have taken place for months, if not longer. As it was, Jackie had been in the water for only 4 days maximum before hunters found her.  Lynda White, placed in a shallow grave, was not located for four years.

2) Likely the killer would have stopped on the bridge, removed her from the trunk or back seat, and let her fall over the edge. There's no real room to pull over on the bridge, so this would have to happen quickly. Especially since, as I said, it's in a valley. There's a very steep hill to the west, and a blind curve from the southeast end of the bridge, as well as the incoming Furnace Road from the southeast. As I saw, there's very little opportunity to hide from cars which can appear very suddenly from either side.  Jackie's killer(s) would have had to be very sure and move quickly to make this happen in order to possibly not be surprised, though I have no doubt it happened in the wee hours of the morning with far less likelihood of traffic. I also don't think she would have carried from a parked vehicle farther away for the same reason.

3) While the plummet from the top would be about 30 feet, the water is quite shallow, probably about 2 feet deep at most. Her body would have impacted hard against the water, hit the bottom, and floated back up. The current is NOT strong.  While I'm sure the water managed to wash away some evidence (if that hadn't already been done), unlike the Thames, it would have done little else. Even at best she would not have been carried far at all. I speculate, based on where the investigator is coming up in the 1969 photo, she was found on the northeast side of the bridge. She likely would have drifted a few feet slowly, to be tucked in the almost still water just under that corner (as seen in the picture in the next post. It's an unfortunate feature of this board that I can't post more than 4 images at once, nor can I separate and discuss them individually).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 22, 2011, 10:05:22 PM
I lied in that last post-- I completely forgot I can drop images in directly without attaching them:


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell10.jpg)


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-CornellFurnaceRd.jpg)


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell9.jpg)


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-CornellFurnaceRd-2.jpg)

(Original articles for these LFP photos can be found on page 2-3 of this thread.)



(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell3.jpg)



Heading down the embankment, it's quite steep. You'd have to be quite sure-footed to make your way down, especially in the dark, and possibly wet with condensation at night. That's why it stands to reason that Jackie was dropped over the side. Though I'd be interested to know more about her earrings, which were removed from her ears but also left with her.


The view from the riverbank:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell4.jpg)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 22, 2011, 10:36:30 PM
A view looking west; it would make sense if the killer's vehicle approached the bridge from this direction, as it would be easier to pull over.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell8.jpg)


Another view from below:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell5.jpg)



From above:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell7.jpg)


This would be the area just under the east end of the bridge that I believe Jackie's body would have naturally drifted into. The current, such as it is, does not move at all here. It is very calm, and protected by part of the creek's bank. Though, admittedly, that topography may have changed slightly over the years. Even so, at the beginning of October, there would have been likely even less water flowing than now in mid-November.


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornell6.jpg)


As anyone might expect, being in the stillness and quiet under the bridge was a somber experience. Hard to fathom how what should be a place of natural tranquility could become a symbol of senseless brutality.









Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 22, 2011, 10:38:16 PM
A quick postscript--

One last thing-- here's a shot just slightly to the right of that. You can see the underside of the bridge reflecting, and the rocks beneath:


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornellfurnace-face.jpg)


I know one can look at clouds, or a Rorschach blot, or whatever, and impose whatever order one wants to see, but even so, I was a little startled when looking through the camera viewfinder, to see this image so clearly. Does anyone else see a face, or it just me?

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Cornellfurnace-face2.jpg)


I took it as a good omen.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 23, 2011, 06:33:38 AM
You don't know how glad I am you posted the close up photos of the face, Rkay. I have to admit, reading your description and the photos were a lot to take in. Something I couldn't do all at once and heavy so I can't imagine what it's like to be there. Well done.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on November 23, 2011, 06:46:03 AM
Just want to say what great work you people are doing in Jacqueline's memory.   I too, see the face in the water...actually very clearly, it must be a good omen, like you say.
I read your posts, but don't have anything to add, except what a hard working group of caring people you are!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 23, 2011, 07:35:56 AM
rkay:  Thank you for that.  The hair stood up on my head when I saw the face in the water.  (You are not forgotten ever, Jackie.  A1ways 1oved, dear1y missed.) 

         
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 23, 2011, 12:12:02 PM
rkay..what an amazing effort and thank you for getting these shots of the Cornell/Furnace Roads area and bridge. As you pointed out, this does appear to be an awkward choice for disposing of a victim.  As Jesa stated, the killer must have been familiar with this location. A killer's  familiar "comfort zone" perhaps. 

Does the face in the water resemble Jesus Christ or am I missing another image? Wow.. certainly a peaceful and good omen.            Jobo, thank you for your kind words..rkay is too modest to accept praise. :-)

Have faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 24, 2011, 07:28:40 AM
Interesting comment about the "comfort zone."  In my research years ago, thinking a1ong the same 1ine, I was ab1e to find one "possib1e 1ink or connection to this area.  However it is on1y specu1ation and I don't 1ike to specu1ate, so I won't mention it.  (Many times on this site specu1ation seems to turn into fact, when in fact it's on1y specu1ation.)  However, I'm sure someone wi11 come up with it.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 24, 2011, 09:41:01 AM
Thanks folks. And thanks again for clarifying the location for me, jeb. Returning in the daylight, it was clear the other bridge wasn't right.



Does the face in the water resemble Jesus Christ or am I missing another image? Wow.. certainly a peaceful and good omen.           
Have faith


I myself perceive it as a woman's face, smiling serenely. Here's another shot from a slightly different angle, before I 'caught' it. Even from a different vantage point, the face is still present. (And, if you look at a couple of the other photos I posted on the previous page, it can still be seen, slightly obscured).


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/1322058189-1.jpg)


While information-gathering was the intent of the trip, the message I choose to take from this makes the effort more than worth it.




Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 24, 2011, 12:31:50 PM
I see a woman's face too. I hope with all my heart that Jacquelin knows that not only do her siblings care deeply but so do people she never met.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Buster on November 24, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
Oddly, I see it as a MAN's face, high forehead, roman nosed with a thick moustache! Perhaps Jackie is showing her murderer's face to help us indentify him....
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 27, 2011, 05:06:07 PM
Thanks once again to jeb, I was able to pinpoint the 'farm pond' where Jackie's shoes were found (as seen in Oct 23, 1969 LFP article-- see page 4 of the thread, reply #46) this weekend. This farm pond area also is also referenced in the 1966 Georgia Jackson murder thread where poster jessy w also provided a lot of useful data.

It's a little confusing if one looks at a satellite view of Glencolin and Springer Hill Roads (formerly known as Bayham-Malahide Townline), as there are several bodies of water. After some discussion with the extremely helpful current property owners in that area, I discovered which ones were man-made and which would have been in existence back in 1969.


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Shoepond1.jpg)


This is a view of the northeast edge of the pond. The access road would have been on the opposite side.


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Shoepond2.jpg)


Back in the sixties, most of this vegetation wouldn't have been there. This was a gravel pit area, and the local kids would have gone swimming here during the day, and used the area for partying (and such) at night. The homes around the area were built 1988 and after, when the property was parcelled off. According to one resident, the local kids would take off their clothes completely to scare off the Mennonite children, who also lived nearby and used the swimming hole!


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Shoepond5.jpg)


Now, there are other smaller ponds on the far side of this, which I wasn't able to see, because of the change in land usage over the last few decades (and the spring that feeds them), but I believe they would've been one large pond back in the 60's.

Of course, the important point is finding the access road off Springer Hill Road, which I learned is now the driveway for one of the homes. However the old path that would have continued on from that and circled the southwest side of the pond is still in evidence:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Shoepond3-accessroad.jpg)


Apparently the Mennonites would also use this as a horse trail, but it's getting quite overgrown and covered with brush now. The current residents told me in the past they've even had a pickup truck drive across the field to the south (which would be on the left side of the above pic), get on the trail and then exit across their lawn to their driveway! If nothing else this tells us there may have been alternate ways to get to the swimming hole back then.

It was getting dark, so eventually pics unfortunately became useless. I would've liked to have followed the road around to the other side of the ponds. One reason I knew I had found the right location was that the residents told me the police had been there a few times over the years, mostly during the timeframe of Project Angel investigation to take a look at the leftover road. They particularly concentrated on this area:


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-Shoepond4-accessroad.jpg)


According to the current owners, the investigators said a body had been found here, and spent quite a bit of time here. While I'm not sure whether that's some miscommunication-- as my understanding that only Jackie's shoes were found here-- or refers to something else, possibly the Jackson case, I'm not sure at the moment.

Anyway, I really appreciate that both sets of homeowners took the time to show me around. Very kind of them.


Now, as far as confusion goes-- here's a question: According to the LFP article, the shoes were found IN the pond, thanks to a tip, and they sent scuba divers in to look. If they were in fact under water, I really doubt anyone would be going swimming in late October to see them there. So who gave them this 'tip'? One would think only the killer (or the person who left them there, who might not necessarily be the same person) would know they were there, in that case.

I'm wondering if this is incorrect and they were actually placed NEAR the pond, for someone to find, and the divers only went in to find more possible evidence. Though one might also ask why these shoes raised any questions, as a pair of shoes left in an area where teens were known to hang out, party and swim, doesn't necessarily raise suspicion. Again, in this scenario, could the tipster again be the killer, playing games with LE?

Lastly, I have to think the killer (or again, the depositor-- not necessarily the same) would definitely have had to know this area well. The access road is certainly off the beaten path, and, even less than the bridge, not something one would happen by or stumble on. One had to travel fairly deeply on this access road to get to the pond. And again, this area would be even less populated then.

Thoughts?



 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 27, 2011, 06:33:26 PM
This is so impressive, Rkay! Taking the time to do this investigating and talking to land owners etc... very very well done!

I would think that only someone who had actually been there could tell the police where the shoes were.  It looks so desolate and to be a gravel pit in the back in that day AND so off the beaten track... there is no other way if you ask me. I wonder how long they took to look for the shoes before finding them? It's almost the act of someone who had been along for the incident and was feeling severe guilt. Maybe they thought giving the police a little bit of information would get things solved without actually saying who did it or that they were there.  For the killer themselves to call it in seems a bit less plausible... I mean, if it was something they were doing to string the police along, why throw them in the water? Why not make them a little more obvious? They likely were thinking the shoes would never be found.

To call this tip in is in my opinion... guilt talking.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 27, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
Thanks again rkay for providing photos which give us a better perception of this area where Jackie's shoes were found.  There is no way that the killer or an accomplice did not know this area well, in my opinion.

To Google Map this property:  enter Glencolin Line,  Bayham, On.  you will see that Springer Hill Road crosses it just to the west.
The old access road is seen leading west off Spring Hill Rd., south of Glencolin, and just north of Harmony Acres Line.  The road now leads to a large green/blue building and the old trail is seen continuing behind the building south of the ponds.

I have never heard that a body was ever found at this gravel pit/swimming hole/night-time party site.  There was speculation by the locals, that Georgia Jackson was possibly murdered at his site 3 years earlier in 1966. Her body was found about 7 km away on Springfield Road, between Glencolin and Dingle Lines.  There are many similar characteristics between Jackie and Georgia's murders, but LE had Georgia's killer's DNA (David Bodemer) and I presume his did not match DNA from Jackie's evidence. I could speculate that DB was an accomplice only and left no DNA evidence.

The tip that led LE to finding Jackie's shoes could have come from a guilty accomplice, as Chick noted, or even a person who overheard or was told about it.  If the tip was from the killer, then I think he was enjoying taunting the police.  And making them have to "work" to find the shoes, just as they had to work to track down her other clothes which were strewn over a lenthly highway ditch area, many miles away from this scene.

Jesa had mentioned (reply# 209) that the shoes (left at the pond) were scraped clean on one inside shoe, and one outside shoe, which denotes that Jackie had been dragged.  Certainly being dragged across a section of a gravel pit could cause that degree of scraping. Could this be where Jackie was killed?

revised google map directions
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 27, 2011, 09:05:03 PM
Thanks Hf.


To Google Map this property:  enter Glencolin Line and Spring Hill Road, Bayham, On  N0L 1C0
The old access road is seen leading west off S.H. Rd., south of Glencolin, and just north of Harmony Acres Line.  The road now leads to a large green/blue building and the old trail is seen continuing behind the building south of the ponds.



If you look at the satellite photo, the access road appears as the driveway.  But if you change to just a 'map' view, that driveway remains as a road (whereas other driveways do not). That was added confirmation for me. And for the record, the green is actually the roof of the residents' home (which itself is red). Maybe I (or someone else, if so inclined) should add a screenshot here for easy reference.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on November 28, 2011, 09:20:53 PM
Great work, rkay!!

I only recall reading that the shoes were found "beside a pond", but then my memory isn't very good.

That pond area sure seems overgrown.  Even if it was less overgrown back at the time, it still would have been out of the way.  Surely someone familiar with the local area was involved!  If you were the killer, I'm guessing you wouldn't be just ramdomly driving around looking for an opportune spot to dump the shoes, particularly if it was really out of the way.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 15, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
Having done some digging at the LFP Archives at UWO, I've been fortunate to uncover the negatives of several dozen photos related to Jackie's case (and others). Some were the photos actually used in the Free Press articles, some are alternate takes, and most interestingly, many were images that were just never used, and likely have never been seen by anyone outside of the LFP staff. Either way, it suddenly opened up a whole world that was previously just conjecture.

I've been given permission to post a handful on this site for infomation-sharing purposes (please don't use them elsewhere). A special big thanks to the staff in the Archives Room for your help and attention to detail.

In the next little while I'll be rolling some out slowly, one or two at a time, so they can be discussed in depth. I was planning to proceed chronologically, but since our last conversation on the thread dealt with Jackie's shoes, I think this unpublished pic will settle a lot of speculation once and for all:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-32.jpg)


(Courtesy London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, Oct. 23, 1968)



This is OPP Constable Henry Harley, at the Aylmer gravel pit pond, pointing to where the shoes were found.

I have to admit I was excited to see this one, as it confirms that the shoes were not hidden in the water nor in the brush. Clearly they were left out in the open by the killer or accomplice to be discovered. The tip that the OPP received does seem a little more plausible to have come from a concerned citizen rather than a perpetrator; though, given the light dusting of snow present on Oct 23, I can't imagine much swimming was being done around this time. It also gives a solid sense of what the area in general was like then with far less foliage (the makeshift diving board is a nice touch for the teen hangout). And, given his grin, Officer Harley was no doubt disappointed his mug did not end up making the paper after all.

Anyway, one question answered!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 15, 2012, 06:17:36 PM
Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed with his grin? For some reason this is really annoying me... anyway

I was watching a show on TLC last night... for once it was showing real TV and not American Hoggers or the Dugars...  it was a 20/20 series of shows on cold cases. There is a group called the vidocq society. It's a group or professionals.. each with their own specialty... who work on cold cases and solve a great number of them. The one said there is a certain kind of murderer that leaves the victim in the open where it can be discovered. It indicates a person who in normal life is a bit of a blow hard and show off. Placing the shoes where they would be found in another location makes me wonder if it was all done as a big tease. If a person wanted to cover up what they had done there are hundreds of ways they could have done it easily. To me it sounds like the killer was a big show.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 15, 2012, 06:48:28 PM
I agree. Jackie's body was hardly hidden. Sure, the Otter Creek Bridge was off the beaten path, but she was never in danger of being carried away by that shallow water. The killer knew (or didn't care) that her body would be found. And the shoes, the clothing left along the highway in the ditch, and the pencils and perfume from her purse on Elmwood were clearly meant to be discovered. I wouldn't be surprised if other items, like her coat, purse and dress were also left somewhere but their importance wasn't recognized. There were any number of ways for the crime to be concealed for a very long time, if not forever, but that isn't what the killer(s) wanted.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 15, 2012, 10:47:56 PM
Good points Chick and rkay.  I have always felt that Jackie's killer distributed her personal effects over a wide territory as a way to taunt the police.  All of them bound to be discovered.  He relished the expected media attention...and had a good laugh.  How else could you explain FOUR different crime scenes-- the body dump site, the clothes dump site along a highway, the shoes dump site and the purse contents dump site 1/2 a block from her recently vacated apartment, all many miles apart from each other, but all found.  I wouldn't be surprised if he called in the tip about where to find the shoes.  These are classic signs of one type of serial killer. 

Chick--I caught a few minutes of the 20 20 program.  Didn't they get a guy who had a foot fetish?

I would also have to agree with Chick about the photo of the police officer smiling as he pointed to where Jackie's shoes were found.  I  think that photo was deemed inappropriate to publish by the London Press Press.  There are other similar photos with LE smiling at crime scenes, but I feel that they do not reflect the caring and determination to solve this case that the investigators felt.  JMO
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on January 16, 2012, 03:36:22 PM
I hate to a1ways disagree with everyone, but I have never thought of Jackie's c1othing "as having been p1aced" to taunt po1ice.  I've a1ways pictured in my mind, her ki11er or ki11ers in a panic, ditching her be1ongings as they were driving a1ong Hwy #3, and then dumping her body off of the bridge, to quick1y hide it.  Just my take on things.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 16, 2012, 05:36:41 PM
Jeb, okay, but how do you explain her shoes and her purse contents being left at two other sites? That doesn't sound like a panic action to me.  Also, if in a panic, why drive all the way to Otterville to dump her body in water and why not leave her clothes there at the same time?

These actions are different than in other cases, with the exception of Georgia Jackson.  In her case the killer (DB) left her scarf at one site and left her coat near the Police College.  LE stated that this coat action was done to taunt them.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 16, 2012, 09:14:29 PM
I'd have to agree with seeing these actions as very deliberate. If in a hurry, why not dispose of the items altogether all at once?  Or, if needing to conceal, why not toss the shoes (and possibly other items) into the pond rather than leaving them at the side?

The most dangerous stop for the killer(s) was the depositing of Jackie in Big Otter Creek, since they risked discovery at the scene with the body. I can see beating a hasty retreat away from there, perhaps not taking the time to go back to the vehicle to retrieve anything else. After that, with the clothes and other things, he/they had all the time in the world to get rid of those (unless, of course, he/they were expected elsewhere or on their own personal schedule/s.) I suppose there's no reason to assume that both things were even done in the same trip or even on the same day, or possibly even from the same vehicle, though of course the simplest and most direct solution would be that it was all done in the same drive.

You know, something else to consider that just occurred to me might be this (and this dovetails with an earlier speculation of Have faith's):

In my November trip to the pond (on the previous page), the current landowners were quite certain that the police that visited them had said that a body had been discovered there; in fact, showing me the spot the officers were most interested in. She said the officers spent a long time examining the spot. As I had no knowledge of a body (being there solely for the shoes), I wondered if there had been some kind of miscommunication there.

But what if there isn't actually a misunderstanding? What if the police during Project Angel were actually interested in that specific location, because, in the 1969 investigation of the area, based on a phoned-in tip, they found evidence, perhaps bloodstains or otherwise, that Jackie might actually have been killed in this spot? This might be something that went undisclosed or unreported, held back so the OPP could have something to work with that only the killer would know? Perhaps what the landowners told me is an inadvertent tipoff of the direction of the investigation.

(And in that case, perhaps if Jackie had been there alive, she took off the shoes herself, and, rather than being left deliberately by the killer, they were left by oversight when they departed?)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 16, 2012, 10:13:58 PM
Sorry to disagree JEB but  I think it was very deliberate. Between Otterville and London there must have been thousands of plain old garbage cans or bins to put everything or burn it ... anything.

Have Faith... they did catch the shoe fetish guy. Thanks to this vidocq society. Instead of concentrating on everything, the members have certain specialties and areas of expertise. Apparently they need co operation with the police (the police need to give them access to the files) but they get the job done.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on January 17, 2012, 05:37:54 AM
That Vidocq society has me fascinated.  I have seen shows where they have put their good heads together to solve crimes. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 17, 2012, 07:22:04 AM
I thought the society was fascinating too! Instead of having a CSI focused on all areas of evidence, they include a profiler, expert on each area. 

There is a post in the Project Angel thread that floored me... saying that London's police were not trained in homicide investigation in the 1960s. When were they trained?  I would think the training would be one thing but experience added to training would be vital in looking at these cases. This murderer wouldn't have been able to stop and must have gotten sloppy at some point so where is the connection? This is where the vidocq society could be vital in solving these cases.  If the police need to be pushed to let them in on cases then so be it. How long before they just 'man up' and say ''ok we need a hand here, we messed up and need a new set of eyes here"
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on January 20, 2012, 04:03:48 PM
With regards to the previous posts about the ki11er(s) taunting the po1ice:  (rkay, Chickapey and HF)  I guess we'11 just have to agree to disagree.  And that's OK with me.  Some points though, anyway:

1.  Can you direct me to a 1FP artic1e (or any artic1e) referring to the ki11er(s) taunting the po1ice, with respect to Jackie's case.  If the ki11er(s) were taunting the po1ice, then it wou1d appear that this fact was 1ost on the po1ice.

2.  Had the water 1eve1 in Big Otter Creek been high enough to carry Jackie's body downstream, then it's very possib1e that Jackie wou1dn't have been found for quite sometime.  It's a1so possib1e that investigators wou1d not have known where Jackie's body was actua11y dumped.  What this means to me then, is that investigators might never have found Jackie's c1othing a1ong Hwy#3.  And, a1though someone wou1d and did find Jackie's shoes, it's quite probab1e that the finder wou1dn't have thought that they might possib1y have be1onged to Jackie.  (In fact, he or she might not have even heard about Jackie.  It's a1so quite possib1e that the finder might have thought instead, that the shoes had been 1eft by some 1ate night party participant.)  The reason I have come to this conc1usion, is because unti1 Jackie's body was found, Jackie was just a missing person, not a high1y pub1isized murder victim.  (To the best of my know1edge the 1FP had on1y pub1ished 2 artic1es concerning Jackie's disappearance.)  In other words, had Jackie's body not been found unti1 (1et's say) the spring, and had it been carried downstream any distance, then the OPP and Arab wou1d probab1y not have been 1ooking for evidence a1ong Hwy#3 in October, and possib1y never.  (Depending upon where Jackie's body was found.)  And the fact that Jackie's shoes (and (in my opinion) probab1y Jackie as we11) had been at the farm pond, wou1d probab1y never have been known.  So, to assume the po1ice were being taunted we have to assume that the ki11er(s) knew that Jackie's body wou1d not be carried downstream and that it wou1d be found right away.  I don't know why, but I just don't see this as being a priority for someone driving around with a body in their car.     

3.  Chickapey's posts, November 27, 2011, 6:33:26 pm and January 15, 2012, 6:17:36 pm:  Chickapey:  Which is it.  Can't be both.

4.  Chickapey's post, January 16, 2012, 10:13:58 pm.  Chickapey, are you suggesting it wou1d have been more discreet for the ki11er(s) to pu11 into someones driveway or stop in front of a house, and then go around to the back of the house or into someone's backyard, 1ooking and hoping to find a garbage can to dispose of Jackie's c1othing.  Sorry....                 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 20, 2012, 08:38:09 PM
Jeb... I didn't say they could have pulled into someone's laneway. Dumpsters and trashcans can be anywhere... backs of businesses, placed in bags and dumped in trash cans in rest stops on the highway... there are more trash cans than just people's back yards. On any of my posts, I am thinking out loud and offering suggestions. None of us were there so no one other than the killer knows. I posted the first comment wondering aloud why the killer would throw them in the pond then as I stated saw a show with the cold cases and they offered another idea.

Again, we'll have to just have to agree to disagree. Nothing new there!

As for articles stating the police thought they were being taunted... was there even such a train of thought back then? It's not like profiling was around then. The OPP were not overrun with murders and likely were not overrun with experience dealing with homicides of young girls so they likely just took the obvious clues and tried to get the job done.  The police then weren't exactly trying to get into the head of the killer back then so why would the paper state anything other than the cold hard facts. The only constant is human behaviour. Lynda White and Soraya O Connell weren't found for years because they were either buried or found in a dump.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on January 21, 2012, 01:34:38 AM
Chickapey's post, January 20, 2012, 08:38:09 PM  "As for artic1es stating the po1ice thought they were being taunted... was there even such a train of thought back then."

Apparent1y so.

Rep1y #334 states,  "1E stated that this coat action was done to taunt them."

A1so, you say the OPP were not overrun with murders.  JD, FJ, S1, HB, BS, JE, SO.  (From Jan 68 to Aug 70.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 21, 2012, 06:45:44 AM
Jackie Dunleavy, Helga Beer, Soraya O'Connell (1970 BTW) Patricia Bovin, Jane Wooley, Lynda White were London police cases because they were abducted AND found in London.

Scott Leishman disappeared and found in OPP jurisdiction

Bruce Staypleton, Frankie Jensen, Jacquelin English were FIRST handled by London police THEN taken over by OPP since they disappeared in London and were found outside the jurisdiction, correct?   

OPP is and was a large organization so is that REALLY a lot of investigations for a police force of that size to handle? I don't think so.

If we agree to disagree, shouldn't it just end at that and not go on and on? Not to be rude but we're all here for the same reason? If so, then why point out perceived flaws ( going up a laneway to dump clothes vs using any number of more accessible dumpsters, whether law enforcement used modern thinking in 1969 or not etc.) and choose to answer some replies and not others? Just wondering... no need to answer. That's all I'm going to say.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on January 21, 2012, 04:46:16 PM
Just to carry on with corrections: 

There seems to be (have been) a1ot of specu1ation on this site, with regards to the farm pond.  (See posts 323 - 325, 327, 328, 335.)  In my opinion, this was caused by compounding "errors" in the 1FP at the time.  Here are the errors, for a11 of the specu1ators who don't have the time to read the 1FP artic1es.

Wednesday, October 22nd, 1969, "Tip gives OPP 'fighting chance' to so1ve murder of Jackie.":  ... "Her battered, nude body was 1ater found in a pond near Ti11sonburg."  [The tip mentioned in this artic1e is referring to a vehic1e and not to Jackie's shoes or the farm pond.]

Thursday, October 23rd, 1969, "Shoes found in farm pond may have been s1ain gir1's."  "A pair of brown 1oafers, tentative1y identified as those worn by murder victim Jacque1ine Eng1ish, were found in a farm pond about 5 mi1es northeast of Ay1mer, po1ice said Wednesday night."  And, from the same artic1e:  "The shoes were found beside the pond, he said.  Their discovery prompted a search of the pond by OPP divers but nothing was found."

Cou1d it be possib1e that the reporter had the information for two artic1es in his head, when he was writing the first artic1e.  So, body in Big Otter Creek became body in farm pond.  The next day shoes beside farm pond, became shoes in farm pond.     

       





   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 21, 2012, 07:18:26 PM
Hi Jeb:

Re perceived "taunting" of LE:  There are no LFP articles in Jackie's case.  Georgia's coat being left on/near the Police College property was blatant enough for most people to get the taunting significance.  This is my perspective (and others) after considering the whole case, not just one part. I have no idea if LE considered it in Jackie's case.

Your theory if Big Otter Creek had a higher water (reply 340, Jan. 20) and the resulting outcome if Jackie's body hadn't been found for a long time, is plausible.  I agree LE would not likely know to search along Hwy. 3.  It is possible that her clothes strewn along the ditch (in a panic) might never have been found.  I guess it's possible (but likely improbable) that her shoes left at the farm pond might not be recognized as hers.  But why weren't they tossed into the pond?  You still haven't addressed her purse contents being dumped in London at her old neighbourhood, which is possibly the most significant sign of "taunting".

You haven't convinced me that the killer(s) were in a panic. To me the opposite of "taunting" is to hide all evidence well, so that it is difficult to find.  So was the killer(s) panic stricken, incredibly stupid or smart and cocky?  Take note (they) took special care to make sure the incriminating murder weapon was never found. 

Re your reply#344 today: The only confusion re the farm pond, was whether Jackie's shoes were left in the pond or beside the pond.  That has been cleared up.  Naturally, we may also speculate if the farm pond was the murder site.

Your interpretation of Chickapey's reference to garbage cans and bins was so off the wall, I feel you have lost some credibility for having reasoned, logical thinking.   If you were merely being sarcastic then you should know it is not necessary nor appreciated.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Matty_46 on January 22, 2012, 12:34:40 AM
Hello All

I been reading these posts for a while but just signed up. I live in London now so these cases interest me especially. But the case of JE specifically because of where she was found. Otterville is a 10 minute drive from Delhi, where I grew up. I know the creeks in the area very well from trout fishing from a young age. And the bridge where JE was found was a spot my father had mentioned to me once about a girl being found there years ago long before I ever read about any of this. But I digress...the reason I signed up tonight was to put my two cents in. And they be this:

1) The creek system in the fall the water can be high, but not usually as high as in the spring. If JEs body was released further upstream, even in higher water its unlikely the current would take her all that far on the big otter. Like Big Creek, it has sets of faster water, but in other pockets, the water is near a stand still. So I would believe she was tossed right off the bridge into the water. And I know that spot quite well, it would certainly be a spot he had pre-picked as the path from London to Otterville has several other bridges, waterways and creeks without travelling all that distance.

2) Ive read so much of these posts in the last few weeks Im not certain if this has been mentioned before, but has anyone considered the suspect may have found these remote areas, by being an outdoors man himself? With the commonalities in the few "tissue cases" as they seem to be known, the areas mentioned could be fishing or hunting spots frequented by the perp. The thames river, big otter creek, the pond outside of aylmer. Just a thought.

3) Between Aylmer and Delhi, there are a ton of tobacco farms. I worked them myself in my teens. And in the time these murders took place, tobacco was much bigger than it has been reduced to now. People would come from all over the country, jamaica, mexico and so on, to work the crops. Perhaps he knew of the drop spots for the bodies and clothes from travels around farms. Once again, just an idea.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on January 22, 2012, 06:13:38 AM
jeb, though I clearly understand your anger, try to focus on the fact that all those who study these cold cases and comment here have a common goal and that is to help solve your sister's and my brother's murders.  I am so grateful for all that's being done here and you should be too.
 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 22, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Matty_46--Welcome and thanks for your interesting post.  It is always beneficial, and appreciated to get viewpoints from someone who is familiar with areas relating to these cases.

1) Your knowledge and viewpoint on the Big Otter Creek system is most welcome. 

2)  Interesting insight re the possibility of a killer being an outdoors man. I have researched and hypothesized on fishing and campgrounds as being a possible connection to a killer's "comfort zone". (see Robert Hall, Justice System-Pedophiles).  Hunting is one area I never considered and is worthy of further research.  I am clueless on this sport, so any help is welcome.  It seems evident that in some of the cases, where it is known that the body has been dumped in remote locations, that the killer must have had prior knowledge of the site (Jackie E., Frankie Jensen, Donna Awcock, Soraya O'Connell).

3) The migrant worker consideration is a novel and interesting one.  The area south and east of London from roughly St. Thomas to Otterville is one that we have considered as being known territory to at least one of the killers.   Other areas are north east London and north east of London (Thorndale, Stratford). I know that there was and still is a large migrant work force in Clinton, north of London.  I wonder what the likelihood is that these workers would have access to a vehicle?

Have faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Matty_46 on January 22, 2012, 01:28:49 PM
HF, thanks for the welcome and response. With the migrant worker idea, it is possible that a worker could have a car or perhaps access to a farm vehicle, but it doesnt seem to fit. I was more inclined with that idea, that the person might have been familiar with the areas because of the crops. Perhaps a sales person or maintenance worker that was familiar with the areas but may have resided in a centralized location like Aylmer, St T or in the city here. There are people that visit the farms occasionally for various reasons, but I would think a migrant worker in a beat up farm truck or borrowed car would be less likely to go unnoticed in the city. So I dont suspect a worker may be in the profile, but one of the others i mentioned could hold water.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 22, 2012, 02:52:36 PM
Welcome aboard Matty! The more the better and you have fantastic knowledge of the area which will be huge help.

I wonder if you know... would the migrant workers have to sign on and off the farms at that time? Just for immigration sake... would they be watched and at that time would they be treated more like slaves and not allowed off the property or anything like that?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Matty_46 on January 22, 2012, 03:13:29 PM
chickapey, workers wouldnt have been required to tell anyone where they were going or when, but its probable that if a worker left a farm someone would notice them gone. Usually bunkhouses hold between 4-8 people and are usually small and primative, in most instances they were all one room, with a kitchenette in one corner, a couch or common area in another and beds pretty much everywhere. So if someone left a farm for a considerable amount of time, say to abduct, or even put the leg work required due to the proximity of the abductions, I would immagine someone would notice. And in some of these cases, the events took place during winter where very little work would be available. So thats what would steer me into the maintenance, mechanic or delivery guy theory in relation to my post on the farms or knowledge of the area because of the farmland.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 23, 2012, 10:32:44 AM
Welcome to the boards, Matty. Any interest, insights, or information that you can add is gratefully received and encouraged.

Without getting into specifics about jeb's points at the moment, I do appreciate his efforts to challenge assumptions and force everyone here coming up with ideas to work a little harder. We can't really know many things for certain at this point, but it's good for all of us to remain open-minded and keep theories discussed on the thread fluid. (As a matter of fact, I believe in my last posting on the previous page, I started arguing one aspect, then came around to another view by the end of the post!)



As foghorn requested earlier, and since we seem to be discussing the bridge, I have some better images, once again thanks to the Weldon Library Archives, to share of what the location actually looked like at the time, taken on October 10th,1969. These can be compared with the current images, on page 21 of the thread:

Here is a better quality version of the original image as printed on the LFP front page:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-1.jpg)


This would be a view from where Furnace Road intersects with Cornell, looking the opposite direction:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-8.jpg)


Looking down the embankment on the northeast side of the bridge, where Jackie was found:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-4.jpg)


And directly over the side, to the water below:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-5.jpg)

(All four images reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, October 10, 1969).


As one can see, if you compare to the previous photos I took of the location, very little has changed in forty years. Some taller trees, a bit more vegetation on properties in the distance, but in essence the creek and surrounding area are the same

FYI, foghorn, there is in fact a home located on the northeast side of the embankment, but it is separated from the creek ravine by trees,  and is not all that close. I don't know if that house was present in 1969, but  in any case, I don't think it would've deterred the driver from stopping and depositing Jackie, if accomplished quickly. Obviously there are/were no street lights, so if the killer and/or accomplice turned the car's lights off, they would likely not be noticed at night (also keeping in mind that being early October, most folk would have had their windows closed which would have reduced the automobile sounds considerably).

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 23, 2012, 11:16:31 AM
I'm sure, being interviewed by a reporter in the wake of a terrible tragedy, that the store manager was just covering his and the store's collective asses. No doubt his other employees would be hesitant to go on the record and contradict their boss. And even if he believed this, would the manager actually be staying all the way until closing, to ensure that this was done anyway?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 23, 2012, 02:06:34 PM
rkay,

Just for the record, in case there is any misunderstanding, I also really appreciate Jeb's input.  I feel that I am open-minded and consider everyone's theories.  It is a very productive process to discuss different angles.

Hf
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on January 23, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
Good question about tire tracks on what looks to be a dirt road.  In fact, in the above picture of the bridge, with the Cop stepping off the ledge, has visible tire tracks pretty close to the side. 
Wonder how closely the Cops looked at the tracks, or did too many Cops show up and it was impossible.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 23, 2012, 06:13:48 PM
Does it seem likely that a pedestrian would be able to leave the store @ 10 pm and reach the bus stop by 10:15?  Just wondering if folks who may have walked the route in remembrance of Jackie might chime in on this.  Does anyone remember, from back in those days, whether it was a lengthy walk from store to road; also, might anyone recall specifically where the bus stop would have been?  My only recollection is that, even as late as 1977, that I took the bus out to a London Knight's hockey game.  We had a long walk from the bus stop to the rink - up and over the 401; it was a less than pleasant walk...the route did not seem to have pedestrian comfort in mind.  If it was only 15 minutes, it was a gruelling 15 minutes!


It's a bit of a trek. The bus stop was on the far side of the bridge over the 401 (north on Wellington), meaning Jackie would have had to walk over the bridge to catch it in time. I think it would have been possible to do it in 15 minutes but it would've meant leaving pretty much on time at 10. Itwould easily be about a ten minute walk now for my legs, and I imagine Jackie would have had to move pretty briskly to make it. If she had been delayed by several minutes it may be she felt she had no choice but to accept a ride.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 26, 2012, 10:09:07 PM
Another image from October 10, 1969.

Not sure if this was the one used in the article or an alternate shot (as the article repro quality is terrible). This is David Papple, Jackie's boyfriend, and her friend and co-worker Marilyn Hird, in the Englishes' living room (please correct me if I'm wrong on that point, jeb or Jesa).

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-23.jpg)

(Courtesy London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, The University of Western Ontario Archives, Oct 10, 1969)


A few other shots were taken, one of which has both of them looking at the camera, Marilyn smiling weakly as if the Freeps photographer was trying to nudge some sort of portrait shot. A little odd given the circumstances. There were also a number of images of Mr. Papple solo (was Marilyn brought in after?); I think the photog was quite taken with him and his cigarette.

No doubt an awkward time for both of them, to say the least.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 26, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Interesting body language in this. He looks devastated and a big angry which is understandable. She looks uncomfortable. Was this the first time Marilyn had been at the apartment? 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on January 27, 2012, 01:49:08 PM
rkay:  That's DP's 1iving room.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 27, 2012, 04:46:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification, jeb. I was going by the caption of the pic published on Oct. 10th, which said they "joined friends of the English family at 129 Kent St. today", so I presumed that's where the pic was taken. But I can imagine reporters would not have been welcome there at that time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on February 04, 2012, 11:46:45 PM
Here's a better look at the suspect sketch based on Mrs. Harrison's description of one of the two men she saw talking to Jackie on October 3rd:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-29.jpg)

The handwritten text at the bottom reads:
Description by Mrs. Vernon Harrison
171 Elgin St.
London


and on the lower right corner:
Dark Skin
Age 25-28
Slim- 145-150 lbs.
5'8" - 5'10"


Given the direction the case turns, this information becomes quite important. I'm sure at this point the police were confident they'd received a substantial break, and it was just a matter of time. Too bad it didn't turn out to be so clear-cut.

I still contend that the image is improperly proportioned from an artistic standpoint (as discussed in reply #167, page 12 of the thread) which may slant the perception of the likeness. And, as mentioned earlier, Mrs. Harrison claimed later that she didn't feel it was terribly accurate.

OPP Chief Inspector Harry McBride at the press conference:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-28.jpg)

And, discussing the sketch:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder1-Oct1969-30.jpg)

(All three images reprinted courtesy the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario, October 19, 1969.)

I'm still trying to enlarge and work out the text in his binder open on the desk. There are some dates, names, and a bracketed area marked "Report from Lab".

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 08, 2012, 11:47:44 AM
rkay--thanks for those uploads.  The composite drawing is about as clear as you can get, even if it is a dreadful drawing.

       --I was interested in your recent uploads to Karen Caughlin's thread (Sarnia, age 14, Mar. 16/74, beaten, run over by car)
        due to the similarity in her case to Jackie's, whereby there are at least three separate crime scenes and both murder sites
         are unknown. I am merely comparing the use of separate crime scenes by a killer.

Karen Caughlin
-murder site unkown
-body dumped in ditch on isolated dirt road NW of Petrolia
-shoes and coat removed and found a short distance from body, under branches
- purse found several days later in a ditch, SE of body dump site

As noted above, this killer(s) also used separate locations to dispose of the body and personal effects. Det. Insp. Ian Maule, who is/was also in charge of Jackie's case, had this to say at a press conference in March 2010.
quote:
"Clearly someone knows how her shoes, coat and purse came to rest at separate locations from where her body was found.  They were specifically placed there."

While Det. Insp. Maule isn't saying that these actions were done as a way to taunt police, he is stating that they were deliberate actions.  I feel it is the same deliberate actions taken by Jackie's killer.  My guess, based on serial killer research, and G. Jackson's taunting theory by LE, is that it was the same.

It is also interesting to note that LE feel that the "removal" of Karen's shoes was a deliberate action.

(Karen Caughlin thread, Reply #30, Jan. 30/12: trevor daily. wordpress: Ian Maule, speaking notes)

HF

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on February 12, 2012, 03:09:47 PM
Hi Have Faith:

Can you p1ease give me your reference for stating "and GJ's taunting theory by 1E" in your post February 8, 2012, 11:47:44 AM. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 12, 2012, 04:51:07 PM
Hi Jeb,

This quote is found in the Windsor Star article, which is the first link by Freeman, Reply # 2, Aug. 8 on Georgia Jackson's thread.

" Two boys found the coat Sunday in the area of the police college in this town near St. Thomas.  Police speculated the coat might have been purposely placed there".

There is also a post from a local Aylmer person who made a reference to police taunting. (reply # 5) although no source is given and must be deemed hearsay.

Did you ever consider that Jackie's killer may have been in contact with LE?  When some of her clothes were found near Richmond, the LFP reported (Oct. 14/69) "Police were intensifying their search in an other area in an effort to locate the remainder of the girl's clothing.  They did not pin point the area."  This sounds like they were working on a tip, imo.  We know they received a tip about where to find her shoes, and LE would have to make that tip public, due to the isolated location.  I also wondered how they knew to bring their tracking dog to a road which was 18 miles away, and in another township, from the body disposal site.  Maybe just a lucky guess, or maybe they covered all the territory to that point.

I sure hope DB was ruled out in Jackie's case by hard evidence.

HF

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on February 13, 2012, 01:21:02 PM
Hi Have Faith:

Thanks for answering so quick1y.  Just to 1et you know, next to rkay, I appreciate your input the most.  For the most part we seem to agree.  However, since this topic is subjective in nature, I'm going to add another a1ternative to the board.

With regards to the quote taken from the Windsor Star:  The key words are "might have been".  And (I be1ieve) the reason that thought was even considered is because of the proximity of the coat to the OPC.  But keep in mind, the OPC just happens to be 1ocated north of the town...

With regards to your hearsay comment:  The artic1e in the 1FP dated Wednesday, June 21, 1972 shows this posters comment to be incorrect.

With regards to your comment where you have quoted the 1FP "(Oct 14, 69)":  The vehic1e sto1en from the shopping centre, parking 1ot on Saturday, October 4, 1969, was found southwest of 1ondon, on October 14, 1969.  So possib1y this is where the OPP were intensifying their search.  In any case, after searching the area around the bridge where Jackie's body was found, it's on1y 1ogica1 that the OPP wou1d extend their search to areas between the pickup 1ocation and the bridge 1ocation.

With regards to your comment "...a tip about where to find her shoes....due to the iso1ated 1ocation.":  Why wou1d the OPP have to make that tip pub1ic, due to the iso1ated 1ocation.

A thought, possib1y a question:  What is the difference between "a tip" and just p1ain o1d, "giving the po1ice info."  As an examp1e, and this is my opinion on1y:  Two duck hunters found Jackie's body, ca11ed the po1ice, identified themse1ves, and gave the po1ice info.  That is "giving the po1ice info."  Somebody found Jackie's shoes, ca11ed the po1ice, didn't identify themse1ves, and gave the po1ice info.  That is "a tip."  The on1y difference between "giving the po1ice info" or giving the po1ice "a tip" is whether or not an ID is given.  So, is it 1ogica1 to conc1ude that a11 tips are meant to taunt the po1ice, and if so, what is the purpose of "crimestoppers."  I hope you can see my point here.               
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 13, 2012, 04:25:58 PM
Hi Jeb,

My view on giving "tips" and "giving info" to LE is basically the same as you described.  The only tip that I would label as "taunting police" would be a tip given by the killer himself.  "Organized" serial killers are known to contact LE for this reason.  I will admit that the taunting theory from me primarily came to mind as it relates to a certain suspect who displayed this type of psychological propensity...you know...the one who vacuumed his front lawn while under police surveillance. If I consider other types of killers, the chances of "taunting" actions are reduced.

We now know, that David Bodemer, being a local, would have known the location of the Ont. Police College when he placed G.J.'s coat behind a tree nearby.  To me that pretty well validates LE's speculation that this action "might have been" a taunting gesture. Yes, as you say it was on his route out of town, and I'll consider that it was perhaps merely convenient to dump the coat there.

Regarding the LFP's mention of the stolen car in the same article from which I quoted in my earlier PM-- the reporter started a new paragraph to reference the car search and the wording "investigators are ALSO pressing their search for a car.." which led me to think the car and the "other" intensified search for clothing are two separate subjects.

Re the tip on where to find Jackie's shoes..I felt that LE provided this info about it being a tip, since the shoes were located in a place that would never have been searched...so they answered an obvious ensuing question.  That's all I meant by that.

As you stated, this topic is subjective.  Thanks for giving your views.

HF



 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on February 14, 2012, 03:51:50 PM
Hi Have Faith:

I had previous1y questioned (to myse1f) with regards to your taunting theory, whether you were profi1ing the evidence in Jackie's case or whether you were profi1ing a POI.  And you have confirmed in your post, that you were indeed profi1ing a POI.  (The reason I questioned this, is because the on1y way I cou1d see anyone coming up with a taunting theory, wou1d be if their 1ine of reasoning went as fo11ows:  BH's attacker is a1so Jackie's murderer.  BH's attacker taunted BH (not the po1ice) ERGO Jackie's murderer must a1so be a taunter.  And the c1osest thing you cou1d find that even 1ooked 1ike taunting, was the separate crime scenes, which apparent1y had crossed no one e1ses mind.  The first I heard of taunting after 42 years, was from you, on1ine here.) 

Anyone aware of the scientific method, knows that you postu1ate a theory that fits the facts.  You don't fudge the facts to fit a preconceived theory.  If the facts don't fit a current theory, you retest the facts.  And if they sti11 don't fit, you discard the existing theory, not the facts.  The same is true of profi1ing.  You 1ook at the data or facts, and you come up with a profi1e, not of a sing1e person, but of a type of person, so to speak.  My understanding is, that, if a profi1er is offered info on a POI, he abso1ute1y turns that info down as he knows it wi11 bias his thinking and u1timate1y his profi1e.

In my opinion, and my opinion on1y, (and I'm not a profi1er or anything remote1y c1ose to one) a11 of the info from the 1FP artic1es points towards a disorganized ki11er.  In my opinion, it a1so points towards youth (person(s) under about 25-years-of age, or at 1east emotiona11y under that age.)               
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 14, 2012, 05:19:03 PM
I was not constructing a "profile" I was addressing specific actions of Jackie's killer, all of which I have outlined and the reasons I think some of these actions are taunting gestures.

The fact that I can picture a certain suspect acting in this way is just a logical thought transference. The fact that some of these actions are related to what I have read of "organized" killers is just that.  If I was to guess if Jackie's killer was organized or disorganized I would have to do much more research.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on February 15, 2012, 04:55:03 PM
Hi Have Faith:

This wi11 be my 1ast post on taunting, at 1east for the time being.  (Probab1y not forever.)

My on1y point right now, is this.  If one has to doctor the facts (the evidence) in order to va1idate a theory (any POI), then you can be sure that the theory is wrong.  (The POI is wrong.)  When you do this, you're getting into pseudo-science, pseudo-profi1ing, or pseudo-ana1yzing.  But the key word is pseudo (fa1se.)

With regards to doctoring the evidence I'm referring to the fo11owing:  when you specu1ate that an anonymous tip about Jackie's shoes, is actua11y an anonymous tip from her ki11er;  when you specu1ate that the po1ice have extended their search, not because it is time to do so, but because the ki11er is in contact with the po1ice and directing their search."; when you specu1ate that c1othes discarded a1ong a ha1f-mi1e stretch of highway, have to have been discarded there, to taunt po1ice; and when you specu1ate that Jackie's body was discarded in (what you had a1ready determined was an iso1ated 1ocation) in order to taunt po1ice.

But thanks to both Have Faith and Foghorn for their comments.  Much appreciated.           
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 15, 2012, 06:13:37 PM
Hi Jeb,  I'm going to act like you for a minute :-)

Could you please direct me to where I said "that Jackie's body was discarded in (what I had already determined was an isolated location) in order to taunt police?"  Thank you.

Also, could you please tell me what you think of the purse contents, believed to belong to Jackie, being found at the Normal School in her old neighbourhood?  Thank you.

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 15, 2012, 06:21:57 PM
Hi foghorn,

You have made some interesting points and have asked some good questions.  You have also expressed well, the trials of working from media articles and trying to find information from elusive historical articles.

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on February 16, 2012, 05:14:55 PM
Continuing the LFP photos, here are some dealing with the assault on Betty Harrison, in December, 1969.

Key to unlocking Jackie's case, or enormous red herring? Or bizarrely somewhere in-between?  In any event, apparently Betty was attacked the previous evening (judging by the shadows, these are taken early the following morning on the 12th) by a man she claimed was one of the two that she spotted talking to Jackie at work the evening before she was taken. At this point (and not until the trial the following fall) she had not been publicly identified as the person who had supplied the description of the suspect sketch.

This first image is the same as used on the front page of the Free Press to first report the story. It is looking eastward on Green Valley Road, as Hubrey Road (identified in the street sign on the lower right of the image) crosses north-south.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-1.jpg)


I have to admit, I have a bit of confusion finding this spot in present-day. If one looks at the intersection looking southward, as seen in the photo below, Hubrey clearly extends extensively beyond the intersection:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-2.jpg)

 
However, currently Hubrey ends at Green Valley, with a sharp curve built in. If one looks at the first image, one can see the creek on the northeast side of the intersection (the signs along the road say "WARNING FLOODING ON ROAD" and "ROAD UNDER REPAIR"). There is a bridge over the creek on Hubrey (as seen in the second photo) Neither of these things exist currently, which means there has been extensive terraforming going on in this area since 1969. On current Google Maps, there is a creek further south, closer to Dingman Drive,  but that's too far away. However, there is one that travels south from Highbury but turns sharply north to meet Wilton Grove Road, before it can intersect with Hubrey. My best guess is, given the 'flooding' mentioned near this intersection, at some point the creek must've been diverted away and the southerly part of Hubrey Road pulled up and turned back into farmland. Very strange, but I can't really see any other explanation. The point is, the area doesn't look like this anymore, so we can't get a solid understanding of what might have transpired there now.

The same intersection, now looking north up Hubrey:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-3.jpg)


In other images, the police spend a fair bit of time taking a look around this bridge, as well as a second one which I haven't yet placed but I believe is further up Green Valley Road.  Offhand, I can't recall from the description of the attack if/how they fit in, but it might be useful to try to piece together a rough 'map' of where Mrs. Harrison said her vehicle travelled.


(All images courtesy the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, December 12, 1969)



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on February 17, 2012, 08:16:00 PM
This question is for jeb...  did any of Jackie's friends keep in touch with you and the family after this happened and do they to this day? No names, obviously but just curious if they are in touch with you as to how the case is going?

Great photos as usual, Rkay... I wonder why MrsH decided to take her dog to this area to begin with? Was this a common thing to do? It just seems kind of odd sequence of events
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on February 17, 2012, 10:35:32 PM
Chickapey, I have to say that I've always found BH's story 'unusual' and a bit difficult to believe, frankly.  This is just my opinion and I know I'm probably in the minority on this.  Why did she go to this remote location immediately after receiving a threatening card in the mail? The description of her injuries in some of the news articles makes me curious. They sound superficial.  And, finally, the story about driving one way down Hubrey with the attacker and then turning around and driving the other way, and finally somehow finding herself in the passenger seat just seems tough to swallow.

Call me a skeptic, because that is what I am, as far as BH's story goes.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on February 18, 2012, 11:08:59 PM
Although I also felt that it was odd that Betty Harrison would go to this isolated area with her dog, after receiving a threatening note earlier, I feel the need to post some facts that we shouldn't lose sight of.

Re: why was the dog (Cindy) driven to Concession Rd. 4 and Hubrey?  Her son Richard is quoted in the LFPress as saying that this was part of Cindy's regular exercise and was an almost daily routine.

Re: her injuries sounding superficial.
-she spent 10 days in hospital and was initially listed as being only in "fair" condition
-she suffered fractured facial bones around her eyes
-she had 27 slash/stab wounds
-she had a "quite deep shoulder wound"
-she had "big cuts on her hands
-her attacker was attacked by her dog which LE feel probably saved her life

If there is doubt that this attack never happened and belief that her wounds were self-inflicted:
-LE found man sized, cross-threaded boot prints at the scene of the attack
-Judge Colter had this to say in his summation "As I remarked earlier, there can be no doubt that she was the victim of a cowardly, vicious attack by a man who could only be a psychopath".

There is no doubt in my mind that B. Harrison was attacked on Dec.11.

HF



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on March 06, 2012, 09:30:53 PM
Taken the day after Betty Harrison was hospitalized:

Her Volkswagen where the assault took place, in police custody:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-14.jpg)


171 Elgin St:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-15.jpg)


Lastly, outside the home, 20-year-old Richard Harrison, with 'hero dog' Cindy (I don't think she is anywhere near as 'dumpy' as the article described her):

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder2-Dec1969-17.jpg)


(All images courtesy the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, December 12, 1969)


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Elstreet on March 09, 2012, 09:54:56 PM
There is a Glen Fryer listed as the president of this club on the link below, if you click on his picture you get a [df file with a bio of him that mentions he was teacher in London and then various other places around Toronto.  When I compare the face with that in some of the old pictures on this thread I am fairly sure it is him

http://www.citroenvie.com/Citroen_Autoclub_Canada/CAC_Member_Profiles.html

I went to this link today and all information under GF name has been deleted. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on March 10, 2012, 06:13:07 AM
Wow, that's really weird....I went to that site just now and clicked on GF and you're right Elstreet, it's no longer available...I wonder why
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on March 11, 2012, 07:19:54 PM
No editorial choice or conspiracy there... all of the member profiles at that site are down. I expect it's merely a technical issue that will be resolved at some point.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on March 12, 2012, 04:21:57 AM
I think you're right rkay, the page is probably being updated.  In looking through Citroen Club's Christmas pictures it seems GF REALLY loves that white sweater!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on March 12, 2012, 11:32:22 AM
Jensen--- Sorry to laugh, but your comment on the white sweater just cracked me up.  LOL

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on March 13, 2012, 03:29:52 AM
HF it's all about the fashion!  Perhaps in the updating, a little colour could be photo-shopped in?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 17, 2012, 02:08:00 PM
A very special  Birthday today. Jackie would have been 58 today. All the love in the world to you, Jackie. We are not giving up!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on July 23, 2012, 09:15:19 AM
I have just found this site and wondered if Jeb would be interested in information I unwittingly discovered in 1970 and gave to the police. It made no sense to me at that time because I was not able to put the pieces together but the police certainly could. They came back to see me several times and I was able to tell them things I did not know was important.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 23, 2012, 12:43:38 PM
[quote birdy)
I have just found this site and wondered if Jeb would be interested in information I unwittingly discovered in 1970 and gave to the police. It made no sense to me at that time because I was not able to put the pieces together but the police certainly could. They came back to see me several times and I was able to tell them things I did not know was important.
[/quote]

Hi birdy.  You could certainly send Jeb, and Jackie's sister, Jesa a Private Message.  I am sure they would appreciate it.

Have faith
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on July 23, 2012, 01:02:16 PM
Dear HF, I'm sorry but I have no idea how to reach them.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on July 23, 2012, 01:39:37 PM
Dear HF, I'm sorry but I have no idea how to reach them.

Hi birdy,

Both Jeb and Jesa are members here. To send either of them a private message: Find their name on the members list which can be viewed by clicking on 'Members' near the top right of the page. Click on the name of the member you wish to send a message to. That will open their profile. At the left side of the profile you will see 'Send PM'. Click on that and it will open to allow you to compose a message. When you are done composing simply click on send.

You can watch for a return reply by viewing your own messages at the top of the page. A number will appear beside the word 'Message' to correspond with how many messages you have.

Hope that helps,
Debbie
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 23, 2012, 10:41:37 PM
Thank you so much for joining , Birdy!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mitch1 on July 27, 2012, 04:19:49 AM
hi  please tell me glen fryer has finally been caught     he made my life hell as a young child.  my parents were involved with the Betty Harrison trail as witnesses   there isn't a day that has gone by that I keep hoping he finally got what he deserved
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 27, 2012, 09:31:56 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Mitch1. No child should have to live through trauma.  As far as I know, he is living in the GTA .
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 27, 2012, 02:58:37 PM
[quote author=mitch1 )
hi  please tell me glen fryer has finally been caught     he made my life hell as a young child.  my parents were involved with the Betty Harrison trail as witnesses   there isn't a day that has gone by that I keep hoping he finally got what he deserved
[/quote]

Hi mitch1,

Sorry to hear that you suffered because of GF.  He has not been "caught" for anything.  Innocent as a lamb I guess.  Hopefully LE will one day revisit him.  The advancements in DNA technology warrant this IMO.

Thanks for posting Mitch1.

Have faith



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 30, 2012, 10:15:00 PM
Hmm... did someone edit out some posts in this thread? Seems to me earlier tonight there were 27 pages, now there are 26. Curious.

Anyway, after a longer-than-expected hiatus, I'm back to continue with more unpublished-or-better-quality images associated with Jackie's case from the London Free Press archives. Most of these have likely remained unseen for over four decades.

Moving forward from the search for Jackie and the aftermath, followed by the attack on Betty Harrison, we now focus on the trial of Glen Fryer in 1970.

Those who have been along the ride for this ever-growing thread may remember this was the first image I could find of Mr. Fryer in the LFP (reply #68, on page 5):

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/JackieEnglish-HarrisoncaseJuly301970.jpg)

My first response on seeing this photo was how sinister and smirking he appeared, with beady eyes glaring from deep-set sockets, as he almost appears to do an arrogant, Trudeau-like jig for the camera. Higher-quality reproduction certainly allows much more to be gleaned from this image than it's microfiched and poorly printed cousin.

The published July 30, 1970 picture of Fryer as he entered his preliminary hearing is actually the third in a series of three. While I didn't get a copy of the first (and now I wish I had), the second shows that Fryer is not alone at the entrance, off Talbot Street (as the street sign is clearly visible behind them).  He is accompanied by his wife Ruth and an unidentified bailiff (I presume).

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-1.jpg)



Glen is dressed in his green suit, that later became a point of contention at the trial: in December, he claimed he bought the suit in November, but the Crown reminded him that he was actually wearing it on this date back in July. Oops! Ruth Fryer looks younger and is dressed far more stylishly than what the later published photos on December 23rd/70 would have had one believe, where she appears much more matronly. At any rate, they seem to be walking at a brisk pace. Glen seems annoyed at the photographer, Ernie Lee, and Ruth seems shocked. The bailiff just wants to get to his coffee break. Perhaps there are more reporters and cameramen present than just Mr. Lee. It's possible they were calling out questions.

The third photo:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-2.jpg)

(Both above images reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, July 30, 1970. Thanks again.)


In this image, Ruth now seems to have recovered and become standoffish, and the bailiff is trying to usher them through the door (note his right hand). Glen is not doing a jig as it first seemed to me, but is actually stepping upward; the 'smirk' is actually an open mouth as he says something, which, along with the shrug now appears to be more of a "I don't know what you're doing here, guys, this isn't a big deal". Perhaps there is an attempt to turn on the charm for the reporters? Regardless, he felt he had to give some kind of response at that moment before entering. Contrast that with the rushing and stern expression in the previous photo, taken a second or two earlier. Much can be seen with the increased clarity of the eyes and facial expression.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/fryer/GlenFryerJuly301970comparisonphotos.jpg)


Also interesting how Ruth is left completely out of the published picture.

Anyway, just goes to show how much is lost when working with terrible photocopies and scratched microfiche. Like any investigation, whether police detective, reporter, or those just searching for truth, the larger, brighter, and fuller a picture that can be found, the better.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on July 30, 2012, 10:32:33 PM
This was taken 42 years ago to the date. Thanks rkay for the upload & the description. This was the beginning of the end of his unknown existence .....life in privacy.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on July 30, 2012, 10:41:35 PM
I knew there was a reason that date sounded familiar!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 31, 2012, 06:59:54 AM
The other man has been edited out too. I wonder why they would do that seeing as it was likely more effort back then than now. I think they are standing on Carling Street with their backs to Talbot. That scene would now be the Bell  building and the ramp to underground parking and the little courtyard between that and the fed building. He is for sure about to go up a step but still looks like he's an arrogant "square". Mrs Fryers hair and dress are modern and up to date for 1970 (for a mom and woman of her age) but in the other pics from after the trial, she's gone back in time by ten years with a slight bouffant, Jackie Kennedy 'do and horrible ankle boots, frumpy old lady coat and standing by her man. I've heard from people on the London site he was a 'handsome man' but I don't see it... that's for sure.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on July 31, 2012, 07:59:41 PM
If this case was published in a book, it would be labelled fiction with all its twists and turns.  I have been reading it over and over for several months now.  I moved to London in 1971 and worked with a woman who had been Glen Fryer's  secretary at CPRI - but at the time unfortunately, I didn't ask her more details.  But I do remember being rather nervous about going out alone in London because there had been many unsolved murders and rapes.  How does London's unsolved murder rates compare to other areas? 
I keep wondering how someone knew that Betty Harrison gave information to the police.  That seems rather important in view of the incidents that followed.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on August 01, 2012, 04:36:45 PM
Betty Harrison told her boss and he told his wife,who  spread it around her work.
Birdy
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 01, 2012, 07:35:53 PM
So logic would say that the stalker/stabber was probably within the 1 or 2 degrees of separation from her boss - at least less than the movie  with 6 degrees of separation.  What happened to her boss and his wife over the years ?   Did they ever remember anything that was unusual in their circle of friends ?  I also wondered why her boss drove Betty Harrison to her appointment with Dr. Johnson.   He would also have known that she was off work early and that she often took her dog for a run in the country.  Was that information shared too or does anyone know?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 01, 2012, 09:48:47 PM
Hi elsie, and birdy, welcome to the boards! Feel free to ask questions or chip in as you see fit.

I also wondered why her boss drove Betty Harrison to her appointment with Dr. Johnson.   


As you pointed out there are a million questions that can be asked in this thread. Here's one to which I can give you an 'answer'. Dr. Harvey Murphy, the chiropractor (also a published author in the field) was friends with Mr. Fryer. The LFP article on this thread for Nov 27, 1970 (page 6, post # 80 ) says, "While driving home after the interview, the woman [Mrs. Harrison] said, Dr. Murphy told her that he had gone to see a friend of his there, the principal of the CPRI School, Fryer". Now, this is supposedly after Betty Harrison had her conversation with Dr. Johnson, in which they had already established, in discussing Fryer, that "he's a friend of my boss".  So, presumably his name had come up on the ride there as well. At that point, it doesn't seem like Mrs. Harrison knew anything but Fryer's name; i.e., hadn't actually seen his face in association with knowing who he was-- as far as we know.

As to the direct reason why Dr. Murphy drove Betty out to the CPRI, it may be that her husband had the car. She had recently sold the Volkswagen later in December after the attack (which is when the vehicle liability insurance card was discovered missing) so possibly she required a ride after work, and her boss offered, ostensibly with the dual purpose of visiting his friend while Betty had her appointment.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 02, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
Quote-Jesa:

"I am thankful that I have learned this valuable information & appreciate everyone's efforts to unveil the truth to me, as the truth is what is of value.
As difficult as it is to revisit this time frame, I can never express my gratitude to the people who come forward to offer information to aid in the resolution of Jackie's case."

Amen. These people who have come forward really care.  They tracked down this site, or were directed to it, and saw a way of giving Jackie's sister information.  It doesn't get any better than that. This is what family members pray for.  Thank you to the caring insiders who reached out to Jackie's sister.  Jesa, we know how difficult it is for you to revisit this time after time.  Hang in there.  :-)

HF




Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 09, 2012, 06:20:30 PM
Interesting to google Glen Fryer -   
1. There is one listed in Ontario -  Brantford   Charing Cross Street   Fryer, Glen R.

2. This is an American case in Lima Ohio      but strange co-incidence...  This a copied news clip.
                                           "   Girl's remains found in rapist's basement
Monday, February 20, 2012
LIMA, Ohio -- The skeletal remains of a 14-year-old Ohio runaway who went missing in 1999 have been found after the home where she was last seen was demolished, according to police.

The Lima News reports (http://bit.ly/wcPcgl ) that Lima police on Saturday said the remains of Nicholle Coppler were found in a crawl space as the home's foundation was being dug out. Allen County Coroner Gary Beasley said they were identified through dental records.

The home was owned by Glen Fryer, who had been suspected in Coppler's death. The newspaper reports he was 55 when he killed himself in 2002 while awaiting sentencing for raping a girl."
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 10, 2012, 07:27:32 PM
Yes, it is an unfortunate coincidence of names.



Here are two photos of Betty Harrison, taken at the beginning of the trial in late November. The first shows her arriving on November 23th:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-5.jpg)

(Image reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, November 23, 1970.)


She's the one in the middle with the folder over her face.


And when she arrives on November 25th:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-4.jpg)

(Image reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, November 25, 1970.)


As one can see, there's a pretty obvious reason why neither of these images were ever used in the Free Press coverage of the trial. Betty Harrison clearly did not want her picture taken. Of the six photos taken of the woman on the two days, these are the best images to be had. One can imagine the photographer's frustration of not getting a quality shot of the most important Crown witness.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/Nov251970closeupBettyHarrison.jpg)

I'm not sure who the man ahead and the woman behind are. The gentleman appears to be an official escort, possibly a plainclothes police officer? And I suspect the woman behind is a friend of Betty Harrison's. Anyone know?

(Also, as an aside, note that in the first picture we get a good shot of Judge Colter's car.)

In any event, what I get from these two images, and the sequences they come from, is that Betty Harrison had no interest in having her picture in the paper. She's transferred her folder (what might this contain?) to the hand on whatever side the photographer was stationed in an effort block her face, and keeps her head down with no interest in meeting anyone's gaze. To me, this suggests that she was definitely no publicity-seeker, and was reluctantly involved in this process, rather than gaining any sort of pleasure or enjoying any notoriety from the experience.


What we are left with, as the face for this woman, is a portrait from a LFP court sketch artist, which one has to take on faith for an accurate likeness:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/Nov271970imageofBettyHarrison.jpg)


The image seems to depict a rather plain-looking woman, with slightly unkempt hair who hasn't spent a lot of time on her appearance. There is a clear element of consternation in the pronounced frown. Apparently, the court had to be recessed at least twice to allow her to compose herself.


It would be nice to have a transcript of the trial available, to find out at what specific points those occurred (among other things). Yet, none so far have surfaced. Unfortunately, the crown only keeps transcripts if there are plans to appeal the verdict, and in this case, they didn't.

If anyone has any ideas where another image of Betty Harrison, or a surviving transcript, might be found, feel free to chime in.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mitch1 on August 11, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
the folder she was holding was one the crown gave her just so she could hide her face
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 11, 2012, 11:13:52 AM
That makes sense, mitch1, thanks. It appears in the first photo she's holding a legal-sized envelope and in the second a couple of file folders, so likely whatever was at hand. To my mind, her behaviour here lends credence to the sincerity of her belief in her testimony.

The accuracy can still be viewed as a separate discussion, of course, but my point is that she doesn't convey an attempt to make headlines and bask in the limelight. Inviting attention for its own sake was not a motive. In fact, come to think of it, most of the time her name is couched as "Mrs. Verdun Harrison".
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 11, 2012, 12:36:44 PM
The fortitude & courage that BH  found, in trying to assist with Jackie's murder is a scarce trait & I only wish I were able to thank her personally. The sacrifice she made in the hope of aiding Jackie, was costly. Not only did this very private woman have to endure the publicity of the trial & the endless terrorizing of not only her family but also other families who offered to assist her during this time but the ultimate price...their lives!
I spoke with Betty years ago & I do remember her terror & her concern for our family. I don't think I realized that she suffered an insidious horror daily & just what a sacrifice she made, attempting to help in finding Jackie's killer. It appears that she must have at least wondered in hindsight, whether she had made a difference because of the outcome of the trial. She did make a difference....a huge difference because without her testimony...we would be left with no direction.
She (BH) suffered tremendously, personally & while fearing for her family & friends, by coming forward. So not only am I  grateful & indebted to her....I will continue to pursue her identification of the person responsible. I believe Betty & her family paid the price with their lives.
How could it be plausible to identify an innocent person & still be harassed by the guilty person? I can not comprehend a productive point.
To ALL of the people who have been wounded by this event, I apologize for your unending suffering & stand in awe & gratitude of the Betty Harrison& the people whose lives were forever altered by doing the "right" thing & sharing the facts, to resolve Jackie's murder. We have not been defeated & we are not afraid of the truth & we are still seeking justice.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on August 11, 2012, 01:24:25 PM
You are such a good soul, Jesa.

Your post brought tears to my eyes.  You are so thoughtful....and correct.

One of my daughters was witness to an attack and was asked to go to court.  She did, but she was afraid because she worked where the attack took place, and felt the perp would come after her.  Thank goodness he didn't because the Police had no consideration for my daughter's safety, and didn't protect her, or keep her anonymous. 

If I am recalling correctly....didn't BH's home burn down with them in it?  Sad.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 11, 2012, 07:17:31 PM
Hi Jobo

I can certainly understand your fear for your daughter's safety & am so happy to hear that everything ended well. Bravo for her for her assistance & her bravery ....
What an awful position she was placed in....a witness to an attack at her place of employment.

You raised a girl to be proud of. Glad she is safe!

Yes, the Harrison family were all killed in a house fire in 1973. Ruled accidental.

Thank you for your kind words...but I do have an obligation to pursue Betty's testimony wholeheartedly in order that her ordeal over the years was not in vain.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on August 12, 2012, 06:09:10 AM
I agree Jesa...People such as Betty (and even my daughter) did what was right eventhough they could have been in danger.  As it turned out, Betty was in danger.
May Betty RIP.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on August 13, 2012, 11:56:56 AM
Would anyone know the names of secretaries working at CPRI during the the period 1970 -1972. There may be an obscure rconnection to a witness. The secretary is now deceased but we need her name as our witness has forgotten it. It may or may not be important. So if anyone remembers or has access to a list of staff, I would like to follow up this lead even if it proves to be a dead  end. Please pardon the expression.
  Birdy



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 13, 2012, 07:38:40 PM
Hi guys... Just checking in with the iPad (which is a challenge) . I may be able to find out a few names when I get back on Thursday
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 13, 2012, 07:45:07 PM
Thanks birdy for the suggestion & thanks fog for the names. Everything is followed up by the crew & we will post when & if we can.
Everyone's input is so important & nothing is overlooked. We need to revisit all leads & are working hard to get answers.
Sometimes it takes a little time but everything is looked at with our fresh eyes.
So happy when others make suggestions, or ask questions.....it gives us new leads to follow. And we all know this case has a very high probability of resolution & in the very near future, in my opinion.
Thanks to so much new info from new people, we are making headway. I am energized & excited by all I am learning from our new sources.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 13, 2012, 07:47:14 PM
Yeah Chick.....you are missed. You'll soon be back well rested.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 14, 2012, 02:00:55 PM
Can anyone give us a better sense of the CPRI?


 CPRI served children with some type of problem. They were referred by doctors or the school system. The children were tested, recommendations were made and reports written and discussion meetings held for their families and workers .  Many children were outpatients and sometimes CPRI liaison staff would do follow-up visits. 
Some children lived in residence and attended the school for special programs and treatment.  The aim was to integrate them back to their homes, community and school, either into a regular class or a special needs class. Now students  stay for only short periods of time compared to the "60 and 70's.
Maybe some students were also day students too. 
There was some research and development of programs but I don't know much about that side, or about the relationships within the institution  or with Katherine Harley School.  Katherine Harley also served children with learning problems so there would have been some interaction with CPRI services.
 I will try to find more information.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on August 14, 2012, 02:27:17 PM
I have a relative ( by marriage), who is what at that time was referred to as mentally retarded, now known as developmentally delayed or challenged, who attended Katherine Harley in the late 60s, early 70's.  She lived at home in London and commuted. I did not meet her  until much later so I don't know the details of school life there
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 14, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
Thanks elsie and freeman for your input.  Good questions from foghorn.  I look forward to learning how the schools worked, and how CPRI worked (to put it simply).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on August 15, 2012, 09:50:23 AM
Thank you Foghorn for the names of the secretaries. Unfortunately neither was the correct  person. Also, the police detective who interviewed us, told us that the killer was closely connected to CPRI they did not have enough proof to ensure a conviction. So they tried to get him on the lesser charge of attacking BH. It now appears he may have been having an affair with a married secretary from CPRI. Then this woman suddenly passed away in 1972 or early 73. Did she know too much? This may be conjecture but I would like to rule it out.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 15, 2012, 02:58:31 PM
Interesting points about the location of Jacqueline Dunleavy's body.   To brainstorm another idea, it could have been possible that the killer/rapist  may have been disturbed and felt it necessary to dump the body as quickly as possible.

Did anyone ever hear that a body of a  young resident from the CPRI  program was found in the snow on the grounds?
Supposedly it was never publicized and that is all that I heard many years ago.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mitch1 on August 16, 2012, 09:54:10 PM
   As far as CPRI  yes there was some kids who did not go to the school.  when they were finished at the school. they usually were old enough to leave CPRI  and would go either to other programs outside.  99% of the kids who went to the school were patients of CPRI   CPRI  was hospital for kids with mental problems.  the kids ranged in age from babies to 17 years of age, at 18 they went to group homes or adult programs.    the only problem I knew of between the doctors and the principal  was when GF   was principal.  there were two groups of secretaries   the school had their own and the doctors and the hospital had theirs.   Sorry I don't remember any names of the secretaries   wish I could remember    all I remember is a couple of first names. 
 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on August 17, 2012, 03:54:41 AM
Hello and thank you Mitch1, birdy and Elsie for all your input.  I wonder Mitch1, if you posted the first names of the secretaries you remember, if it might jog the memories of someone else?  I also wonder if any of the boys who found JD might have been students at CPRI.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mitch1 on August 20, 2012, 11:59:14 AM
the only names I remember are Joanne,  Barb  and karen or kelly  I wish I could remember last names but it has been quite awhile and I wasn't that old hope this helps someone remember.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 21, 2012, 11:53:21 AM
Mitch1 I was just wondering if you remember if these ladies worked on the school or medical side?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 21, 2012, 05:07:37 PM
Does anyone know where Dr. Johnson, the psychologist and her husband or children live now ?  They may have details to share regarding names of employees.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 21, 2012, 05:13:44 PM
Unfortunately, I believe Dr. Johnson and Reverend Johnson have both passed away some time ago.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 21, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Hi all...I would like to understand the connection of CPRI to the Harley school. I know nothing about the Harley school (nothing) & would like someone to bring me up to speed.
Most of my knowledge is about the Glen Fryer accusations, the trial & my personal experiences regarding him.
My research has yielded nothing positive about this man...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 22, 2012, 09:24:30 AM
Does anyone know what kind of earrings Jackie was wearing, the ones they said were found near her body?  Were they pierced or clip ons,  loops or studs?  Jane Sims wrote that Jackie's earrings were found a short distance from her body.  She wrote this in her final story from a series she wrote in 1990 about unsolved crimes. I find this odd with the police speculation that her body was thrown off the bridge.  Does anyone have any thoughts or information they would like to share that might expalin this?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on August 22, 2012, 10:26:53 AM
I believe Jesa has told us that severl times. I believe they were pierced.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 22, 2012, 12:00:19 PM
Hi all...Jackie's ears were pierced & the earrings I recall were a dark stone drop type...not hoops nor studs. My understanding is the earrings were found very near her body in the creek. Since I doubt anyone would walk down there...I think they were probably tossed over the bridge after Jackie was. Note : earrings were removed, not ripped out.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 22, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
My thoughts....the earrings were likely going to be kept as a souvenir, but a last moment decision not to keep them. I have always had that thought....for 40 years. It makes no sense any other way   to me.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 22, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
I agree Jesa, I can't imagine another explanation either.  I am actually amazed that the police found the earrings in the water.  Was there any other jewelry missing from Jackie's collection that you recall?  Did the police ask the family this same question? 

I believe that any known missing jewelry, would be information that the police would hold back from the public. If the jewelry turns up later, it would be a direct link to the victim and the killer.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 22, 2012, 08:48:33 PM
It makes me wonder though... what was the reason for not keeping the earrings after removing them carefully? If someone else was there, was there some kind of disagreement over who was to keep them resulting in one of the people just tossing them over the bridge to settle things? If the killer had the habit of keeping things from assaults or other murders, would something else have been kept instead?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Karens Voice on August 23, 2012, 08:38:16 AM
Karen's earrings were also removed and never found!  They were removed not riped out!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 23, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
Thanks to all those contributing to the discussions and adding new info or perspectives. Great to have some new voices added.

Progressing into the period of the Glen Fryer trial in our photographic research into Jackie's case, this photo was taken of Mr. Fryer's residence at 598 Headley Drive in London, by the Free Press on December 17, a week before the trial ended.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-6.jpg)
(Image reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, December 17, 1970.)


The Fryer family moved in early 1968 from Old South to this home on Headley at the corner of Plymouth Avenue (interestingly, according to public records, the home was originally addressed to be along Plymouth Ave, until, at some point in mid-1968, it was re-designated to be included as on Headley; not sure why that happened, but I suppose it makes sense given the front door faces that direction. Anyone have an idea specifically why?).
Ostensibly, the move made sense, as the CPRI where Mr. Fryer worked was literally now a hop, skip and a jump a half-block away on Sanitorium Road.


Likely by now the editors at the LFP would have been getting a tad frustrated with the several weeks of trial, yet with very few visuals to accompany their coverage, so probably the photographer either chose or was dispatched to get something, anything. It would be a week before Fryer would be acquitted and mention in his 'victory' interview (Dec 23, see page 9 of thread, reply #131) that he enjoyed bewildering the surveilling police officers by vacuuming up the dandelion seeds on his property, but this gives us a view of the lawn where that would have occurred (albeit under snow).

That would still be in the future, though, and acquittal could not have been foretold, so it's more likely the LFP was most interested in getting these shots:

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-7.jpg)

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/JackieEnglishLFPpixbinder3-19701973-9.jpg)

(Both above images reproduced courtesy of the London Free Press Collection of Photographic Negatives, the University of Western Ontario Archives, December 17, 1970.)


Because vehicles figure so prominently in not only Jackie's abduction (with her actually witnessed getting into the rear of a dark-coloured sedan, the fateful night on Oct 4th, 1969) but also the assault on Betty Harrison (the assailant leaving in a dark-coloured Ford), no doubt people would have been interested in seeing what Mr. Fryer had in the driveway, though apparently he and his wife owned a total of four automobiles at the time.

The white Ambassador Rambler station wagon at the front is consistent with the white station wagon that Mrs. Harrison testified that she spotted and identified Fryer as her assailant behind the wheel of, at a police radar stop, on May 8th, 1970 (see reply #130, judge's summation, p. 9). The toboggans leaning against it may mean that it wasn't being used much in the winter (or it may mean the Fryer kids tended to leave stuff around, like most). The decals on the side and rear also indicates that at least one of the Fryers was an Amway representative at the time.

The second car is likely the blue/(or is it 'turquoise-blue'?) car with the dented rear fender that witness Jack McVey and defence lawyer A.J. Baker discuss on December 8th (see Dec. 9th article, reply #120, page 9).  I can't claim to be car-savvy enough to verify the make or model without some visual clue, but I'll find out, unless someone else can pipe in.

In any case, the LFP chose not to use these admittedly static images, but they do offer a record for us now. It's too bad Mr. Fryer didn't at least oblige them with an attempt to vacuum the driveway snow.

If anyone who lived around the neighbourhood has any recollections of that time, feel free to share on the thread or via PM. As the Fryers mention in the December 23rd wrap-up article, apparently the street was constantly filled with curiousity-seekers wanting a glimpse of their home during the weeks of the trial.







Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 24, 2012, 06:05:56 AM
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/2730/541/31822770013_large.jpg

The car has features that closely resemble a 1961 4-dr ford fairlane.  Note that this car changes in appearance almost every year - so you have to check out the '61 model.   If link, above, does not take you to CarDomain, simly go to Google and type in 1961 ford fairlane and a number of images will be available.  Other images will show you the tail section - round tail lights etc.  Ford Fairlane (and Falcon)and other ford models) had the classic ford bullet-style tail lights from 1961 - 1964.  The tail lights were distinctive from chev, chrysler and studebakers in terms of shape, where they were located and number of taillights (ie. single, vs. pairs).  Also, most of the Ford taillights were different from the Mercury ones (despite cross-branding similarities in other aspects).  Some Dodge cars had round taillights - so not a 100% diagnostic test.  Prior to 61 and after 64, the shape of the ford tail light changed (although some of the pre-61 models had round lights - but they were set lower on the car, causing a change in the chrome bumper).  Generally, they would be a distinguishing feature of the car - and would help investigators working with a witness to determine make (manufacturer at least) and approximate year. 

In the Wed, Oct. 29th LFP article, it states (with reference to a witness who noticed a car on the overpass) that they were looking for a light to med. blue ford (3-4 years old).  This would put the car into the 65/66 era.  The shape of the tail light for this model ford would be an upright oval.  Although still positioned on the car as with the earlier models, and still a single light on each side of the bumper, it would not have been "round", although oval and round are still pretty close.   The LE mentioned that the car had a distinctive feature - which was not revealed specifically in the articles; it could refer to tail lights, which a witness might have noticed, or it could be something else (like a dent or sticker?).

In BH's account of her attack, again a ford is mentioned, but I think she referred to a 64-67 dark coloured ford.  In this case, the '64 would still have round tail lights; it would be difficult to discriminate a 64 from a 61 because during this period, many of the ford models (sedans at least) remained relatively static in design.  Overhaul of design was in the mid sixties.   I think that BH did spend some time looking for cars that matched the one her assailant drove.  Again, she was probably basing some of this on backends of cars (as seen in a driveway).  Tail light assembly would therefore be important.  If I recall she described the car @ Headley as somewhat matching the one driven by her assailant.  Of course - back in the sixties - fords were pretty common....they could be found in probably most driveways.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 24, 2012, 07:45:10 AM
Two more pics of 61 fairlane.


The car in the previous post shows one of the 4 "blue" paint colours used on the '61 fairlane; it is most likely their "aquamarine"colour which was a colour match to the satellite blue of the '59 Fords.   I wonder whether such a blue colour might be described as "light to medium blue", but - in poor lighting might be considered "dark coloured"?

'61 fairlanes also came in Starlight blue (very light coloured), Chesapeake Blue (very dark coloured), Silver gray (looked like grey primer), Cambridge Blue (a teal colour), Mint Green (very light green - perhaps like the one on this posting - top), Garden turquoise (dark green), and Laurel Green (dark green).   Of the ten or so colours available, it seems that blue and green were pretty popular in the early 60's.

Of course - given the times, (and being a ford), any car colour would have an admixture of rust tinting after 8 years.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 24, 2012, 08:23:42 AM
Karens Voice.  Just wondering if you see any other simularties between these 2 cases?  Anyone else?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: birdy on August 24, 2012, 08:31:33 AM
Hey rkay,
Regarding the address change: Back in the day, taxes were based on front footage and if you had a corner lot you were allowed to choose which was the front of your house and obviously the shortest "frontage" was usually the side of the house often on a different street from the one you would expect. Nowadays, with the current assessment policy your land is only part of the equation.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 24, 2012, 09:29:52 AM
Gotcha! Thanks for clearing that up, birdy!

And good eyes, foghorn. I also showed my mechanic this morning and independently and without hesitation he said that, within a year, it was probably a 1961 Ford Fairlane (though he also said there was a slight chance it could be a Ford Meteor, but he couldn't see the grill to be sure). So no doubt your call is the correct one. Thanks!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on August 24, 2012, 06:48:21 PM
Karen's Voice....I do see some similarities with these two cases.  The strangest thing is definately the earrings. Both victims were close in age, both had dark hair. Serial killers are most times always on the look out for a specific appearance in their victims. Karen and Jackie we're also both on the petite side. It makes me angry that predators commit these horrific crimes and then continue on with their own lives when there was no regard for human life for the victims.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on August 25, 2012, 02:15:40 AM
The comment by Karen's Voice led me to wonder if Amway reps might have picked up their merchandise closer to the US border.  Wonder where the distribution center for Amway was back in the late 60's.  London was a test center so it's possible there was a local facility at some point.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 25, 2012, 05:55:37 AM
From http://www.amway.ca/about-amway/our-company/heritage/history-timeline

"1962
In October of 1962, Amway opens its first International office in London, Ontario, Canada. This would be the second of over the eventual 80 countries and territories that Amway would expand into."

London had an outlet; however, there may have been meetings in other locations such as Port Huron, Sarnia etc.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 25, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
The only Amway office I remember is on Exeter Rd ... or hwy 135 at the time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 25, 2012, 10:14:26 PM
Quote: Karen's Voice:

"Karen's earrings were also removed and never found!  They were removed not riped out!"


Was this information, or a description of Karen's earrings ever made public?  I don't recall reading anything about this on her thread, but I may have missed it. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 29, 2012, 12:24:03 PM
Information about the cars in question (the one spotted the night of Jackie's murder, the one later noted by BH, and the one shown in the picture provided by Rkay) is very elusive and needs to be tracked carefully throughout the various LFP clippings.   In summary, here is a bit of what is there

1. As noted by two witnesses, the car that Jackie was last seen entering was "dark".  [note...in some of our threads, we have started talking about a lighter coloured car, but this may have been the stolen grey sedan that was in question for a while after it was found burnt out on a reserve].  However, in the Oct. 29th article, there is mention that the car, seen on the overpass was a light to medium blue ford.  Somehow, subsequent to that report in the paper, the car then continued to be described as "dark".  Can anyone help out here??  Is the second witness, the one from Welland, the one that police ultimately believed...and this may have locked the final description as being a dark car.
2. The second witness that came forward describing that car also noted something distinctive...and police may have held this back
3. As noted by Judge Colter in his summation, at some point Mrs. English and Mrs Magee drove around London looking for this car.  I am guessing that the police may have told Mrs. English about the distinctive characteristic of this car.  Otherwise...looking for a dark car would be casting a rather big net. 
4. The car described by BH, after her attack was described as a dark car.  This, in later testimony, is described as a "black car".  She also thought she saw the word Falcon on the car.  It had, as she describes, and as related by Colter, large round tail lights. {see article within reply 127}
5. BH thinks she saw the same car on the night someone banged on her door



So - a bit confusing.  From this, we learn that the B&W photo provided by RK which depicts a very "light coloured car", is in fact a picture of a car that is greenish (and a relatively blue-green dark tone) according to testimony.  Curious.  BW images of various colours - that might appear dark (when in coloured pics) may appear light (when in black and white pics).  There is some scientific info that supports this (and will spare you the details on that).

Also confusing - BH noted the words Falcon on the back of the car she saw during her attack.  This is a very specific bit of information, and would exclude the Fairlane car which does not have this (nor does it have other lettering that would be confused for Falcon).   Although the 61 Fairlane has the large round tail lights (which fits), it clearly lacks the distinctive "falcon" letters on the back.  I am surprised the defense did not jump all over this - it is a specific detail that would actually very much help his client.

Overall, like many aspects of the case that Judge Colter was addessing, there are some aspects of the cars and their descriptions that fit - but other aspects that don't fit.  The specific detail that BH offers - that being noting the cars model (falcon) seems particularly relevant.  Unless she imagined this, it should have been used as valuable info by the defense. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 29, 2012, 12:31:51 PM
Back end of ford falcon; in later models (past 66 I think), the large lettering was no longer there (and replaced by small lettering in right corner of back end of car). Bottom car is a '61, top is '65.  Note small changes to tail lights.

 [Amendment:  the word "Falcon" in large lettering spread across the entire back of the car began in 61 and persisted through 65.  Then, for what seems like a model year and a bit, Ford began to make the word less easily seen (first by centering the word Falcon within chrome so it was hard to see), and then by shifting the word Falcon to much smaller font and placing it on the right edge of the back end of the car.  During this period, the use of large lettering depended on the specific type of falcon (ie. wagon vs sedan etc.).  Then, they roared back in 67 with Falcon clearly visible across the entire back of the car, and this persisted for the next few model years.  So:  if BH did see the word Falcon on the car, it could refer to a model pre-66 or post 66.]

[Amendment 2:  checked on other ford models to see if other words that might look like falcon, could have been displayed on backs of cars.  For example Fairlane, or Frontenac.  As far as I can tell, it was only the Falcon that had the big lettering across the back.  Apparently Ford was flaunting the word Falcon, as they beat Chrysler to the patent office by 20 minutes on gaining access to this model name (this might be urban myth). ]

[Amendment 3:  checking on the colour options for Ford Fairlane in 61, the Garden Turquoise is a relatively dark green.  I think that most would describe a car with this colour as being a dark car. In testimony, the word turquoise was used to described the principal's Fairlane.  Whether McVie's assessment of "turqoise" is the same as Ford's assessment of turquoise (ie...a dark green) is unknown; Ford did have a lot of funny green colours for that model year, and not all are as dark as the Garden Turquoise.  Nevertheless many of the shades of green would be considered blue-green, thus at least coming close to one of the descriptions of the car noted at the overpass.]

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on August 29, 2012, 04:24:42 PM
Some honest, hardworking, UNBIASED, research.  Good work, Fog.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on August 29, 2012, 06:35:54 PM
Yes, good stuff, foghorn! And welcome back, jeb.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 29, 2012, 07:22:12 PM
I'm glad someone knows about cars! I wouldn't know where to start. Good stuff Foghorn.

Welcome back, Jeb.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 05:45:44 AM
Looking at the ford info for paint colours for garden turquoise...it looks very much like today's shutter green (ie. really dark - and really green).[ I was not able to provide a picture of the actual paint chip - sorry!  However if you look it up on the web you can quickly find reference pictures...will try to figure out how to post it here...].  However, the following pictures are apparently of a contemporary ('61) fords with garden turqoise (same paint shade was shared between a few ford models in 61...and the galaxie was a subtype of fairlane).  To my eye, although relatively dark green-blue, it is still a few shades lighter than what the ford paint chip shows it to be.    I am struck that, even in the pictures provided, the colour changes dramatically depending on the amount of light catching the car. 

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 30, 2012, 06:18:00 AM
How would these colours appear in the dark though? I don't remember how well or how poorly that overpass was lit at that time... could that effect the way the paint colour was viewed as



 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 07:33:08 AM
Green at night?  This seems to be a tough one to find out for sure.  Interesting that at night, a lawn & tree foliage will appear very dark.  Therefore I am tempted to think that a turquoise coloured car, at night, would not be detected as a coloured car but rather some tone of deep gray.  However, in saying that, the picture that rkay posted of a turquoise car, in a B&W picture appears light grey.  So - does a B&W picture of the daytime appearance of turquoise differ from our perception of colour at night?  I am guessing it does.

Note: it would be relevant to know whether there was any lighting on the overpass.  If so - I guess that colours would be quite visible.  Also, I suppose that even at night, if dark, the beams from a cars headlight (if passing over the car in question) would reveal its colour.  This divergence might explain why one witness might have described the car as blue-green (ie. if the car was coming up behind the car in question and its headlights shone on the car's paint), whereas another witness - if coming from the opposite direction - may not have had the benefit of headlight illumination onto the car surface.  Thus - for that witness - the car may have remained in the dark - and therefore the colour was not perceived, but rather as a shade of grey (therefore the car described as "dark").
 
The image attached shows a blue-green coloured car.  Notice how, depending on the amount of light striking it, the colour is either visible or not.  When "not", the car appears quite dark.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 30, 2012, 08:58:32 AM
Sunlight can fade paint on a car.  Could the paint chip be faded?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 09:08:35 AM
Hi Charity,

I would assume that the paint on the car would certainly be subjected to fading...a 61 car would have a good chance to fade by the latter part of the decade.

When I said paint "chip" I was referring to the index picture that was shown on the website for car colour matching...so it wasn't something that would fade.  I was unable to get the pictures from the preferred website, but found another that was showing the colours...and they appear identical to the shades shown in the first website.  So, I will try to post them here to give a sense of the various green shades that would likely have been available for the 61 fairlane.   I can post four of the here - with the garden turquoise being the one perhaps of most interest (although some of the other certainly are green-blue).  On the next post I will add two more colours.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 09:13:53 AM
And a couple more - again these are original colours available for the 61 fairlane. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 30, 2012, 09:21:43 AM
On reply 120 there is witness testimony by Jack James McVey who was a teacher CPRI.  It is the news story dated Dec 8, 1970 around column 7.  They discuss the colour of GF's car and the dent. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 09:38:38 AM
Thank CG,

I did read that passage, and the vice principal is describing the car as being green-blue and agrees about it being turquoise.  However, turquoise as a colour description seems to encompass a bit of a broad range.  For example, by the mid sixties, Ford was still using a turquoise paint for some car models, but the hue of green had changed quite a bit from '61 )they shifted from Garden Turquoise to Forest Turquoise which was even more to the blue end of things).   So, for the V-P to use the word turquoise, he may not have actually been referring to "Garden Turquoise" as marketed by Ford, but rather to any of the green-blue paint combinations that - to him - might pass for turquoise.   

To my mind's eye, of the colour samples in the previous colour sample posts there are three that someone might call blue-green, and if pressed, a witness might agree that it could be turquoise.  Of these three, I think at least two of them might appear dark at night. 

Below are three different versions of turquoise that Ford used on Fairlanes - changing as the year's progressed.  The significance in any of this remains that - would such a colour be described as blue-green by one witness (perhaps aided by lighting) or simply as "dark" by another witness (perhaps unaided by lighting)?  If so, we might have agreement between the two witnesses who saw the car on the overpass, and perhaps developing partial agreement with BH's observation of the vehicle colour (again...black or dark).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 30, 2012, 10:28:38 AM
Foghorn are you sure you are remembering the right passage as Jack James McVey was a teacher.  I believe the principle was Joseph Murphy.  Mr McVey testimony was that GF's car was blue with a dent in the fender.  The defense attorney, Mr Baker then tried to get Mr McVey to agree that GF's car was turquoise-blue to which he would only agree that is was a bluish colour.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 30, 2012, 11:13:11 AM
Thanks CG, 





                   

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on August 30, 2012, 02:22:15 PM
I found reverence to the dent on reply 52.  Seems a second witness described a similar car at the scene of JE's disappearance.  They claimed the car had damage to the right rear fender.  It is not said but maybe this is what drew the attention of the first witness.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on August 31, 2012, 06:00:47 AM
Thanks GC,

A while back, JEB had advised us to the benefit of reading all the LFP articles very carefully and trying to keep facts straight.  It was good advice - and I should have followed it!  It is difficult to find, at a glance, all of the information on the cars in question because the bits and pieces of information seem to be tucked away in various articles.  It would be a very valuable function of our group if we could take the time to pull apart the various LFP reports and post detailed notes on some of the more critical aspects.  [volunteers??]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on September 04, 2012, 09:54:25 AM
Your welcome Foghorn.  I have just started to go over all the information that is why I remember some of these details.  I also decided to write down the names of all people mentioned for my own reference which has helped me.  I could post this list when I am completed if you like.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on September 05, 2012, 09:40:49 AM
Hi CG,

There is quite a bit of information tucked away in the LFP articles and anything that can be done to accurately summarize the information and make it more available would be of benefit.

Just something to follow up on the car colour discussion.  Might it be possible to discern a car's colour based on a black and white image in the newspaper?  Blue-green colours (as posted on replies 452 and 453) when these colours were converted to grey scale.  I also found, on the internet, several ford cars of the same vintage, claiming to have authentic paint colours.  Also converted these to grey scale.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on September 05, 2012, 09:44:14 AM
Same approach attempted for Garden Turquoise - which I think is too dark.  (note: cars of this approximate colour appear pretty close to black at night).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on September 05, 2012, 10:38:19 AM
Nicely done!


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on September 05, 2012, 02:00:58 PM
Fantastic work Foghorn and the starlight blue is much more blue than Blue/green or turquoise.  Anything you can contribute organizing names and facts will be greatly appreciated by all of us on these boards Charity Grace....Thank you!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on September 06, 2012, 07:37:47 AM
Is evidence still saved ?
 Would there be any possibility of finding DNA ?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 07, 2012, 03:19:26 PM
What was the lighting like on that overpass back then? I also wondered about the drive in nearby... would it still be in operation that late in the season and if yes, wouldn't there be a bit of light pollution from the screens creating a bit more light?  I wonder if there was a hockey game that night too... \]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on September 09, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
There wasn't a London Knights game that night, their season did not start until Oct 26, of course there could have been other games or events at the Gardens.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 10, 2012, 06:28:03 AM
Thanks Freeman... do you remember what other events would have been held at the Gardens? Do you remember if movies would still be going on at the drive in that late in the season? Just trying to get an idea of how much light there was. For some reason I remembered the overpasses as being not the best lit areas and trying to get an idea of what it was like then because it's nothing like now, obviously.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 10, 2012, 11:15:26 AM
Hi freeman,

Could you please guide me toward where you found the info on the London Knight's game schedule for 1969?  It was reported that Jackie and her friend M. Hird, accepted a ride after work on the Friday night (Oct. 3) by two men who had just come from a hockey game. 

I wonder if there is any way to find out what other hockey games would have been played at the Gardens on Oct. 3, 1969. (although LE probably checked this out, at the time).  Is it possible that the men lied about being at a hockey game at the Gardens?  It would have been the correct time for a 7pm game to be over.  They were drinking beer in the car--sounds like hockey fans.  :-)

Thanks,

HF
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on September 10, 2012, 01:52:53 PM
In the fa11 of 1969, the Boston Bruins he1d their pre-season training camp in 1ondon.  On Friday October 3, they p1ayed an exhibition game at the1ondon Gardens.  (I be1ieve it was against another NH1 team.) 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 10, 2012, 01:59:19 PM
What other events were held at the Gardens? I remember Platimun Blonde being there in the 80s and didn't a few big names play there in the 60s too? I am at a bit of a loss as this was almost two years before I was born. JEB do you remember if movies would have been playing at a drive in that late in the season?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 10, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
Thanks for the hockey game info Jeb. 

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on September 11, 2012, 10:51:57 AM
With luck, someone on this site might have better recollections of the overpass in the late sixties.  In the late seventies, we took the bus to go watch a London Knight's games.  This was not by choice...but rather because of an unreliable car.  The bus stopped near Exeter Road and we walked the rest of the way - over the overpass.  There was a sidewalk - and there was a sidewalk on both sides of the overpass (ie. north and southbound) ...but "once was enough".  I am surprised, looking at a map and marking out the distance.  It seemed a lot further...more like an act of desperation.   Also - despite the sidewalk, you still had to navigate cars as they came on and off the overpass (ie. the sidewalk was discontinuous).  Those particular spots were well lit - preferentially so.   Not sure this sums it up...but...the overall experience was not a pedestrian-friendly one (it was winter of course).   If anything was different back in the sixties...my guess is that it was even worse.   We did it once - but never considered doing it again (not for reasons of personal-safety since we were 18 year olds...and more of a danger to society than vice versa).   One has to admire the determination of a young person to commit to a job where you had to take the bus from near London's core - out to the edge of town - and then face a hike over the 401.  A fifteen year old today would never have the courage! It would be particularly daunting if you had reasons to doubt your personal safety.  Where does on go if on an overpass?  Options are limited.   It is sad to think that even after Jacqueline asked to see if someone could give her a lift, that no one stepped forward.  Particularly sad if some of her co-workers were heading back to London anyways.  They probably drove right past her.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 11, 2012, 11:12:12 AM
This is what's been annoying me for a while. She went back to - I assume - give one last try to get a ride home. IF she was a regular hitchhiker as the paper seems to want to make her out to be, she must have asked a few people for a ride home or at least to the bus stop. If it was such a "store policy" to make sure females had rides then why didn't a manager drop her at the bus? Who did she speak to for a ride or were they always too ashamed to admit they said no? How many other co workers saw her walking?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 16, 2012, 02:40:29 PM
One other comment about the suspect cars.  Just to simplify things, if we separate Jackie's case from Betty Harrison's case, we have a final word from LE about the car Jackie entered. (reply#52) LFP, Oct.28/69) as follows:

LE announced for the first time, that they were looking for a specific car--a light to medium blue Ford product, 3-4 years old.  Two witnesses claim seeing this similar car, with one seeing damage to the right rear fender, and the other seeing Jackie enter the back seat.

During GF/BH trial, on Dec. 9/70, we learn that GF owned a blue Ford, which had a damaged rear fender. (per J. McVey, reply #120)  Regardless if this was the car involved in B. Harrison's attack, it certainly is very similar to the one involved in Jackie's murder.

We also have a Hyde Park garage operator who called LE at the end of GF's trial, after the testimony from J. McVey, with info regarding Jackie's case.  Because it had to do with Jackie and not Betty H., the judge would not allow the case to be reopened to hear his testimony.  We guessed that he had info that contradicted the Fryer's alibi for Oct. 4th.  Is it also possible that he had info on the fender damage to GF's car and put two and two together after hearing McVey's testimony?

Re--where this car was parked:  There are numerous LFP articles which mention that the car was seen "near" or "on" Wellington Rd. NEAR the 401 overpass.  Not once was it described as being ON the overpass.  If it is a fact that the car wasn't on the overpass, it may make a significant difference as to the degree of lighting.  Still unanswered is whether Jackie got into the car north or south of the overpass, or if it was in the east or west lane.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on September 18, 2012, 11:16:32 AM
Thanks HF for the effort in finding the specific details on this.  We have all jumped to the conclusion about where she was picked up (ie. on the overpass), but as you point out it could be prior to, or past the actual part that sits overtop of the 401.  All of the points you raise are interesting.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 18, 2012, 09:27:06 PM
With Jackie only being 15, would there have been a truant officer looking into why she wasn't in school? Who would have been making the schedule at work and why wouldn't they raise questions as to why this school aged girl was not in school?

Thanks for clearing up the overpass issue HF. I would think if she was walking to the bus stop it would have been on the east side as that's where the stop would have been heading downtown.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 21, 2012, 02:24:42 PM
Please take a moment to sign our petition to the OPP. It's a plea to add all unsolved murder cases in the OPP jurisdiction to their website. Thank you and please share with your friends.

http://www.change.org/petitions/opp-the-opp-website-needs-to-include-all-unsolved-opp-murder-cases# (http://www.change.org/petitions/opp-the-opp-website-needs-to-include-all-unsolved-opp-murder-cases#)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on September 21, 2012, 02:35:22 PM
Done, but I stayed anonymous....;)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on September 23, 2012, 06:31:31 PM
Thanks for posting the link (and starting the petition) Chickapey! 

I've signed it. These families deserve resolution to these cases.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 23, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
There is also a peaceful demonstration on 13 October at OPP. The petition will be handed to opp and I see there will be a little gathering with an description of some of the victims on our boards here. It looks like everyone is welcome
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on September 27, 2012, 08:08:43 AM
Yesterday evening, I was watching the History channel and a program about solving the mystery of Jack the Ripper came on.  An envelope containing a letter sent to the London police in 1888 was tested for DNA traces.  There had been a number of letters sent to the police at that time but this one described what the killer planned to do to the next victim and a few days later unfortunately it happened as predicted.   So police believed that this particular letter was really sent by the killer and not some crank.   The investigators had bones from a person of interest who is not usually named as a possible suspect.  They hoped to get a DNA match from saliva on the stamp.  The lab did get a sample of DNA but to everyone's astonishment, the DNA was from a woman!  So the mystery deepens on who licked the stamp - maybe a postal worker or a secretary or a suspect or wife ?

But the really interesting part is that a lab could test evidence that old and find a viable sample to get a DNA profile.
So that opens more possibilities for solving more recent cold cases.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on September 27, 2012, 08:11:40 AM
Is the gathering on Oct.13th open to interested people?
If so, what time is it ?
- and exactly where ?

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 27, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Hi Elsie... It's open to all and it's at 7 pm at OPP. It's on Exeter Rd and there is parking in the area with the hotels etc nearby
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 29, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
Sorry Elsie...it's Friday the 12th october... not 13th! My mistake
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 02, 2012, 05:49:37 PM
This Thursday will be the 43rd anniversary of Jackie's disappearance. As last year, I intend to honour her by making the journey across the Wellington overpass she had planned to take. If, as one theory goes, events exist simultaneously, then perhaps, in some small way, across time, Jackie will be less alone.

Anyone else interested from the board is welcome to join me... I'd be starting from the McDonald's parking lot about 10.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on October 02, 2012, 07:29:32 PM
Count me in rkay.  43 years.  Unbelievable that Jackie's murder hasn't been solved yet.
 :'(
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 02, 2012, 08:15:44 PM
I will be there & would be very pleased for anyone to join us in our walk of remembrance for Jackie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Matty_46 on October 02, 2012, 10:11:14 PM
Count me in, I'll be there
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 03, 2012, 07:05:33 AM
The thoughts and prayers of many people in London, and elsewhere, are with Jesa and Jeb.  Wish there was more that we could do...and many wish they could join you for the "walk with Jacqueline".   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 03, 2012, 03:25:51 PM
Fantastic to hear Matty!! I am sure you'll be there in spirit Foggy and hopefully one year you can come with us. I owe you a Sweet Marie Candy bar if I'm not mistaken...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 03, 2012, 09:15:50 PM
And a moving story by Jane Sims for tomorrow's paper, on the London Free Press website tonight:

http://www.lfpress.com/2012/10/03/retracing-sisters-final-steps-keeps-hope-alive (http://www.lfpress.com/2012/10/03/retracing-sisters-final-steps-keeps-hope-alive)


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 04, 2012, 06:36:25 AM
Thanks for posting the link to the article by Jane Sims.  For anyone who is following this case, it is a must read.  As much as we should be thankful for Jane Sims and the LFP to write and produce the article, so too we must tip our hats to those who encouraged Jane to write the article.  Media coverage such as this reaches a broad audience.  There are many people who are now in the early fifties...and they were just elementary school kids when Jacqueline was murdered.  Many were perhaps not aware of Jacqueline's murder, nor of the other unsolved cases from the late sixties.  It is a part of London's history that they need to be aware of.  It is also possible that, as young children, they may have witnessed something - or overhead something - which could be a vital clue.  Perhaps something said by an older brother, or an uncle....who knows?   At the time, they may not have been aware of the significance.

In the late sixties, following the abduction and murder of Frankie Jensen, our school - like many others - adopted the Block Parent program after encouragement by very well-meaning people.  I have been curious about whether children that were my age at the time (7-9) were made aware of why the program was being put in place.  At the auditorium session when it was launched at our school, we were told (by our principal) that the Block Parent sign would be placed in someone's front window, and that we should go to such a house if we needed help.  Our house was one of the block parent homes in our community.  The examples of why we might need help included bullying, or if we fell and hurt ourselves.  There was no mention of serial killers or "candymen" driving about in cars attempting to lure children.  Perhaps I "missed the memo", but  I have discussed this with several classmates and although they may not remember the actual launch of the Block Parent program, they also do not remember being specifically warned about the more significant danger elements that existed at the time.   Many of us would easily have accepted a ride from a stranger if we had missed a bus, or were struggling with a heavy bundle of newspapers to deliver.   If the stranger was offering candy, rather than see this as a risk factor, we would have seen this as an even better reason to accept a ride.  (Sad!).    Since many of us were oddly not aware of the presence of serial killer, it is quite possible that we may have witnessed something (or found something), or heard something that could have been significant...but we had no way of knowing it was significant.   There is a large collective "memory bank" which needs to be accessed, and media coverage about any of the cases may help this along. 

I was taken with the observation that Jacqueline's sister made when she made the walk along the overpass last year.  Although we might reach a conclusion that Jacqueline had a choice about accepting the ride (ie. suggesting that it was a friend she knew, or someone she determined was "safe") ...it is also possible, as noted by Jacqueline's sister in the LFP article,  that she had no place to turn, hide, or run to.  In essence, the overpass became a trap.   There is much to be learned, particularly if we can reconstruct the scenes as they were at the time. 

Many wish that they could join the walk across the overpass tonight.  Perhaps, in time, the overpass might be closed for several minutes on October 4th as a small gesture of acknowledgement to Jacqueline (and other young people) who have suffered similar fates. Although I will not be there in person, and live in a different time-zone, my thoughts will be with those who are making this effort to remember Jacqueline by walking in her footsteps.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 04, 2012, 07:46:47 AM
What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,
In years that bring the philosophic mind.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 04, 2012, 08:28:35 AM
rkay: thank you for linking the article from today's LFPress.  I thought I would copy it, in order to retain it on Unsolved.  In the future the LFP  will likely transfer it to archives, which will be unavailable to us. Unfortunately, the photos do not copy.

I'm sure all members will appreciate LFP reporter Jane Sims, and kudos to Jackie's sister Anne, for providing such an intelligent, dignified and compassionate interview. 





Anne English-Cremers recalls her 15-year-old sister Jacqueline as a good-hearted girl who stepped up to help her family financially. (JANE SIMS The London Free Press)


There’s much more traffic driving over the Wellington Rd. bridge that spans Canada’s busiest highway than there was on a tragic October night 43 years ago.

Fifteen-year-old Jacqueline English had to walk across the overpass to get to the bus stop from the Met store in the Treasure Island Mall where she worked in the cafeteria. Back then, the mall was in Westminster Township and the city buses didn’t run there.

On Oct. 4, 1969, at about 10 p.m. English started for home — and never made it. She was last seen getting into a car.

Her nude body was found five days later in Otter Creek near Tillsonburg.

English became part of a tragic string of unsolved killings of young people in the London area in the late ’60s and early ’70s.

Last year, English’s sister, Anne English-Cremers, 59, of London decided to make that walk over the bridge herself in memory of a sister who never had a chance to reach adulthood.

Halfway across the bridge, she had a sad epiphany. “That was the first time it clued in to me (that) she had no escape.

“There was nowhere for her to go when that car stopped but to get in. I just thought that would be horrible, what would you do short of jumping off the bridge?”

On Thursday at 10 p.m., ­English-Cremers and some friends committed to bringing closure to English’s unsolved murder will gather at the McDonald’s on the south side of the bridge and make the teen’s final walk together.

Their purpose is to keep hope alive that someday English’s murder will be solved.

“I think this is solvable, I really do,” English-Cremers said.

She’s found new support in the past year from a group formed on the website unsolvedcanada.ca that is dedicated to digging into the case and looking for new information.

English-Cremers said the group of five people has helped uncover some fresh leads. They call themselves the J.E. Crew.

The website contains newspaper clippings and commentary about the case, including grainy photos from The Free Press from the time English disappeared.

There are also reports of how one woman who came forward with information was later harassed and stabbed. A man was tried and acquitted in 1970 for the attack.

For some English family members, the loss and the many twists and turns in the case have been too much.

English-Cremers can’t explain why people have now come forward to review the evidence.

“It took 43 years to find a group of people who could stay with the story,” she said. “I am so grateful.”

While she said she has appreciated all the help from the police over the decades since her sister’s death, English-Cremers wonders why English isn’t listed among the OPP’s unsolved cases.

Her younger sister by a year was a sweet, innocent girl, she said, whose family cared for her deeply.

When her mother couldn’t afford to buy her son a suit for his Grade 8 graduation, it was English who stepped up with her own money to make the purchase.

She was the good girl, ­English-Cremers said.

The night before she disappeared, two men were seen in the store talking to English.

The next day, English visited her mother in the hospital where she was recovering from minor surgery. She said she didn’t want to go to work.

Her mother, English-Cremers said, advised her she couldn’t just not show up for work and had to give proper notice if she wanted to quit.

English worked her shift and disappeared.

Her sister wonders if she would have had children, travelled, if they would have been close friends.

She thinks about all of the cases solved through the science of DNA and wishes that could happen for her sister.

And Thursday’s walk is one gentle reminder that the English case is still a sad, open file.

“I don’t want to forget her,” English-Cremers said.

jane.sims@sunmedia.ca


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on October 04, 2012, 10:00:24 AM
The group of people that have put their knowledge and thoughts together for Jacqueline's sake, amazes me.  I always read your posts, I just don't have anything to add, (I don't know London and area at all).

You all deserve a lot of credit.  Keep up your good work, I hope it solves this horrible crime.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: SAP on October 04, 2012, 10:13:21 AM
I second that. I always read here as well b/c I find this group so in-sync and going places. Kudos to you all.  :) You give hope to many in the area.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on October 04, 2012, 10:33:24 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made by jobo and SAP. Every time I come on to these threads I am impressed all over again. I don't think we could find a more dedicated and hard working bunch. It's great how helpful and polite each member of this group is with their fellow posters. Also apparent that each member respects and appreciates other's opinions.

It's a pleasure to read here. Truly inspirational.

Keep up the great work! :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 04, 2012, 12:47:48 PM
A sincere thanks to all who remembered Jackie today.  Special thanks and gratitude to rkay, chickapey, Fog and HF for all your time, effort, and hard work.

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
Were it not for distance and other commitments, I know you'd be first among us for the walk tonight, jeb.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: uninformed on October 04, 2012, 01:18:03 PM
was Glen Fryer convicted of the knife attack on Mrs. Hastings?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: uninformed on October 04, 2012, 01:23:08 PM
sorry, Mrs. Harrison I think it was.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2012, 02:22:48 PM
Uninformed, Fryer was acquitted (given the judge's comments, I would have to have to say narrowly). If you go back to page 9 of this thread, the judge's decision was published by the London Free Press, and you can read it in full there, if you're curious.


For jeb, foghorn, and others who can't see an actual copy of the article in today's paper, on page A4, here it is:


(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/Jackie-Oct-4-2012-article-J.jpg)



Jane Sims and her editor did an excellent job of getting Jackie's story out there today. Kudos to them!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2012, 02:25:47 PM
Also, that's probably the sharpest, clearest picture of Jackie I've seen so far. Most versions of this photo I've seen have been from microfiche or photocopies of old articles. Nice to see her clearly, and get a reminder of why we're all here.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 04, 2012, 02:37:08 PM
We may not always agree, JEB but believe me when I say: we are here for you too.  Your presence is valued by us all and you keep us on our toes.  I appreciate you and JESA are so willing to deal with us too.
That really is the clearest photo I've seen too. She looks so much younger than the grainier version and you're right Rkay... it is an excellent example of why we're all here.  Beautiful sisters!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on October 04, 2012, 02:42:45 PM
Terrific article, thanks for posting.  I am so grateful for the work of the contributors to these pages and can't possibly thank them enough....you give us hope.  Our thoughts are with Anne and her family as she takes Jackie's walk tonight. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 04, 2012, 05:34:08 PM
Thanks for your kind comment Chickapey.  If you could wear my shoes for a day, or jump into my head for a day, you would probably understand why we don't always agree.  (I was the closest to Jackie the last 2 years of her life.  We chummed with the same set of friends.)  For the most part this board has presented a single suspect, when in fact there are many.  I have 10 good POI's, and I would be very surprised if one of them wasn't Jackie's murderer.  So, I have a great deal of questions that need answering before I can come on the board and point the finger at anyone.  Whether we agree or not, I fully understand that we are all working towards the same goal.  (We are all looking for the same person, even though we may all be looking at different people.)  Once again though, I appreciate all the work you've had put into Jackie's case, as well as your kind comments.

Jeb     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on October 04, 2012, 06:02:09 PM
Jeb, I second Chickapey's comments.  My thoughts are with you on this very tough day.

(Hopefully) I will never know what it's like to walk in your shoes.  For you and Jesa to have lost your sister in such a terrible way, and in light of how close you were to Jackie must be so difficult.

I also think there is more than one viable suspect. 

Take care.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 04, 2012, 06:39:45 PM
Much appreciated goNgo.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on October 04, 2012, 08:16:11 PM
Excellent work in the LFP article.  Hopefully it will motivate the police to more action in the cold cases. 
My thoughts are with those who walk with Jacqueline tonight.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2012, 10:24:45 PM
Having returned from the walk tonight, I am so impressed with the number of people who chose to forsake their comfortable homes this evening on very little notice, spend time with others who might be strangers, and join the walk across the overpass-- folks from the board, friends of Jackie's and of the English family, and other caring individuals. Jeb, I wish you could've been there to see it (I know you were in spirit). One lady who was physically unable to make the voyage even showed up just to offer her support.

As Frank Jensen Sr. said, nothing's so bad that some good can't come out of it. The sense of community on Jackie's behalf that I saw tonight is certainly a positive legacy for her.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
I was overwhelmed by the people who came out this evening to honour & remember Jackie, Fred's & my sister.
We walked it as a rather large group & I noticed the eeriness of the location.
Jackie walked it alone & it was far more barren than it is today.
As rkay said...tonight's walk was not alone, but tonight Jackie walked with people who care for & remember her.
Some of the people, many in fact had never met Jackie personally & still came out to walk her walk.
With so much evil in this world of ours...there are still people who care & do want to make a difference.
To each & every walker tonight & (those there only in spirit)...YOU do make a difference & I will keep that with me for the remainder of my life.
My little sister Jackie is remembered, thought about & cared about by so many people willing to help resolve her case.
Some friends, some associates, some complete strangers & some of .the JE crew, which numbers 7 now.
Each one of you...touched me deeply by remembering Jackie tonight by walking her last steps, on her last day.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 05, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
Thanks to all who made the walk.  To the lady who showed up even though she was physically unable to make the walk, thank you.  You are all special people.  Special people walking to remember a special girl.  Thank you.  To Jackie:  It was a gift to be a part of your life for 14 years.  Thank you.  You are dearly missed. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on October 05, 2012, 12:55:46 PM
I just want to say that it was nice meeting everyone last night at the walk. If anyone ever wants to get together to discuss this case or other cases over a cup of coffee that would be great. Inbox me anytime.   :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on October 05, 2012, 02:02:49 PM
I'm so touched by all of this I don't think I can speak.  Wish I had known sooner, I would have been there.  Next year.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 16, 2012, 05:53:05 AM
I think that London should be petitioned to rename the overpass "The Jacqueline English Overpass" and create a dedicated memorial in a grassy area heading into London to remember the victims and families of the unsolved, and solved cases.   Not having lived in London for years, I had not realized the original overpass (built mid 50's) had been torn down and re-built.  Back then, the overpass spanned two lanes of traffic (and a very short on & off lane) and there was no traffic light on the approaches.  If you were walking the bridge, back then, you had to avoid cars exiting and entering the overpass...that is to say - dodge them! For example, note in picture two: a pedestrian heading south (as JE would do on the way to work) would be using the sidewalk, but then have to negotiate with the big white truck as it entered onto the overpass. 

I am attaching a couple of pictures from a site on historical bridges, and this might help our view of the overpass as it was back in the day. The first two were taken pre-demolition; the third is just a historical curiosity with the bridge span shown as it was being built.  It seems a fair bit smaller than todays.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 16, 2012, 06:37:50 AM
A couple more pics of the overpass - these taken in 2008 before demolition.  The first shows the NE quadrant of the bridge (this would be the side along with JE was walking, and is the part of the bridge as it descends into London.  The second is an aerial view, taken in 2008, facing south - therefore towards what was the rink and other buildings on south side of bridge. It may be particularly useful because it shows the various exits and entrances to the bridge and pre-bridge.
The third is just another pic to show the length of span.  This was also taken just prior to demo.

Question:  Could someone comment on the exact location of the Treasure Island Gardens (perhaps picking out a landmark on the aerial view...picture #2, or reference point on a modern day map).  I was looking back at the LFP map on reply #80 to get my bearings, but still a bit unsure. Perhaps it would be in the site currently occupied by small "red" building which I think is a McD? towards the centre-top of the aerial map?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 16, 2012, 08:53:34 AM
Treasure Island is that hot ghetto mess of a building that looks like an open book just on the upper part of the photo by the bright green field. The red is the McDonalds which used to be part of the mall itself until fairly recently when it moved to that little red building you mentioned
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 16, 2012, 08:56:48 AM
it also looks like the new bridge is slightly east of the old one but the incline is definitely shorter on the old one. Narrow sidewalk too... wow.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 16, 2012, 09:15:45 AM
Thanks Chick,

So - the parking lot through which Jacqueline walked, prior to reaching the road iteself, was a fairly large one? (running from T.I. building through to about where the McD building is?).

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on October 16, 2012, 09:23:16 AM
Hi Fog:

I'm not 100% sure, since I haven't lived in London in 30 years.  But as you come south off of the 401 overpass, the first road on the left is Wliton Grove.  If you turn left onto Wilton Grove, the parking lot immediately to your right is the Treasure Island Gardens parking lot.  On the south side of the parking lot there are several black buildings.  (Black in the photo, anyway.)  The left hand-side of the building on the right, housed the Met in 1969.  Not sure what was in the right-hand side.  (In 1963, it was the Busy Bee Grocery Store.)  The building on the far left hand-side of that parking lot, was the actual Treasure Island Gardens (the arena.)  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 16, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
Thanks Jeb,

The few times I drove to the arena, the parking was so chaotic that I never got my bearings as to what other buildings were adjacent...and who shared the parking area.  As you point out, the Wilton Grove access road seemed to be the route that funnelled everyone into that parking zone.   The one time that I walked over the overpass, from Exeter Road, to the arena, I have a better recollection of where the buildings (relative than the arena were) - and from what you have described, I think I am finally getting it straight.  Thanks for the information!  It is helpful also to know where the Busy Bee grocery store was in relation to other buildings.

When Jacqueline was leaving the Met, and heading to Wellington Road, would she (and other walkers) have taken the same route as the cars (ie. walk to Wilton Grove Road and follow it out to Wellington), or - to save time - would she have traversed the parking lot itself (heading in a northwest direction...away from the Wilton Grove egress) and then hiked across what might have been a grassy (or at least unpaved) section separating the west side of the parking lot from Wellington Road?   The latter seems like a more direct route - would save a bit of time.  I am making the assumption that the only route into & out of the parking lot was via Wilton Grove Road (which may be faulty assumption).  It seems that she had a fair distance to walk, and not much time to catch the bus, particularly if she headed back at least once to try to see if someone could give her a lift...so thinking about what shortcut might have worked to her benefit to save a few minutes.

I am pretty sure that the time we walked to the Arena, we did not follow Wilton Grove Road in, but instead probably cut across from Wellington directly into the parking lot.

If someone had been waiting for her in the parking lot, she may have avoided (intentionally or inadvertantly) their detection by heading northwest directly to Wellington Road.  The person(s) waiting might have decided by 10:15 that she had somehow slipped by...and then they exited along with other cars via Wilton Grove Road and caught up with her on the overpass.  Of course this makes many assumptions.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 16, 2012, 11:40:23 AM
I would think if one was leaving the "mall" where the Met was, it would be more likely to cut across the parking lot heading right for the lights at Wilton Grove Rd and Wellington, not follow the roadway. It would be faster and if she was trying to avoid people in a car, it would be easier to go that way too. If the car was in the parking lot, it would have to exit along with everyone else driving out after the store closed.

I wonder how well the interviewed the other people working that night. I wonder if they noticed which way she went?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 16, 2012, 12:48:28 PM
Great finds on the pics, Fog! I was looking last night but had zero luck.

Fog, you're probably right that the long diagonal cross of the parking lot for Jackie would make sense, to save her time. That would also give anyone waiting in the parking lot ample opportunity to mark her as she crossed, pull out of the lot and meet her on the bridge.

When I'm back from my Northern Ontario 'exile' I should be able to dig into the Weldon and London Room Archives to get some solid on-the-ground photos of the mall and area from the time period (assuming there are some, which I do), which should help.

Now, would the whole mall have closed by 10 pm, thereby many employees be departing the area at the same time? As well, less customer vehicles in the parking lot?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 16, 2012, 01:11:24 PM
Briefly interrupting the current topic, just wanted to point out there was another Jackie-related piece in the London Free Press this past weekend. I'm not home to add an actual scan, but the October 13th "Reader To Reader" section published the letter Anne sent which inspired Jane Sims' article from the previous week:

http://www.lfpress.com/2012/10/14/reader-to-reader-oct-13 (http://www.lfpress.com/2012/10/14/reader-to-reader-oct-13)


Here's the text lifted from the LFP site:



Jackie English's case among the unsolved

Forty-three years ago, on Oct. 4, 1969, about 10:15 p. m, my sister Jacquelyn English left her job at a department store coffee shop, and walked northward across the Wellington overpass at the 401, to catch the last bus home for the night. Nearly halfway over, she was seen getting into a dark-coloured sedan. Five days later, her body was found floating in a creek near Otterville. She had been sexually assaulted and murdered. She was15 years old.

By a strange turn of events, in the following weeks, a witness came forward. A 43-year-old receptionist, Betty Harrison, claimed she witnessed two men speaking to a disturbed Jackie at her work the night before she disappeared. Mrs. Harrison herself was harassed, then later attacked and stabbed by a man who warned her off from speaking to police. A suspect was brought to trial in that case, but was acquitted in 1970.

In the years since then, neither the London Police nor the OPP have made any arrests, let alone brought the perpetrator(s) to justice. My sister's case remains unsolved, unfortunately; one of several unsolved murders of children and young women in the London area between 1968-70.

My hope remains undiminished that Jackie's case, and the others from London, can and will be solved. We have all heard about cold cases across North America being cracked by advances in forensic science, or someone coming forward with new information they previously chose not to share. Hopefully, the police will take a renewed interest in these cases before time runs out and memories or evidence are lost for good. There is still a chance for justice.

In the meantime, my family and I have been working with other interested individuals on the London page of the Unsolved Canada website ( www.unsolvedcanada.ca),bringing to light information and keeping the cases available to the public eye. It's one way to keep Jackie alive, even in a small way. We encourage anyone with an interest or information to contribute.

Anne English-Cremers

London



Pleased to see the LFP continued their coverage in some form, even beyond the point of the anniversary. Good to keep the story out there.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on October 16, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
Great photos Foghorn.  Thanks for posting those.

And thanks to Jeb to for clarifying the location of the important sites.  If I understand you correctly, the "Gardens" (subsequently called the Ice House, and now a velodrome) is the portion of the building to the extreme left in the photo, and at an angle to most of the rest of the building.  The Met was somewhat in the middle of the building and Busy Bee was further to the right?  Is that correct?  Does anyone know what else was in the plaza?  Was the old gas bar there toward the back of the lot along Wellington? 

I presume that the traffic was quite sporadic in that area once the retail establishments closed for the night and if there was no activity at the Gardens that particular night.  I can only imagine that the lighting on the overpass wasn't as significant as it is now.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 18, 2012, 07:46:22 AM
Hi GNG,

I think that the layout of the buildings that you have described fits with what JEB detailed.  Not sure on traffic flow, but it would seem likely that there would be some very busy times (end of hockey game, or end of concert), and also near closing times for the stores.  Wonder if the Busy Bee & Met closed @ 10?  If staff were leaving @10, it seems reasonable to think that the store might have closed a bit earlier...so that customers making purchases near closing time (perhaps 9:30) would be safely out the door before staff were leaving. 

Also, was wondering, if anyone reading this might have worked at the Met...did the employees leave the store @ the front entrance, as might a customer?  Alternatively, did staff have a dedicated parking area (perhaps not close to front door) and did the staff enter/leave via a different entrance/exit?   Many of the malls (thinking of WhiteOaks) were built so that staff would leave stores via service entrances...this allowed the main (front) doors to be locked at closing time (keeping late arriving customers out)..while still allowing staff who might be working late to leave the building via a door that would lock behind them. 



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 18, 2012, 10:58:19 AM
I know of someone's mother who worked there at the time. She has been away but is back now so I'll get some questions ready for her
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 18, 2012, 02:47:08 PM
Also, it seems there would likely still be a movie playing at 401 drive in (they apparently stopped Thanksgiving weekend for the season)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: foghorn on October 19, 2012, 11:04:04 AM
Found an odd, but helpful, note about the Busy Bee discount grocery store adjacent to the Met.

1. it opened in 1961 and was still there into the 1980's
2. the store opened "just outside of London" and therefore not subject to London's closing time laws during that era (not sure what they were...but..)
3. the store was open 12 hour each day, and closed @ 10 PM
4. was the subject of odd quip by visiting hockey coach...saying that not only could you pick up two points when visiting London (ie. Knights must have been easy-pickings at that time), but you could also pick up groceries after the game.

So - probably just adds a confirmatory note that the Met, alongside of it, was probably also fully open till 10 - and perhaps was strategically located @ Treasure Island to allow it to be open till 10. Traffic out of mall would be expected to be busy....shoppers and staff...
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on November 13, 2012, 11:20:20 AM
Full credit to chickapey for sourcing out this awesome postcard image of the Met store at Treasure Island Mall:



(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/xtra/TheMetstoreatTreasureIslandMallpostcard.jpg)



Nice find, chick. Thanks!


Can anyone speak to where the coffee shop was in relation to what we're seeing here, or if Jackie would have exited by any of these doors?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 13, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
Full thanks to Rod for posting it seeing as I can't figure it out! HA

I wonder why the MET letters also appear above the arena sign? 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on November 13, 2012, 04:16:28 PM
Straight through the front doors (perhaps a few feet east) & to the back of the store. I think there were 3 bays in an elongated U shape with stools for the customers. Of course there was storage behind the entire length of the store & delivery doors which supplied the kitchen. I think the girls picked up their orders from a window looking into the kitchen. The front door was the only entrance...other than possibly a fire escape or access from the delivery side of the building.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 14, 2012, 06:06:54 PM
What about the Windjammer nightclub? Someone on the London facebook site was saying there was a club there that had live acts too ... kind of a night club place. I'd think that would be open at that time of night too?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on November 14, 2012, 10:13:11 PM
Hi Chick...I also worked at the Met, before & after Jackie's employment there. There was NO "Windjammer" from 67- late 70's. No bars, no clubs! Interesting but must have come far later in time, if at all, at that location.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 15, 2012, 07:04:14 AM
The person that said this said it was early to mid 60s so it was likely gone by then. Just an idea.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 15, 2012, 06:33:55 PM
I'm curious how board members interpret the following facts from the LFP article dated December 15, 1970.

1.  "Mrs M said police talked to her Dec 20, 1969, in connection with the Jacqueline English investigation.  She told police she was at the Metropolitan store Oct 4, 1969, and that there were 4 or 5 men at the counter.  She didn't describe any of them, she said."

2.  "That night Jacqueline English "was upset and she didn't appear to see anybody," Mrs M said."

3.  "MM, 18, Mrs M's son, said he knew Jacqueline English and said "hello" to her the night of Oct 4 at the Metropolitan store.  She said "hello" too, he said.  He was interviewed by police about Dec 9, 1969, and they were asking about the night of Oct 4, 1969, at the store, he said.  The youth agreed with the defence counsel he told police some things that were not true.  He said he had given a description of two men to the police .  The men were not sitting at the bay where the English girl was working, he said.  Asked why he gave a description of those two men, the youth said:  "I didn't want to get mixed up in this."



     

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 15, 2012, 11:50:22 PM
Hi Jeb,

I've outlined my interpretations of the noted facts:

1.  To me, it is obvious that the police did not ask Mrs. M to describe the men at the food counter in their Dec. 20/69 interview.  I am certain that they would have shown her the composite sketch, relating to the night before, and asked if she had noticed that man.  Since Mrs. M. did provide a description of the clothes worn by one of the men, when asked at the trial, I think she would have done the same, if asked, back in Dec/69.


2.  Jackie "was upset and she didn't appear to see anybody".  To me, this comment falls in line with Jackie's co-waitress' comment that Jackie "wasn't herself at all"...that she was upset from the time she first got to work...and she hardly spoke to the other waitresses nor smiled at customers.  In other words, Jackie was so worried about something, that she was noticeably preoccupied and distracted.

3.  "I didn't want to get mixed up in this".  This is such a loaded statement, and "speculating" on what Mike meant may be better left to private conversations.  A simple explanation may be that Mike (who was an unsavoury character) really didn't want to get involved in more trouble than he may have already been in.  Of course this attitude would denote a cold, callous person who had no interest in helping out in a family friend's murder investigation. 

HF

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Chris on November 15, 2012, 11:52:31 PM
Quote
"I didn't want to get mixed up in this."

When he gave this statement, did he know that something bad had happened yet?

Quote
To me, this comment falls in line with Jackie's co-waitress' comment that Jackie "wasn't herself at all"...that she was upset from the time she first got to work...and she hardly spoke to the other waitresses nor smiled at customers.  In other words, Jackie was so worried about something, that she was noticeably preoccupied and distracted.

But no one knows why she was bahving this way correct?

Have Faith... do you believe this can be sovled even if the killer is dead?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 16, 2012, 04:14:33 PM
1.  "Mrs M said police talked to her Dec 20, 1969, in connection with the Jacqueline English investigation.  She told police she was at the Metropolitan store Oct 4, 1969, and that there were 4 or 5 men at the counter.  She didn't describe any of them, she said."

I wonder if they asked her for specific descriptions or just asked if she remembered how many people were there. Just a general question....

2.  "That night Jacqueline English "was upset and she didn't appear to see anybody," Mrs M said."

This seems to go along with what was the general feeling ... from Jackie's mother to her co workers. Not appearing to see anybody sounds to me like she was almost despondent and I'd wonder if her boss would have seen this too and said something to her. I wonder how well Mrs M knew Jackie? Did she know her well enough to pull her aside and ask "is something bothering you dear" Was she the type?


3.  "MM, 18, Mrs M's son, said he knew Jacqueline English and said "hello" to her the night of Oct 4 at the Metropolitan store.  She said "hello" too, he said.  He was interviewed by police about Dec 9, 1969, and they were asking about the night of Oct 4, 1969, at the store, he said.  The youth agreed with the defence counsel he told police some things that were not true.  He said he had given a description of two men to the police .  The men were not sitting at the bay where the English girl was working, he said.  Asked why he gave a description of those two men, the youth said:  "I didn't want to get mixed up in this."


He troubles me in this. If he knew her, he'd know what kind of person she was and if he was a good person, would want to help and tell the truth instead of making things up? I wonder if he knew them too or knew of them


I should clarify... I don't think Michael Magee had anything to do with it. I just think he was someone who didn't like cops.  Teenagers tend not to and especially back then. He strikes me as one of those apathetic meatheads.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 16, 2012, 08:11:57 PM
Hi Chris,

quote Chris:
"When he gave this statement, did he know that something bad had happened yet?"

He gave this statement in court in the Harrison/Fryer trial in Dec./70.  But it is in reference to an interview with LE from Dec./69.  He obviously would know that Jackie was murdered (Oct) but he wouldn't have any logical reason to lie about his descriptions of the men at her food counter the night she disappeared.  Mrs. H. wasn't attacked until Dec. 11/69.

 

Yes I do think this case can be solved even if the killer is dead.  For one thing, we know that someone else, besides the killer, knows who did it.  In Jackie's case, it seems that two people could have been involved.  That increases the chances of a person coming forward one day. The advancement in forensic technology, and especially in DNA analyses is a huge component in solving historical cases.  A dedicated effort by police forces is crucial, as seen in the recent BC RCMP success with some of the Highway of Tears cases.  Unfortunately, we haven't seen this kind of effort with the historical, unsolved London cases, but I try to have faith that this could change.  Whether Jackie's case is linked to one of the two serial killers active in London in the late 1960's and early 1970's is unknown.  One investigative report suggested it was. If so, solving one case could solve several others at the same time.  I would think that this alone would be a noble and rewarding accomplishment for any police force. 



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on November 16, 2012, 11:30:08 PM
Thanks to those who answered.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 18, 2012, 12:41:41 PM
What was or is your take on the quotes, Jeb?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 21, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
ok well ANYWAY... does anyone remember if the other mall across the street would have been closing at the same time? Did Jackie know anyone that worked there?I think it was a Towers and Food City
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: SAP on November 21, 2012, 07:28:04 PM
Jeb:   (My answers in blue. I originally thought you were asking the members mostly posting on the thread; also it didn't make sense to me at first; had to reread a few times.)

" I'm curious how board members interpret the following facts from the LFP article dated December 15, 1970.

1.  "Mrs M said police talked to her Dec 20, 1969, in connection with the Jacqueline English investigation.  She told police she was at the Metropolitan store Oct 4, 1969, and that there were 4 or 5 men at the counter.  She didn't describe any of them, she said."

As someone else mentioned, I would also think that she wasn't asked to give a description; also perhaps she didn't think the men were out of the ordinary and she didn't mention them to the police at the time.

2.  "That night Jacqueline English "was upset and she didn't appear to see anybody," Mrs M said."


How would Mrs. M know? Did she mention the men to JE and JE said she didn't notice anyone? If Mrs. M noticed the men enough to inquire what JE said or thought, there had to be some reason she asked ... what about these men caught her attention? And if they caught her attention so much, why didn't she pursue this farther with police and give descriptions?

3.  "MM, 18, Mrs M's son, said he knew Jacqueline English and said "hello" to her the night of Oct 4 at the Metropolitan store.  She said "hello" too, he said.  He was interviewed by police about Dec 9, 1969, and they were asking about the night of Oct 4, 1969, at the store, he said.  The youth agreed with the defence counsel he told police some things that were not true.  He said he had given a description of two men to the police .  The men were not sitting at the bay where the English girl was working, he said.  Asked why he gave a description of those two men, the youth said:  "I didn't want to get mixed up in this."

Strange and perhaps a red flag. I am thinking he gave a description of the wrong men on purpose. I am wondering if he saw the other men that Mrs. M also saw and didn't give the description of them b/c he was afraid of repercussions? If so then he must have known something of or about those men that could cause him problems.
 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 23, 2012, 12:01:45 PM
SAP---good to see you making the effort to respond here.  Good observations.  I realize that this case is very complex and the length of the thread is a bit daunting.  It is always helpful to have other members' input, and not just the "regulars" on here.  :-)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on November 24, 2012, 08:13:52 AM
with Mike being considered troubled, would he also have been at CPRI at some point for either testing or help or living there?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: SAP on November 24, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
SAP---good to see you making the effort to respond here.  Good observations.  I realize that this case is very complex and the length of the thread is a bit daunting.  It is always helpful to have other members' input, and not just the "regulars" on here.  :-)

Have Faith, I am at a disadvantage geographically since I am from the west. So I don't often reply although I do read all the postings. I have gone back to the beginning of this thread and trying to absorb more history and what is interesting is other cases mentioned that are similar. I will keep reading as time permits.
No one should have to die violently at the hands of others and especially not our future leaders ... all the young people who have been given a death sentence by those without conscience.
My opinions and answers to the above questions were without reading a full transcript.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on December 19, 2012, 11:31:21 AM
Hi Tim Brook:

I was reading through the posts on Jackie's site, came across yours (August 12, 2011) and realized I hadn't answered it.  It must have been awful for you and your mother to leave London and move to Kingston.  Even worse, you were probably living in Kingston at the time 14 inmates escaped from the Millhaven Pen.  So, to have lived in London during the time an escaped convict (from Burwash) ran around London with his buddies (September and October of 1969), and then to have lived in Kingston when 14 escapees ran around Kingston (including the Burwash escapee) must have been horrific.  I hope things have been better for you and your mom in Queensland.  Thanks for sharing your info with regards to your mother working with Jackie at the Latin Quarter.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on December 20, 2012, 09:45:36 PM
Hi Charity Grace. 

We lived on Euclid Ave until February or March of 69, then moved to Elmwood Ave.  We lived on Elmwood Ave until about the first week of September 69, then moved to Kent St.  Although we weren't living on Euclid Ave in September or October of 69 (when an escaped convict was chased through the neighborhood by police), Jackie and I still chummed with our friends from that neighborhood.  I know the escapee's girlfriend had lived a couple of doors down from us, so maybe that's why he was in the area that night.  Just an interesting fact.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on December 21, 2012, 10:02:23 AM
Hi Jeb.  Thanks for your response and yes this feels better.  I was feeling a little odd on JD's feed.  I also would like to ask you about something that sticks in my mind regarding the apartment on Elmwood.  I believe I read on one of the feeds and correct me if I'm wrong but was there not one apartment that was rented by someone who was a POI?  No one seemed to know a whole lot of this person and there was a question of if he even really lived there or just went there to hang out.  Would you be willing to share any knowledge you have of this or am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on December 23, 2012, 08:20:02 PM
Hi Charity Grace:

I'm not sure what you're referring to.  Sounds like something the Crew might have discussed.  Have Faith might be able to share any info she might have.  Have a Merry Christmas and a great New Year. 

Jeb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on December 23, 2012, 08:25:17 PM
Thanks to all who remembered Jackie this year.  Special thanks to rkay, Chicapey, HF and Foghorn.

Sincerely,

Jeb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on December 23, 2012, 11:33:59 PM
"Thanks to all who remembered Jackie this year.  Special thanks to rkay, Chicapey, HF and Foghorn.

Sincerely,

Jeb"


Thank you Jeb for expressing this.  We will always remember Jackie.  And we will continue to search for the truth, and answers.

Sincerely,

HF


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on December 28, 2012, 10:48:01 AM
Thanks Jeb.  I hope you had an awesome Christmas and will have the best of New Years. 

I went back through Jackie's feed and found the information I based my question to you on.  It was on reply #205.

I would still value your opinion if you are up to it.

Also since I started following this feed, pretty well from the beginning I have often wondered if RH was the second person in the car.  I have also felt and have to agree with Topham that BH was hiding something.  Could this have been it?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on January 03, 2013, 06:23:54 PM
A Happy New Year to jeb, Jesa, Have Faith, chickapey, foghorn, goNgo, and everyone else interested and/or contributing to this thread (and the others). Hopefully this will be a year of answers.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on March 07, 2013, 11:07:58 AM
A while back someone was asking for the names of any teachers people knew of that worked at CPRI.  I believe they were trying to jog their memory.  While looking through the news articles for a second time I started making a list of anyone who worked for CPRI.  Here is the list Dr. Benjamin Goldberg-Superintendent, Jack James McVey teacher/former teacher then taught at Thames S S, Joseph Murphy-vice principal, Mrs Laura Jane Charlton-former teacher,  Miss Doris Diane Terry-former teacher, Miss Doreen Florence Cox-liason department member, Miss Myrna Dorothy Eamer-former teacher, Mrs Margaret Collens-former secretary, Mrs June Tabone-office manager & Mrs Barbara Joan Marshall-part time secretary.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chelsea.guy on March 17, 2013, 08:30:59 PM
Hi all so I'm the new guy to all this.i two grew up on elmwood during that time.funny how some people forget there was a biker gang that lived right on the corner of elmwood and cathcart.also is it not possible that both Jackie's were killed by the same people/person?just my thoughts seems like the link as gone cold.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on March 17, 2013, 09:23:00 PM
Welcome chelsea.guy. You can rest assured that the link has not ignored the possibility that both Jacquelines were murdered by the same person or that they are not actively engaged in finding the killer. The link has not grown cold.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chelsea.guy on March 18, 2013, 06:19:04 AM
ok great.so can anyone anwser this?did the two jackies know each other?lets not forget london was a lot smaller then.so if anyone know please anwser.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 18, 2013, 07:00:56 AM
I don't know for sure but my guess is no. Byron had recently become part of London but the kids tended to stick together.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 18, 2013, 10:03:57 PM
Hi factsfirst:

I am the brother of Jacqueline English.  For the last 15 years I have been digging up facts on Jackie's case.  However, I totally disagree with confidential (legal) facts, being made public.  When a witness makes a statement to the police he or she should be able to feel confident that his name and statement will not be made public.  He should not have to worry that his words will be found in a dumpster, basement, or at somebody's garage sale, at anytime.  But I guess I'm getting way off track here.  This forum is an excellent example of both sides of the argument.  Some people keep their sources absolutely confidential, while others, not so much.  In my opinion, the police giving confidential (legal) facts to the public would be equivalent to the site administrator here, deciding to publish everyone's name and address.  I hope you can see my point.

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on March 19, 2013, 04:37:18 AM
Well said Jeb, just a little frustration on my part bubbling to the surface.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: leonagleant on March 31, 2013, 01:11:44 AM
I wonder how many women hitchhikers have been killed in Canada? There are many on this site, particularly back in the day when women risked hitch-hiking alone. I used to do it myself a few times. My grandmother claimed to have hitch-hiked back in the 1920s an 30s and she had a close call. I'm sorry your sister and all these young women lost their lives in doing something that we thought we could do back then. In hindsight, I realize now I was very foolish.

Jeb, this may seem like a strange question, but as someone who lost a sister so horribly, do you see her murder as an issue of violence against women, or a gender neutral issue? I'm asking because people don't want to talk about violence against women these days as much, they just want to say stop violence against everyone instead.  How can people feel good about living in a civilized country with all these dead women's bodies discarded off the sides of roads or some never found over the years?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 19, 2013, 07:42:04 PM
Jackie's birthday recently passed. The thread has been quiet but I thought it needed mentioning. Happy Birthday, Jackie... you are never going to be forgotten
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 18, 2013, 07:59:40 PM
Was there ever a list of possible suspects the police spoke to or interviewed ? I just wonder if they questioned everyone Jackie knew or was friends with such as male coworkers, male friends, friend's boyfriends etc.

I have been thinking about this and wondered if in that day they would have gone easier on younger kids especially after the London Police had come under some heat for keeping the three boys who found Jackie Dunleavy for so long. Could they have missed something that way?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Amigagirl on June 13, 2013, 08:03:25 AM
Hello, I am new here and I really wish that I could offer something to all these unsolved cases in London but I was not even born yet when these young lives were unfortunately taken so cruelly. I have spent a lot of time reading through every thread relating to London and this particular case of Jacqueline English is the longest and the strangest really.
I just wanted to make a few comments on some things that popped into my head as I read through the info. ost of it however relates to the trial of Glen Fryer and Mrs. Harrison...
1. The first thing that screamed at me was that regardless of anything, there was obviously someone in the police force that was friends with or knew the person responsible for threatening Mrs. Harrison. If she reported her info to the police and shortly after started to receive threats, there was a snitch somewhere there to leak the information.
2. I find it crazy that someone who reports info regarding a case where murder was involved would play a game with the suspected person by mailing a threat to them! If it were me, I'd be frightened, not remotely interested In toying with that person!
3. I know it's a different time now, but I can't believe that a wife would be able to testify on her husband's whereabouts and it would be taken as truth. glen fryer's wife testified that she was in the hospital (I forget exactly the wording) because she needed a BREAK or something??? Clearly she had issues and just from reading the info presented, it's obvious that she was not a strong minded woman and was protecting her family. He was acquitted based on her testimony which was weak at best.
4. Finally, and this is just an observation....it's hard to believe that back then, the news released the EXACT address of people involved in cases like this! mrs. Harrison was a victim of a horrible crime and everyone in London who read the paper was able to know exactly where she lived. That blows my mind.

Also, I know that members of Jacqueline's family believes in the innocence of GlenFryer but from an outsiders perspective, wow, he certainly raises some red flags for me while reading everything.  Does anyone know what happened to him after all these years? His children certainly might have something to say perhaps when he's dead (unless that's already happened)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on June 13, 2013, 11:02:50 AM
I'm sorry for intruding here;  I have read a bit of this thread before... a long time ago .... so I am not up on the details.  However, while reading the latest updates/comments this morning, I became interested in Amigagirl's comment... it is like it hit me to "wake up" and take notice.  well.... it is a long thread to read and I haven't got the time just now, but undoubtedly will not be happy until I do read this whole thread.

In the meantime, I hope nobody here will mind if I ask one question ... just tell me if my question doesn't apply and I will "delete" this comment ... ok?

My question is:  Is this the same  Glen Fryer?  .... but older?
To me he has the exact same chin dimple, the exact same hair line, the exact same eyes and nose ...even the same little downward "dip" on the outer of his mouth as in the first pose of the triple-pose pic.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cops-find-remains-teen-girl-missing-1999-rapist-basement-article-1.1025797
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on June 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM
aha!  I just noticed while skimming this thread, a poster "elsie" brought this up as well.  really creepy how parallel in nature this is!

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=709.390
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on June 13, 2013, 06:25:12 PM
Hi Lost,

No, this is a different Glen Fryer, an American who died in 2002.  The GF mentioned in this thread is alive but doesn't reside in London.  I think your question is valid and should remain.  I'm sure other people have wondered the same thing when they google GF.

Welcome Amigagirl--- glad to have your comments.  I agree, there is some bizarre behaviour in this case!


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on June 13, 2013, 07:50:32 PM
If I read a mystery with all the coincidences and twists and turns, I'd say - it's just a novel not real life.  However, it wasn't necessarily a snitch in the police department who shared Mrs. harrison's information - people tell friends, family and co-workers what they are doing and thinking and a friend can tell a friend and so on and a confidence can reach the wrong ears. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 13, 2013, 10:35:00 PM
Hello  Amigagirl and welcome to the thread! Glad to have you here too lostlinganer... I've seen your posts in lots of other threads so it will be nice to get your views on things.

I think, like Have Faith says... people just talked and it got to the wrong ears. Even today, people will mention things in passing about a case and you never know who overhears. I have a family member who has a partner in jail at the moment under suspicion of a crime. One of the police officers not even on the case talks to and gives his own comments to another family member and things get passed around. It happens. The whole Mrs Harrison story is so bizarre on it's own... I've always had more questions about it than answers... nothing seems very clear... for sure not her behaviour with mailing things and all that carrying on. The family dynamic seems a bit out of the ordinary... the son living at home while the daughter is across the city with the grandma...you wonder what was going on there too.

I'm still curious as to who the police considered a suspect. Were there any male co workers or someone working at the Ice House who had been bothering Jackie? If she didn't want to go to work, maybe the problem was there.  Lots of questions and very few answers.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Amigagirl on June 14, 2013, 11:37:18 AM
 Very true, people talk and I found a page on here that I must have skipped for some reason where someone states that mrs. Harrison mentioned it to someone an pd their wife talked about it. I still feel that someone knew someone in the force and might have been privy to information that they shouldn't have been. I gather from what I have read that back then the London police didn't need much education to become an officer and that they weren't trained on homicide work.....clearly as at least one killer literally got away with murder more than once during this time.

Can someone close to this case tell me if the evidence collected at that time is still around? With DNA testing available now please tell me that some of the original POI have been tested against the evidence (if its still around).

I know I am supposed to stick with facts only but going back over some of the thread again, I get the chills seeing certain photos of GF and regardless of his involvement in this case, I have seen a few comments on just how strange he was. I wish people were open to discussing him more...he just disappeared afterwards to live his life anonymously??
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on June 14, 2013, 02:42:28 PM
I must be honest... I'm am still curious about the USA Glen Fryer... because nobody told me how/why he is not the same guy.  I suppose that is info. you guys choose to keep personal (the reason he is not the same guy)

I must say, London,On. for 1 city was sure hit with a rash of horrid murders in a seeminly small time frame ... especially for that period in time.  BTW, I did come across a short article (you have to buy the complete article which was written more about Linda Shaw in "The Star")
Quote
LONDON, ONT. - Somewhere in the police files of the unsolved murders, is there a clue to Linda Shaw's killer?

[SA2 Edition]

Toronto Star - Toronto, Ont.

Author: Paula Adamick Special to The Star
Date: Apr 28, 1990
Start Page: A.3
Section: NEWS
that left me a little shocked... the fact that at least two of that area's victims had very prominent fathers.... as did the little Jessop girl ... I suppose success brings risk and envy.  Anyway, it got me more curious, so I hope I get time to read the whole thread over the weekend.

Quote
* Jacqueline Dunleavy, 16, of London disappeared Jan. 9, 1968. The daughter of a London police officer, Dunleavy's body was found in a ditch near the gates of the London Hunt Club. She died of strangulation and although pieces of her underwear were both missing and torn, police do not believe she was sexually assaulted.
* Frankie Jensen, 9, of Hazel Ave. in London, disappeared on his way to school Feb. 8, 1968. The son of a prominent London businessman, Jensen's body was found April 12, 1968 in the Thames River, near Thorndale, north-east of London. He had been sexually assaulted and died of a fractured skull.
* Scott Leishman, 16, of Thorndale disappeared March 21, 1968. His body was discovered in Port Burwell Harbor on Lake Erie south of here May 15, 1968


Very chilling to realize there was one each month for months in a row.  It would be great to have that whole article.[/b][/I]

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on June 14, 2013, 05:12:34 PM
Quote Lostlinganer:

"I must be honest... I'm am still curious about the USA Glen Fryer... because nobody told me how/why he is not the same guy.  I suppose that is info. you guys choose to keep personal (the reason he is not the same guy)."

There is no hidden reason Lost to tell you that the American GF is definitely not the GF in this case.  GF can be tracked somewhat from the 1970 trial to where he has ended up today.  Actually, he doesn't look anything like the American GF.  There is no secrecy in speaking about him, but there is reason to be a bit discreet, in that he was found not guilty in the Harrison trial, and could be innocent of killing Jackie.  Apparently he reads this site--so I am being a bit more careful about what I say about him.  The creep is listening. 

But that hasn`t affected the investigation into Jackie`s case. 

Modified to include the last sentence.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jedigal on July 21, 2013, 09:29:42 PM
Now I was Jackie's best girlfriend at the time of the murder. In fact she called me that night to see if I could join her as she met two cops as she called. There were several reasons I refused, one was I was having a pajama party at a friends house and the other reason was these two cops as Jackie called them had drugged us both in Victoria Park in London a few days before she went missing. Two friends of mine are the only reason I believe saving us both at that time. They became detectives ties too the case and were assigned to me. They never would let me read a statement and asked me to sign blind to the information written. My father refused to sign the statements. All I want is DNA tests done on these two individuals. One of them at a later date kidnapped and raped me but I am not sure how found us and convinces them to let me go and he, Rick, would leave town. The mind is a funny thing as I remember little of the details but around forty some came back. The officer's initials as I remember them are S.W.  6' 4" and as I am still only 95% sure of the second individual I will not mention. Fifteen years ago after I had contacted the R.C.M.P. the women on the phone said this was a huge story, the next day they brushed it off as  unimportant.
I would like closure for her family and her friends. The have DNA they only have to test it ans see if the detectives were just worried about being caught having an affair with Jackie. The reason people are worried too talk about this murder is they are scared for their lives. You may like to know a famous Hollywood actor has been afraid of confrontation with these truths for over 42 years. Together him and I could possibly solve the murder of Jackie English and perhaps some of the others that occurred around that time. The name I was called back then was Marilyn

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on July 22, 2013, 07:44:03 AM
Hi jedigal:

Welcome to Jackie's site.

jeb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 22, 2013, 09:05:28 AM
Welcome Jedigal... Your memories and information will be a great addition.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on July 22, 2013, 10:24:38 AM
Her mention of "these two cops as Jackie called them" makes me think of the Aylmer Police College which is quite close to the pond where Jackie's shoes were found.

Georgia Jackson's bloody coat was found on the grounds of the college.

I'd hate to think police or police trainees were involved but it might it account Jedigal's mention of police disinterest in her story.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on July 22, 2013, 10:39:28 AM
Welcome Jedigal

Interesting post! It looks as if all the primary characters have found Jackie's site. I value all info re: Jackie, as for almost 44 years, I have never forgotten her. It appears that Jackie lives on in the hearts & the minds of many. Good! Jackie should live on....a sweet innocent girl of 15, full of life & the joy of her presence.
The persons responsible for Jackie's murder have managed to keep secrets all these years. Or possibly "afraid for their lives" as you suggest. I wonder....are they clever....are they lucky.....are they smug knowing that they have outsmarted the police, the friends, & the family members? OR are they tormented by their actions? I bet the first answer. The sad thing is what little consolation...to outwit an entire community & never be acknowledged.
We have all felt the effects of life....aging, & I have wondered if someday, as someone lays on their deathbed....will they chose to remain anonymous or will they want their name remembered for being able to commit the murder of Jackie & outsmart almost every single person that loved & cared for Jackie????
Well........it seems fitting in a sense that Jackie will be remembered & loved FOREVER & that the people who killed her will remain NOTHING.
Please try to help.

corrected remember to remembered
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on July 22, 2013, 11:41:14 AM
great thoughts Jesa.. well put! 

So many people in this country keeping quiet in so many cases;  they feel nothing for the victims of murder and worse.... they only look out for themselves. ... that is, until such circumstances beset them or their loved one/s.   

As for the animals who commit such deeds, well they don't feel period... no remorse, no regret, no belief in "what goes around comes around". So we all need to remember our victims.. loved ones and friends, who fell prey to savagery and selfishness of the worst kind.  As long as we keep "remembering publically, talking about these cases .... as long as we keep digging, those animals do have to worry if or when fate comes knocking at their door and takes them down.  And in this day and age of advanced policing coupled with volunteers like us, that could be tomorrow for any or all of these animals who've alluded justice for far too long.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on July 22, 2013, 12:30:41 PM
As Jackie's brother, I'd like to make the following comment:  It's finally good to see that Jackie's thread on the "unsolved murders" board, is now going to be used as a tool to investigate Jackie's murder.  For the past 2 years a group of individuals have used this board to accuse and bash one specific individual.  If you disagreed with this group, they soon let you know your comments and investigate "WORK" weren't welcome on the thread.  Let me make it clear as Jackie's brother, that this thread does not belong to one specific group of people.  All comments are welcome and much appreciated by myself, Jackie's brother.

     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 22, 2013, 01:15:49 PM
Since jeb made the decision to not share any of his investigative work with this thread, or with any posters, or with any "group", or with any other victim's families, I have no idea what he is talking about.  if anybody has tried to scare posters away it has been him.  Low blow jeb, just saying.

Welcome to Unsolved Canada, and Jackie's thread jedigal.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 22, 2013, 01:33:50 PM
I agree HaveFaith. RKay has made incredible amounts of effort with postings of old newspapers articles and photos as well as the events as they played out offering all options available. He has gone above and beyond and he deserves a lot of the credit for bringing this as far as it has come. As for any other comments,  insults and the like are always good for a good eye roll ;)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on July 22, 2013, 03:15:57 PM
My understanding of the rules, is that accusations regarding any person, is not kosher, if they have not been named as a POI or suspect by law enforcement.  That's not the case here.

This is what we do at Unsolved Canada--speculate, research, discuss possibilities, cross reference to other cases, etc.  Sorry jeb--that's what this site is all about.   And there are intelligent, caring and interested members who try to make a difference, and keep these unsolved cases in the public eye. IMO



Modified to change the word speculation in 1st sentence to accusations

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 22, 2013, 05:21:06 PM
So ANYWAY Jedigal... You mentioned you were going to a party that night... do you remember who else was going? Was Jackie supposed to be there too after her shift at the store? Which two friends saved you in the park? Are they still alive to go to the police now?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on July 22, 2013, 06:57:50 PM
It would be wonderful Jedigal, if you and your friend  could provide the information that solves the case. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on July 22, 2013, 09:52:22 PM
from Have Faith:
Quote
My understanding of the rules, is that accusations regarding any person, is not kosher, if they have not been named as a POI or suspect by law enforcement.  That's not the case here.


That is correct. Anyone not named as a POI or suspect by law enforcement, may not be spoken of in an accusatory manner. There are some things that can be discussed privately in emails and private messages if necessary.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on July 23, 2013, 11:34:20 AM
Thanks Debbie!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on July 30, 2013, 11:55:13 AM
Welcome Jedigal and thank you for your insight! Being so close to Jackie, I'm sure you'll be a terrific asset to this site's investigation.  I look forward to hearing more from you.  So nice to see the London site moving again.  It's been quiet far too long.
Nicely stated Jesa and Lostlinganer.  In my opinion, the families need and value all commentary here.  Through the sharing of information, memories, and expounding on various theories, we might, in our lifetime find peace in our hearts.
Jeb, I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Have Faith.  You state "For the past 2 years a group of individuals have used this board to accuse and bash one specific individual."  NONSENSE! In my opinion, this specific POI, and yes he is a POI in other cases, has only himself to blame for all negative and justified commentary.  He is not an innocent.  You clearly know this individual yet hold your cards close.  You defend this individual and that's something I don't understand.  I wonder when that old man finally leaves the planet and someone close to him finds the courage to speak up you might realize you have spent too many years defending a misfit who clearly wasn't worth it.   
Working as a team is the only way these cases stand a chance of being solved....let's not step on the very people who are helping us unravel our mysteries.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on July 31, 2013, 09:15:11 PM
"It would be wonderful Jedigal, if you and your friend  could provide the information that solves the case."

I agree, Elsie.  Wouldn't that be wonderful.

I don't know a single person on the London threads that doesn't want to know the truth, whatever that might be.  I've never met a more compassionate, good-hearted group of people.

Different people have different opinions, but if we don't have open discussion then how will we find out the truth?  I have experienced nothing but open discussion in this forum and on this thread. 

I think about Jackie's loved ones and the loved ones of other victims of violence in London every day.  My heart is with all of you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 01, 2013, 04:48:58 AM
Hello,

I had no idea this website existed, or that there are ongoing conversations regarding these unsolved murders. I hope my comments won't waste your time.

I remember the cases well, and my mother and father had a particular interest in the Jackie Dunleavy and Jackie English cases, because they knew someone involved as witnesses in both cases.

My father's best friend was sitting in his car at the corner of Wharncliffe Road and Stanley Street in front of the variety store. He was being held up by a car that was blocking the road and he was getting irritated by it. The driver of the car was having a discussion with a young lady standing on the sidewalk, and eventually she got into the car. I can't honestly remember if the event happened the night of JD disappearance or was sometime before.

My dad's friend was so irritated that he noted the type of car and the licence plate number.

When JD was reported missing, he recognized her picture and told the police the information.

My dad told me later who the car was registered to.

My dad also knew Mrs. Harrison as an acquaintance. My dad said she knew something about the missing girls, and was going to be a witness. When the attack on her happened, she was certain who it was who attacked her. My dad said she attributed the dog to saving her life. After the attack, dad said she was getting many threats and had a police officer staying in her home for a period of time. Then there was the sudden fire.

Dad could never figure out why his friend's information was never brought up in court, and actually never heard anything about it again. He also could not understand where her police escort was when she was attacked. As far as he knew, they were supposed to be with her to protect her as a witness. I recall my dad saying that Mrs. Harrison was terrified at the prospect of testifying.

I also learned by reading the JD thread, that her body was found near the CPRI.

You folks know much more details than I do, and perhaps this is all old news. If so, I apologize.

Thread content changed to exclude names.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on August 01, 2013, 07:54:51 AM
Hi Ardy....Thank you for taking the time to relay this "new" info to Jackie's thread. Nothing is ever deemed "a waste of time" & every lead is followed up on. At times it may appear that Jackie's thread is non active, when in fact during those quiet times the crew is very busy working behind the scenes.....not only Jackie's case but others. Your input is appreciated & is indeed helpful. Jackie's case is very active at this time frame & I honestly believe we will have answers in the very near future. Hopefully, as Jensen suggests, we can all find some peace. Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on August 01, 2013, 01:02:27 PM
Ardy's comment on here is truly enlightening... also reflective of what many have already perceived possible all along.  Was somebody in the police department, or else "in the know" by way of involved family members, either deliberately or unwittingly keeping the guily informed in some way? - thus providing opportunity for the killer/s to silence the only witness that could provide the necessary info. to put him/them away for life.  ... and it sure looks as though a "window of opportunity" provided in which to silence this witness.  Maybe... just maybe? there is somebody involved here who has a personal connection with a police person?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 01, 2013, 04:33:04 PM

Hi Ardy--welcome to Unsolved Canada and the London threads.



If possible, do you have a description of the make and colour of the car that Jackie D. was seen getting into?
 
Re your statement: "Dad could never figure out why his friend's information was never brought up in court, and actually never heard anything about it again."  Are you referring to the info of Jackie Dunleavy getting into that car, which was registered to a certain POI?  The trial was specific to GF's charge of assaulting Betty H.  It is my understanding that the judge could not allow any testimony that did not relate to this charge.  For example, any allegations regarding Jackie E's murder, that did not involve Betty H. and GF, would be prohibited, but obviously, could be used if GF was charged with her murder.

Have faith



Hello,

I had no idea this website existed, or that there are ongoing conversations regarding these unsolved murders. I hope my comments won't waste your time.

I remember the cases well, and my mother and father had a particular interest in the Jackie Dunleavy and Jackie English cases, because they knew someone involved as witnesses in both cases.

My father's best friend was sitting in his car at the corner of Wharncliffe Road and Stanley Street in front of the variety store. He was being held up by a car that was blocking the road and he was getting irritated by it. The driver of the car was having a discussion with a young lady standing on the sidewalk, and eventually she got into the car. I can't honestly remember if the event happened the night of JD disappearance or was sometime before.

My dad's friend was so irritated that he noted the type of car and the licence plate number.

When JD was reported missing, he recognized her picture and told the police the information.

My dad told me later who the car was registered to.

My dad also knew Mrs. Harrison as an acquaintance. My dad said she knew something about the missing girls, and was going to be a witness. When the attack on her happened, she was certain who it was who attacked her. My dad said she attributed the dog to saving her life. After the attack, dad said she was getting many threats and had a police officer staying in her home for a period of time. Then there was the sudden fire.

Dad could never figure out why his friend's information was never brought up in court, and actually never heard anything about it again. He also could not understand where her police escort was when she was attacked. As far as he knew, they were supposed to be with her to protect her as a witness. I recall my dad saying that Mrs. Harrison was terrified at the prospect of testifying.

I also learned by reading the JD thread, that her body was found near the CPRI.

You folks know much more details than I do, and perhaps this is all old news. If so, I apologize.

Thread content changed to exclude names.




Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 01, 2013, 06:56:20 PM
I am sorry to say that I just can't recall the details of the car well enough to say with any confidence.

I do remember they knew the specific make, model and color of the vehicle.

I understand what you are saying about the legality of presenting relevant evidence in a court. My parents were convinced the two girls abductions were related, and didn't comprehend why all the evidence couldn't be heaped on one table for the courts to sort out. They just didn't understand the complexities of the law.

I have wondered myself, why information regarding that car sighting was never released to the public.

The only two things I could come up with are.........police incompetence (where a police officer disregarded the information), or the police investigated the car and it was picking up someone other than JD (my dad's friend was right about the pick up......but wrong on the identity of the girl).

A third option is that the police knew who owned the car, but based solely on that one eye witness they couldn't lay charges of kidnapping and murder. When Mrs. Harrison arrived as a witness in another case, possibly involving the same person of interest, the police believed they may be close to having enough information to prove charges, and then the assault on Mrs. Harrison happened, which distracted the process to the trial over that incident. The police may have believed they had a slam dunk case, and once completed they would have the time to gather more evidence. The not guilty verdict disrupted that plan. and with the fire at Mrs. Harrison's home, the police were back to not enough proof to lay charges.

Aside from the legality of heaping unrelated information into a trial, there is also the legality of the police informing potential witnesses of information on other cases as well. Generally, they have a need to isolate witnesses to their own testimony, to avoid a future defense lawyer from suggesting the witness testimony was tainted by information the witness gained from the police.

Perhaps "compartmentalization" of the different parts.............led to problems overall?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 01, 2013, 07:45:08 PM
Thanks Ardy for your reply. 

I have come to realize that LE (law enforcement) will not mention any details about there being a specific car involved in their investigation, nor will they ask for the public's help in identifying a suspect car, when they already know who the car belongs to.  It makes sense, there is no need for them to ask or publish this information.

This seems to be the case in Jackie Dunleavy's case (as per your statements) and in Frankie Jensen's case ( the first report of a suspect white car was made 43 years later on the OPP web site).  They didn't need the public's help.



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on August 10, 2013, 04:03:34 PM
It's so nice to see new input here.  Welcome Ardy and thanks to lostlinganer for your thoughts and views.

The more people that are engaged in working on these cases, the better!

I have not posted much lately, but I will never, never give up hope that many of these old cases will finally be solved.

Thanks to everyone, new and old, for your contributions.

G.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 12, 2013, 01:47:31 AM
I think another problem...a huge problem then and now... was the London Police did not communicate with OPP and vice versa. I find there is a lot of confusion surrounding all these cases but more so cases which would have began as a London Police case but was turned over to OPP once the body was found. I'm not sure how this would work at the time but with Jackie English, the London Police would have been called first.  At that time, she was last seen outside the city limits but maybe because she lived IN  London and was missing, it stayed a London case until she was found then became an OPP case. Jackie Dunleavy was a London Police case from the beginning. Maybe this was a case of them not turning over all information and leads?

It seems strange the police did not investigate that further but maybe they either knew who owned the car but couldn't place a certain person IN it or they were just swamped with a lot of people saying they had seen her getting in different cars.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
When a young person is abducted--what could be more important, than tracking down the ownership of a suspect car?  Thankfully today we have Amber Alerts, where all available info on the car is immediately provided to the public. 

With these historical London abductions, which all happened in a short time period, the media did provide descriptions of suspect vehicles, as noted by eyewitnesses.  I am assuming that this was done with LE approval, but we really don't know for sure when LE is not directly quoted. Some of the descriptions were so vague that they were almost useless, and no further information was updated. 

Vehicle descriptions were published in the local paper for Scott L., Priscilla M., Jackie E. and Lynda White. Police went all out asking the public for help in tracing the car that Jackie E. was seen getting into.  Yet, there was no mention of any suspicious cars being seen in the area when Frankie J. and Jackie D. were abducted.  We have learned many decades later from UC posters Pookie and Ardy that there was a significant car seen in both of these cases, which had been reported to LE.  Pookie reported seeing the car to LE as a child, and then again during Project Angel. Once Pookie's information was posted on Frankie's thread this past year, the OPP then finally included this info on their website, and even noted that the car had been the main focus of the investigation.  The only reason I can think of why the car involved in FJ and JD cases was never made public, is as I mentioned earlier--they found out who owned the car(s).  He was either cleared or they couldn't find hard evidence to charge him.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 13, 2013, 09:04:22 PM
I have gone back and re-read the LFP reporting on the trial.

The first thing that struck me is why so much of the trial on the assault on Mrs. Harrison, involved the Jackie English abduction.
 
It seemed to sidetrack the trial from it's intended focus, and I cannot recall any other case where a judge allowed so much testimony into a trial that had nothing to do with the charges against the accused.

For what reason did the judge allow any of it to enter into the trial. Why did the Crown attorney allow any of it, because it not only served no purpose within the context of that trial, but laid bare a lot of evidence the police and Crown had on the JE abduction.

By allowing all that information into the trial and public domain, all the witnesses would have been tainted for any future legal action. Defense counsel could easily have argued the witnesses should not be allowed to testify in the future, lest an accused not receive a fair trial.

The defense appeared only too happy to play along, get possible future evidence out into the public view, and muddy the assault trial with a lot of evidence totally unrelated to the assault on Mrs. Harrison.

Had the Crown focused entirely on their evidence of the assault.............the outcome may have been different. Instead they spent most of their time on matters unrelated to the charges against Mr. Fryer.

From what I have read thus far............there are really only two possibilities.

Either Mr. Fryer was guilty of the assault charges, which begs the question as to why he would feel Mrs. Harrison was a threat to him.

Or.......................

Mr. Fryer was not guilty, Mrs. Harrison was lying in whole or in part, and trying to protect someone else.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on August 14, 2013, 02:08:34 PM
I've always wondered about the mental stability of both Mrs H and Glen Fryer.  He doesn't act like an innocent man at all. It's like he was using it as some kind of stage for "The Glen Fryer Show"  while she won't show her face. Even after the fire, the image of her son, the dogs and her husband is published in the paper but not hers. Normally the guilty hide their faces to and from court  but in this case, the victim is hiding in the photos. Does anyone else find it odd? I also wonder why the daughter was living at the Grandmother's in the Blackfriars area and had been since school age. Why was the son still living at home? It seems that he liked the publicity but I doubt his children did and surely not his wife.

Even the judge seems to doubt his own decision... saying "if you're not guilty it's a huge injustice but if you are guilty you need help" wouldn't the judge be more sure of his decisions?

I also wonder why the school board never contacted Mrs English about Jackie not being registered.  The night Jackie was asking people for a ride to the bus stop... was there NO ONE going into the city? They all lived out of town or St Thomas way? I wonder how many people she asked before rushing to catch the bus
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 14, 2013, 04:51:21 PM
Hi Ardy--you have made some very good points.  I have added some of my own comments below.

Quote
The first thing that struck me is why so much of the trial on the assault on Mrs. Harrison, involved the Jackie English abduction.
 
It seemed to sidetrack the trial from it's intended focus, and I cannot recall any other case where a judge allowed so much testimony into a trial that had nothing to do with the charges against the accused.

I am definitely not a lawyer and am clueless about 1970 assault trial laws, but I think it is standard practice for the Crown to try to establish a "motive" for the charges.  Because Mrs. H. claimed that she first saw GF while he was talking to JE, and was subsequently threatened after she reported this to LE, references to JE obviously became admissible evidence.  But I agree with you, there was evidence introduced that probably wouldn't be allowed today.  But I have a feeling that the Judge disallowed much more than he allowed.

Quote
By allowing all that information into the trial and public domain, all the witnesses would have been tainted for any future legal action. Defense counsel could easily have argued the witnesses should not be allowed to testify in the future, lest an accused not receive a fair trial.

You seem to have an understanding of 1970 trial laws.  If what you have noted is correct, and these witnesses would have been barred from further testimony, I have to wonder if the Crown already felt that they didn't have enough hard evidence to proceed with a murder trial, and went for the assault on BH instead.  They probably thought it was a slam dunk.  MOO (my opinion only).

Quote
Had the Crown focused entirely on their evidence of the assault.............the outcome may have been different. Instead they spent most of their time on matters unrelated to the charges against Mr. Fryer.

IMO, the Crown and LE presented shoddy work.  One example is LE did not protect the crime scene from the rain, and the boot print in the snow had partially melted away.  This could have been deemed key evidence at that time, considering that forensic DNA profiling wasn't available for almost three more decades.  I think the judge was distraught in having to decide this case as non-guilty.  He actually choked up with emotion when he let GF off.

Quote
From what I have read thus far............there are really only two possibilities.

Either Mr. Fryer was guilty of the assault charges, which begs the question as to why he would feel Mrs. Harrison was a threat to him.

Or.......................

Mr. Fryer was not guilty, Mrs. Harrison was lying in whole or in part, and trying to protect someone else.

Yes, those are the two possibilities which some members have discussed at great length.  Take your pick.

Hf

I have modified this post to thank Debbie for teaching me how to do partial quotes, and make comments to them.  Yay Debbie!









Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 14, 2013, 10:34:16 PM
There are so many unanswered and confusing questions in this case, that it is difficult to keep the timelines in accurate chronological order.

Perhaps it would be possible to establish one thread as a place to enter, arrange, and affirm all the information on the same page.

The thread could be started, people could post their entries on another post, and a moderator could merge the information with the main post, which would keep it to one main post and un-merged posts only.

Just a thought........
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 15, 2013, 06:54:36 AM
A timeline is a really good idea - I had thought of starting one but haven't had time yet.
Maybe there is a way to work together on one.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 17, 2013, 03:47:29 AM
Some people have expressed an interest in what the conditions of the CPRI institute might have been in the 1960s.

I remember the Ontario Hospital, and the CPRI as rather dark and scary places.

My dad's father was devastated by the death of my grandmother. He retired from the railroad and began drinking heavily. He suffered a stroke and was taken to the Ontario Hospital for treatment. He was admitted and within two months my dad was advised the Public Trustee had taken over all his affairs and had sold his father's home and a cottage in Northern Ontario. They sold both properties at far below market value. The cottage on a small island, all boats, hunting gear and all equipment were sold for $300 and the legal and sales costs were deducted from the money........so my grandfather got nothing from the sale. My father went to his local MP John White to no avail. The MP said the Public Trustee had the absolute power to do anything they want. The Public Trustee claimed they sold the properties to ensure my grandfather's medical bills would be paid. My grandfather left the hospital a few months later, and lived happily with my parents for another 12 years before he passed away. The sale of the cottage most affected my father, because my grandfather had built it and my dad and grandfather had spent many years up there together........hunting and fishing. I always held a deep resentment as well and many years later I stood on the island one day with a 2 gallon can of gasoline..........contemplating burning the place to the ground. Better judgement prevailed thank goodness, for I couldn't blame the current owners for what had been stolen from our family so many years before.

Note the bolded part..........because in those days, the prevailing attitude was the Public Trustee and the hospitals had absolute power over anyone who was unfortunate enough to be institutionalized. In those days, people could be kept against their will, simply on the orders of one doctor.

In related news............A class action lawsuit was launched in 2010 against the Ontario government for the treatment of patients, including young children, at the Huronia mental health facility in Orillia, Ontario. The abuses are alleged to have occurred from 1945 to 2009. A couple of scathing reports by a government auditor didn't seem to affect many changes over the years.

If you read the articles...........what is alleged to have happened is deeply troubling. Beatings, sexual abuse, parading children around naked are all mentioned in various articles. It was truly a living nightmare, especially for the children.

The lawsuit has gone through all the steps and is going to be heard at trial in September of this year.

No doubt it will be very much in the news.

Some links.............there are lots more by seaching........"Huronia lawsuit"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2010/07/28/huronia-lawsuit.html

http://www.kmlaw.ca/Case-Central/Overview/?rid=99

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/a-chance-for-huronias-invisible-to-be-seen-and-heard/article1387936/

And now apparently................there are lawsuits against more facilities. The abuse is alleged to have been very widespread.

http://www.institutionalsurvivors.com/
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 17, 2013, 04:22:19 AM
I was reading that Mrs. Harrison received a letter the day after her birthday, which had a red ink stamp on it that said............

Past Due. We are Looking For You.

Having lived during the era of wooden stamps with metal ink pads...........I remember seeing some that said Past Due............for bills etc, but am curious as to why a stamp would also include the words.........we are looking for you. The stamp would have been quite long, which would have made in rather distinctive.

It feels like a more humorous attempt to retrieve something, rather than a notice from a bill collector.

Perhaps over due library books? Any thoughts?

I also read that Mrs. Harrison received a sympathy card, similar to the ones distributed for free in funeral homes. I wonder if the police ever checked the card for fingerprints, or could locate the funeral home from which the card came? Did they check into recent funerals that were attended by suspects?

And lastly........for this post, the Crown presented a handwriting analyst at the trial. His testimony was that he could neither rule out the writing as the same as the suspect or confirm it was the same.

I wonder if another look at the handwriting today, with improved scientific techniques, including ink analysis and electron magnification could give a more precise analysis.

So many questions..............
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ardy on August 17, 2013, 04:38:24 AM
One comment from a poster on a Globe and Mail story about the lawsuit.

In 1976 I volunteered at the Ontario Hospital south of Aurora. Legislation had unlocked the institution to the public. The adult men I was assigned to were developmentally around 18 months old the same age as my daughter. When I came to see them they would line up to be hugged. No one who worked there would touch those people. They had no upper or lower teeth..they pulled them randomly for 'safety'...there were no programs for these men...they were warehoused in a manner that was worse than chickens....I cried every time I left the building. I was ridiculed by the staff for treating the patients like human beings... I was ultimately fired for becoming too 'personal' with these desperately lonely mentally challenged men. I still weep today reading your article...

The post makes me wonder that if the allegations are proven to be true, will the perpetrators be named and held responsible?

I think it is important that the government doesn't "settle" without the public knowing who was involved, because anyone working there with such little regard for others must have deep problems of their own.  These alleged abuses were reprehensible. If these things were happening on a continual systematic basis, and people were fired for showing compassion to the patients, the deplorable conduct of the health workers had to have been condoned by those in authority.

This kind of systemic abuse is top down.............not bottom up.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 17, 2013, 06:22:07 AM
We are coming up on the 4th very quickly and will be marking the day again with Jackie's Walk. We will meet at the McDonalds located in the parking lot of the Treasure Island mall and walk the over pass in Jackie's footsteps. Please meet about 9 30 so we can leave at the approximate time she did in 1969.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2013, 09:59:45 PM
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/JackieOct42013pic_zps68953c1e.jpg) (http://s215.photobucket.com/user/rkay7/media/JackieOct42013pic_zps68953c1e.jpg.html)


Rest in peace, Jackie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2013, 10:12:10 PM
Thank you all so very much for remembering Jackie tonight. To all those who came & walked tonight, Jackie's last walk, I want to express my gratitude. Tonight, we walked with Jackie....remembering her & how much she is missed still & always.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: roisindubh on October 09, 2013, 08:06:38 PM
I feel strange saying it was an enjoyable evening, given the reason we were all there...but it really was lovely to meet everyone. And I guess it's not so strange that it was a good evening after all, because it's turning a negative event into a positive remembrance of Jacqueline.  I'm glad we were there to join you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on October 26, 2013, 04:01:37 PM
It really was a pleasure to see everyone on "Jackie's walk" a few weeks back.  Even though I am not religious, it was clearly spiritual.

To think that Jesa and Jeb have waited so long to find out what happened to their beloved sister and that they still dig away to find out, is inspiring. 

As a community we are here for you.  The people of the London area have never forgotten. 

Always thinking of you and your wonderful sister, Jackie,

goNgo.



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Matty_46 on December 10, 2013, 10:27:37 PM
Can anyone point me to a post or posts that show GFs movements prior to all of this? Where was he born, where did he grow up, what was his family life like, what kind of hobbies did he have. I would also like to know the answers to these questions about the "porn man". But since his identity was kept confidential and no one knows who he actually is, I doubt that will ever happen.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on December 14, 2013, 09:17:55 AM
Hi Matty
Starting on page 6 there are articles about the entire trial. Mrs Fryer gave the information as to where he was around the time of the incident. Lots of twists and turns. At one point, we did look up Glen Fryer on the retired teachers of Ontario website and saw where he had studied to be a teacher and various other moments in his career
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on January 30, 2014, 02:42:16 PM
Seems as if Jackie keeps getting overlooked. DCAK has been kind enough to mention the airing of the OWN series To Catch a Killer & overlooked mentioning that Jackie is a part of this series. If employed by Ocean Entertainment perhaps a refresher course on getting all your information gathered before promoting the show would be a suggestion. To have my sister forgotten again is inexcusable & I am disturbed Jackie's case was not mentioned with the others, Linda White & Donna Awcock.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 30, 2014, 03:13:31 PM
Jackie has a lot of people to ensure she won't be overlooked. I will be asking as well. It has been too long and now is not the time to drop the ball, DCAK.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on January 30, 2014, 06:47:14 PM
Jackie English....episode 4, will be aired on OWN, March 22. Thank you Chickapey.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on January 30, 2014, 10:57:13 PM
I don't think that DCAT meant to overlook Jackie.  I think that Jackie's case would be announced soon.

What I see is Jackie's sister Jesa fighting for her on every front.  Good for you Jesa.  Lesson learned DCAT.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: SAP on January 31, 2014, 10:58:10 AM
http://ownca.oprah.com/Shows/To-Catch-A-Killer/Schedule.aspx

Thu, Mar 27, 2014 - 9:00 PM ET
S1 Eps #004 COLD CASE: English

Perhaps it was just an oversight for DCAK to miss Jacqueline's alloted time.

This can't come soon enough and I do hope this all jars memories to move ahead for some answers.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on February 13, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Dear Members,

I sincerely apologize for any miscommunication. We have been advised to follow certain guidelines in regards to what we are allowed to share until the show goes to air for certain confidentiality and legality reasons.  The media reach will be ramping up full-throttle as we head towards the launch date - Season Premiere is March 1st at 8pm ET.

We don't have the full-line up of air dates for every case online as of yet because some are still in post production.  Jackie English's case will be aired Saturday March 22 & 28th as per OWN's schedule: http://ownca.oprah.com/Shows/To-Catch-A-Killer/Schedule.aspx.

The cases we will be examining are the following (although not in the exact order):

Donna Jean Awcock
Margaret McWilliam
David Buller
Jacqueline English
Nadine Gurczenski
Tricia Roach
Lynda White
Clyde Frost

Please be reassured that we all worked tirelessly on each case and would never mean to overlook anything.  I will make sure to post all relevant info pertaining to the show for each case...please share if any info is missed as there are many threads.

Thanking you all in advance for your continued support.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on February 13, 2014, 10:22:37 AM
Ocean Productions has also activated a facebook and twitter account for the news series "To Catch A Killer".  Please visit these sites, as there will be updates on episodes, air-dates etc.

Social media posts will be very basic to start.  We are embarking on a slow build toward launch.  We will roll out more and more as we get closer to launch and beyond (addressing each episode as they are about to air).

https://www.facebook.com/ToCatchAKillerTV

https://twitter.com/ToCatchAKiller_
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on February 13, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Very greatly appreciated DCAK. Thank you for posting this information.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on February 13, 2014, 01:04:14 PM
My pleasure Jesa - I will share what info I come across throughout our social media campaign's as well.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on February 13, 2014, 07:01:34 PM
It's great that you are keeping us informed, thanks DCAK.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on February 14, 2014, 05:47:40 PM
thanks for posting ... quite a list of unsolved cases to be shown. Hopefully another season will be picked up
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on February 23, 2014, 12:58:45 PM
Not taking any chances on missing this show.  I've set up my pvr to record the first episode and every one there after.  I suggest that everyone do this if they can and then the episodes can be rewound and studied whenever we want.  One of us knows something and this type of programming is just what is needed to jog the memories.  I sincerely believe that this one is not motivated by money but a true desire to help the families of the victims find justice.

Thanks, Ocean Entertainment and Dr. Mike for this series and thanks to the OPN for picking it up.  With the overwhelming number of cases on this site there are enough unsolved crimes to keep this series going for years.  Dr. Mike just might become a household name.  I'm rooting for you, bulldog cop. 

edited for spelling
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on February 23, 2014, 07:46:33 PM
What channel? Is it on OWN?  It begins on Mar. 1st?  At what time?

Thanks in advance.

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on February 23, 2014, 11:23:46 PM
I agree with recording it ... I'm hoping to see it at a friend's since we have no cable. These are too important to miss.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on February 24, 2014, 07:42:46 AM
What channel? Is it on OWN?  It begins on Mar. 1st?  At what time?

Thanks in advance.

jb

Hi jb,

Season Premiere is this Saturday, March 1st at 8PM EST on OWN.  I have included a channel finder link and a link to the show's air dates.

http://ownca.oprah.com/Channel-Listings.aspx
http://ownca.oprah.com/Shows/To-Catch-A-Killer.aspx
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on February 24, 2014, 02:27:16 PM
DCAK - Found it!!

Multiple Thanks!!!!!! :)

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on February 26, 2014, 07:35:52 AM
A couple of questions:

Does anyone know if there were any vehicles stolen in London, in October of 1969.  If so, where any stolen in the same manner as the vehicle stolen from the Towers parking lot on October 4th?  (I'm guessing hot-wired?)

Does anyone know if there were any car chases followed by foot chases in London in October of 1969.  If so, does anyone know of a chasing police officer that sprained his ankle on exiting his vehicle?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 02, 2014, 03:06:02 PM
I had my doubts as to how objective Dr Mike was going to be with Jackie's episode.  However, after watching the episode on Donna Jean and seeing how professional he and his team were, I'm a little more confident that Jackie's case was probably not investigated as a witch hunt.  I guess we'll see. 

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 02, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
Jeb...you can rest assured that Jackie's case was investigated professionally & as unbiased from the get go. All that was sought was the true identity of Jackie's killer. That was what everyone was always looking for, not a scapegoat but the person responsible for killing Jackie. You go where YOUR evidence leads. As in Donna's case....2 very good suspects (re History) were closely examined & exonerated by dna....then the case moves on. A Viable suspect can not be passed over for any reason other than scientific proof to eliminate them.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 02, 2014, 04:54:24 PM
About a-year-and-a-half ago three persons, myself included, were asked if they thought that Jackie's friend had knowledge of Jackie's murder.  We all agreed that we thought she did.  However, everyone refuses to listen to what Jackie's friend has/had to say.  I spoke with her on July 22, 2002 and here is some info she keyed on. 

Approximately four days before Jackie was murdered Jackie's friend and Jackie attended a concert at Victoria Park.  Two men, {supposedly} police officers gave them wine (but not wine.)  Jackie had to be helped home. 

Jackie must have called her friend the night she was murdered and asked if she wanted to go out with these two police officers. 

After Jackie was murdered the police (the real police) questioned her with regards to the  two beer drinking men from October 3rd.  She told the police they could have looked like you.  (I'm guessing she meant police officers.) 

My take today on this info is that Jackie and her friend met two men (not police officers) who lived just on the east side of Victoria Park.  We, (Jackie and I) lived just on the west side of Victoria Park.

Jackie's friend also keyed on a school trip to the Pinery.  Apparently she was chased in the Pinery by a named police officer who sprained his ankle when he jumped from his car.  She was given a ride by a Park person and everytime she passed a gate she pretended to tie her shoe so as not to be seen by the named police officer.

My take on this is that possibly she is confusing two chases.  There was a real chase on the streets of London in mid-October 1969.  Her named police officer was involved in this chase.  Would love to know if he sprained his ankle. 

There are five or six other interesting pieces of info that tie into these two stories of Jackie's friend. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 02, 2014, 07:01:14 PM
Jackie's & I lose the term loosely "friend" was listened to & discrepancies as noted were far too many. Her history of the past (even she admits) is far from accurate. Her posts are outrageous but she gets away with the because she is frail. Once again, I subjected myself to her cruelty & deemed her stories were invented & best left for Hollywood. Mike also spoke with her & in the episode you will find his take on her. She was looked at by many & much time & energy was invested ....again. Oh...as were her demands for whatever she happened to need each meeting.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 02, 2014, 08:09:35 PM
I'm glad you got to see the first episode, JEB to see how things were done and how professional the team are. Hopefully it will be picked up for more seasons. There is no shortage of cases in the London area alone but country wide they could be investigating for a long time. The Awcock family obviously had to relive everything and although they have talked about it and answered a million questions about it, this still takes a lot out of a person and it really takes strength to relive it all in such a real way with additional and new information... especially that sketch... after 30 years, they found out the person they were looking for didn't even exist and as you could likely tell, the woman Donna was babysitting for that night didn't seem to be that truthful and even with a polygraph test, it seems she is still shady... taking off the next day to go in hiding for weeks and never speaking to the family again.

I met this 'friend' of Jackie's  this past summer and heard these stories almost word for word... kind of like point form.  Having also met Jackie's best friend V, I found this one to be the opposite of what I was expecting. She will admit herself that she suffers from PTSD among other things and had quite the childhood so it's no wonder she is not well. She does talk quite a bit about the two policemen harassing her and Jackie. I was surprised when she said one was the father of another young victim. At any rate, she seems more interested in finding the father of her son for her sons sake and with that I wish her and her son all the luck in the world.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 02, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
Hi Chickapey:

After over 10 years Jackie's friend's story about Victoria Park and the Pinery chase have not changed.  Liars can't keep their stories straight.  So what are we to make of post #204 and the "murderous pact" that the crew came out of their two month PMing session with.  The crew's old way of handling the many discrepancies was to take what facts worked for the theory and ignore the rest.  I guess we really have to wonder who the liar is here.

But yes Chickapey, I was and am very impressed with Mike and his team.  Just to remind you, I am Jackie's brother and we were very close. If you talked to V you will know this. V is a wonderful person.  She had to be, she was Jackie's best friend and a close friend of mine.  But the point I'm making here, is that I can and do understand what the Awcock family are going through right now.  Hopefully Justice for Donna and some sort of closure is not far off for the family.

Chickapey, you have been very kind and I would like to share a letter that my mother wrote to me in the mid 70's.  Will have to dig it up first though.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 02, 2014, 09:02:08 PM
For you Chickapey:
A letter from my mother to me in the mid 70's.

Dear Bus:

You have just left about 1 1/2 hrs. ago, and I just want to let you know I miss you.  You see I never told Jackie that - that I loved her and missed her, so I don't want to make the same mistake twice.  (And of course the letter goes on, but that"s what I wanted you to see.)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 02, 2014, 09:15:36 PM
Fred my suggestion to you would be to take the time & contact Mike. Your friend was a suspect, no witch hunt there.
You are offering your theory right now based on M's info.
I based my theory on my info.
That is what we do.
This forum is meant to offer theory's & to find murderers.
The research the JE team contributed got us to where we are now.
Which is an episode with the OWN on Jackie's case.
I will say no more until the airing is over...but I am thrilled with the results.
Please quit the accusations that JE crew did anything but devote their time & energy to helping find Jackie's killer.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 02, 2014, 09:19:00 PM
JeB... I'm glad you kept that letter. Obviously I never knew Jackie or your mother but I'd like to think Jackie knew how your mom felt. Some people just aren't able to express it exactly. I don't claim to know how it feels for this to happen to a sibling - especially one so close but I worry about the families seeing the show. The obviously want to or they wouldn't have taken part or pushed so long for answers but I think even after years of hurt, disappointment and anger a person can't just get used to it. I don't like to see anyone hurt so that's why I mentioned it.

V was lovely. I wasn't sure what to expect but she exceeded my idea of what a dedicated friend would be like. It was on Jackie's walk two  years ago and I got the feeling that she still suffers the loss of her friend. She said the police took all her pictures of Jackie except one. I wish they would give them back to her or at least copies. She's the kind of person you want to go the extra mile for. You're lucky to know her so well
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 02, 2014, 09:33:59 PM
Thanks Chickapey.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on March 03, 2014, 11:10:36 AM

I read back through this thread in an attempt to see if the article below had already been posted. It doesn't appear that it has (my apologies if I missed it). This article is from July, 2013. If you scroll down a ways you will see that it includes newspaper accounts taken from the archives that go back to when Jackie was first found.


News  Film crew on location near Otterville for OWN series

By Kristine Jean, Mitchell Advocate
Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:16:08 EDT PM
     
KRISTINE JEAN/TILLSONBURG NEWS/QMI AGENCY 
 

“It is a documentary crime series and we are filming in Ontario,” said executive producer Johanna Eliot with Ocean Entertainment based in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

The film crew was expected to be in the Otterville and Tillsonburg area filming for a total of two days on Wednesday July 17 and Thursday, July 18, 2013.


FROM THE ARCHIVES
TILLSONBURG NEWS

Friday, October 10, 1969

Girl’s body found in Otter Creek

The severely beaten body of 15-year-old Jackie English of London was found in the shallow water of the Big Otter Creek in the vicinity of Otterville about 5 p.m. Thursday (October 9, 1969) by two duck hunters.

Police spokesmen say the body is believed to have been in the water only three or four days.

At press time today (Friday, Oct. 10, 1969) an intensive search was being conducted in the area by the OPP for the girl’s killer and the weapon used. The search parties were assisted by tracking dogs.

An autopsy has been performed on the girl’s body, however, police did not release the cause of death.

The girl had earlier been reported missing from her home.

The OPP’s Chief Inspector, James McBride has joined Detective Sgt. Dennis Alsop, Cpl. E.J. Wild, and OPP Constable C.J. Coles of the Tillsonburg Detachment in the investigation. Constable Ron Rupert, an OPP identification officer from London, is also involved.
 
TILLSONBURG NEWS

Wednesday, October 15, 1969

Murdered girl’s clothing found near Richmond

Pieces of clothing found near Richmond Monday (Oct. 13, 1969) have been identified as those worn by a murdered London girl at the time of her disappearance. The body was found near Otterville last week. Police located clothing following a search of Bayham Township.

OPP Chief Inspector James McBride said the clothing was found in a ditch 200 feet south of a bridge over the Big Otter on Elgin County Road 46.

He said a search had turned up the black top of a dress, apparently ripped off from the skirt. The top was found in two pieces. A smock was found as well.

Clothing was found on both sides of the road. Still missing are parts of the girls clothing, a camel beige purse and shoulder strap, and a grey double-breasted mini-coat.

The shoes originally believed to have been worn by the girl at the time of her disappearance October 4 have since been located at her home in London. The shoes worn by the girl that day have yet to be located.

Clothing was found about 18 miles from where hunters discovered the nude and battered body of 15-year-old Jackie English of London last Thursday.

The body was found in the waters of the Big Otter below the bridge on the 10th Concession of South Norwich Township. An autopsy was later performed.

Inspector McBride said yesterday, “We are prepared to admit death was caused by a blow to the head.” He said there had been considerable bleeding. Police are awaiting the findings of the forensic sciences department in Toronto before the weapon used in the slaying can be determined.

As well, the actual murder scene has yet to be determined.

Inspector McBride said that police are interested in the public reporting any vehicles showing signs of blood stains.

“Or in any report of blood,” he said.

While the search for the girl’s killer continues, police have located an unidentified man who reported seeing the girl getting into what he described as a ‘dark’ car near Treasure Island Gardens at London the night of her disappearance. He was walking at a considerable distance behind the girl at the time she got into the car. However, he had known the English girl previously.

The OPP reported the man saying she had gotten into the vehicle at the rear door on the passenger side. “It is a reasonable assumption the vehicle we are looking for is a four-door,” he said.

Police are looking for a 1964 grey Chevrolet sedan, licence number 965-344, reported stolen from the Treasure Island parking lot between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. the night of the girl’s disappearance.

Inspector McBride pointed out that there may or may not be a connection between the two crimes, but they are interested in knowing whereabouts of the vehicle.

He said that police were continuing to search Bayham Township yesterday. They are asking township residents to report anything they find or anything that appears out of the ordinary to police.

Police are also interested in knowing anything anyone might have seen in the vicinity of Treasure Island the night of Oct. 4.

Inspector McBride said he remains confident that the killer or killers responsible will be apprehended. In the meanwhile, search continues both in the Tillsonburg district and the London area.

Funeral services for the girl were held in London yesterday afternoon.

TILLSONBURG NEWS

Monday, October 20, 1969

Man sought in killing

Ontario Provincial Police have produced a composite drawing of a man seen talking to murder victim Jackie English of London, the night she disappeared.

Inspector James McBride, who is in charge of the investigation into the girl’s death, said investigators must talk to the individual although he was not termed a suspect.

The man was seen talking to the girl about ten minutes before she left work.

A witness who gave police a description of the man said it appeared that Jackie was upset during her discussion with him.

He has been described as 5’9” tall, slim build, dark complexion, with dark bushy hair. Police had some reservations about his age, placing the man at about 30 years old.

A team of ten OPP are continuing their investigation into the girl’s death. Her badly beaten nude body was found in the Big Otter Creek near Otterville, Oct. 9 (1969).

An autopsy revealed that the girl had died from a single blow to the head.

Articles of clothing were found strewn along the road near Richmond.


http://www.tillsonburgnews.com/2013/07/17/film-crew-on-location-near-otterville-for-own-series (http://www.tillsonburgnews.com/2013/07/17/film-crew-on-location-near-otterville-for-own-series)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 03, 2014, 11:50:59 AM
Thanks Debbie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 03, 2014, 08:42:15 PM
When Donna disappeared, the family called the police the next morning... as soon as they found out she was missing... and tried to report her missing and get the police looking for her. They were told they'd have to wait 24 hours which was the norm then. Was this the norm in 1969? Did the neighbour who was supposed to be looking out for Jackie and her brother try to call the police earlier or get people to go looking for her?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 04, 2014, 09:49:13 AM
Going back to the BH trial, GF's defense was that he was being framed.  And the only reason (I can see) for BH to frame him, would be to protect someone close to her, or to get someone else that she was terrified of, to stop harassing her.  Nothing new here.  Since Project Angel in the late nineties, I have been searching for what Judge Colter was searching for.  That one piece of evidence, either way, that says yay or nay.  Three years ago I found the proof (a proof) that narrows BH's attacker down to two people.  It more or less eliminates from the framing scenario, the "to get someone else that she was terrified of, to stop harassing her".  However, with at least a handful of other good suspects out there, I believed (and also wanted to believe and still want to believe) that my proof must be flawed, or that one of its axioms must be incorrect.  However with Jackie's episode fast approaching (and after watching Donna Jeans episode) I truly believe that Dr Mike and his team has outted all of the "real" possible suspects.  So there's no reason to sit on my proof any longer.  Here it is.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on March 04, 2014, 09:52:11 AM
Dear Members,

Friendly Reminder: The 4th episode of "To Catch A Killer", which investigates the case of Jackie English, will air on Saturday March 22nd @ 8pm ET, Thursday March 27th @ 9pm ET, Friday March 28th @ 12am ET, and then again on Thursday April 24th at 4pm ET (on OWN Canada).

Please cross-reference with the Oprah.com SHOW Schedule  - in case they make any last minute changes (link below).

http://ownca.oprah.com/Shows/To-Catch-A-Killer/Schedule.aspx
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 04, 2014, 10:45:50 AM
I'm hoping someone will find a flaw or tell me that my axioms are unreasonable.

"Throughout the evidence I waited for some single bit of evidence on which an unchallengeable verdict could be given as to guilt or innocence.  Fingerprint evidence did not materialize, and the handwriting evidence simply fizzled out because of the inability of identification.  And as strong as the circumstantial evidence is and as compelling as the identification of Mrs. Harrison may be, in order to banish any reasonable doubt from my mind I would have to completely disbelieve the alibi evidence.  Suspicious of it I am.  But the greatest suspicion is not sufficient for conviction in a criminal case.  I am unable to say I totally disbelieve Mrs. Fryer's evidence regarding her husband's presence between 6 and 6:30 p.m. on Dec. 11th, particularly the manner and the timing in which it was given, and thus I have a reasonable doubt, which must be resolved in favor of the accused."  Judge Colter

1.  First of all, and this thought is only subjective in nature, I have always felt that Betty Harrison's visit out to the Children's Psychiatric Research Institute was not a coincidence.  I have always held the belief that she went there (with her boss as a safety net) to indirectly confront her antagonist - whether it be the Johnson's or Glen Fryer.  Her hope being, that by physically confronting her antagonist in a public place, she would be letting (them) know that she knew, who, he or she was.  And of course the thought was that this would put an end to the harassment.

a.  If her antagonist was one of the Johnson's, then Betty went out to the CPRI to let Dianna Johnson know, that she knew who they were.  But Betty also wanted to know what the Johnson's wanted from her, or what she needed to do in order to have the harassment stop.

b.  If her antagonist was Glen Fryer, then Betty went out to the CPRI to let him know that she knew who he was, in the hope that this might stop the harassment.

2.  If paragraph 1 is true, then the fact that Betty Harrison could not just go to the police and have her antagonist arrested, would seem to prove almost conclusively that she was protecting someone involved in Jackie's murder.

3.  According to testimony given at the trial, Betty Harrison's antagonist mailed numerous cards and notes to her.  Some she allegedly burned, others she kept and turned over to the police.  The three turned over to the police, are as follows:

a.  an "In Deepest Sympathy" card received in her mail December 11, 1969; the day she was attacked.

b.  a humorous greeting card which read something to the effect of "Since I last saw you I've been doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but mostly the other thing."  She found this in her car, (which was parked at a shopping plaza) in early May of 1970.

c.  a letter which read something to the effect of "Coming soon, your death.  Not today perhaps, not tomorrow, but soon, very soon.  Whether you spend it at the beach, or in the backyard, get the most out of your summer, after all, it's short enough."  This was confiscated by the police (from Betty's personal mail) at the post office in early July of 1970.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 04, 2014, 11:08:08 AM
4.  The following card was turned over to the police by Ruth Fryer on April 26, 1970; the day Glen Fryer was arrested.

a.  a humorous card which read something to the effect of "I don't feel safe around you anymore," and then upon opening the card, "you've got my combination."

This card was turned over to the police together with Betty Harrison's missing liability certificate.  According to Ruth Fryer they were received together in the mail in mid April, 1970.

5.  Apparently, Betty Harrison's antagonist had a sadistic sense of humor and his chosen method for communicating with Betty (and according to Ruth Fryer, with Glen Fryer as well) was by way of greeting cards and letters.  In my opinion the three cards all came from the same person;  Betty Harrison's antagonist.

6.  The "In Deepest Sympathy" card and the death threat sent to Betty in early July, both came in handwritten envelopes.  An expert witness at the trial testified that he couldn't say for sure that the handwriting on the envelopes belonged to Glen Fryer but he also couldn't say for sure that it didn't.  This leads me to the assumption that the handwriting on both envelopes was the same, and therefore the card and the death threat must have come from the same person; Betty Harrison's antagonist.

7.  Since the three cards came from the same person, and since one of those cards and the death threat also came from the same person, then all three cards as well as the death threat must have come from the same person; Betty Harrison's antagonist.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 04, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
8.  According to Glen and Ruth Fryer, in mid April of1970, Glen received Betty Harrison's liability certificate in the mail.  It came with the greeting card "I don't feel safe around you anymore...."  At that time, only the police, the Harrison's and the Johnson's knew that Glen Fryer was a suspect in the attack on Betty Harrison.  Therefore, realistically, Betty Harrison's liability certificate could only have gotten into the Fryer's house in the following four ways:

a.  if Glen Fryer carried it in, or mailed it to himself.

b.  if an accomplice of Glen Fryer's carried it in, or mailed it to him.

c.  if the Harrison's mailed it to Glen Fryer.  (This method assumes that:

(i)  Betty Harrison believed that Fryer was guilty and she wanted to ensure his conviction, or

(ii)  that the Harrison's were framing Fryer.)

d.  if the Johnson's mailed it to Glen Fryer.

9.  So then:

a.  if Glen Fryer carried it in or mailed it to himself, then (by definition) he (Fryer) and an accomplice are guilty.

b.  if an accomplice of Glen Fryer's carried it in or mailed it to him, then (by definition) Fryer and an accomplice are guilty.

And this is where the three cards and the threatening letter become important.

c.  if the Harrison's mailed it to Glen Fryer without the greeting card, then the greeting card belonged to Fryer, and therefore Fryer is guilty.  If the Harrison's mailed it to Glen Fryer with the greeting card, then they also mailed Betty Harrison the "In Deepest Sympathy" card on the day that she was attacked.  Since this makes no sense at all, it didn't happen.

d.  if the Johnson's mailed it to Glen Fryer without the greeting card, then the greeting card belonged to Fryer, and therefore Fryer is guilty.  If the Johnson's mailed it to Glen Fryer with the greeting card, then they also mailed Betty Harrison the "In Deepest Sympathy" card on the day she was attacked , and this is quite possible.  However, it also means that they dropped the "since I last saw you...." card into Betty's car in May, and that they mailed the threatening letter to her in early July.  However, this doesn't make sense, because (in this scenario) the Johnson's and Harrison's had been working together against Fryer since February, and he had been charged in late April.  So why now would the Johnson's be threatening Betty Harrison again.  (The only, only, only possible reasons that I can see for the Johnson's to send the last two communications to Betty Harrison, would be to compile more damning evidence against Fryer, or if Betty Harrison was getting cold feet about the upcoming preliminary hearing.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 04, 2014, 12:10:50 PM
10.  Ruth Fryer also gave the police a stenciled envelope that she claimed the liability certificate and the greeting card came in.  In my opinion, there are only three ways for the envelope to get into the Fryer's house.

a.  if it was the envelope containing the Life subscription folder that the Johnson's and Betty Harrison claimed they sent to Fryer.

b.  if Glen Fryer mailed it to himself (for the postmark) with the liability certificate and the greeting card inside because he did unwittingly return the Life folder to Betty Harrison's mailbox, as she claimed.  (In other words this would have been done to confuse the issue of what had been mailed to him.)

c.  if it was mailed to him with the liability certificate and the greeting card inside (as he claimed) by either the Harrison's or the Johnson's.

11.  So then:

a.  if it was the envelope containing the Life subscription folder..., then the liability certificate and the greeting card were already in Fryer's possession, and therefore Fryer is guilty.

b.  if Glen Fryer mailed it to himself, then he's guilty.

c.  if it was mailed to him with the liability certificate and the greeting card inside, as he stated, then once again the only possibility that makes sense to me is, that the Johnson's sent it to him to compile more damning evidence against him.

12.  This proof basically just mimics the trial.  Either Fryer is guilty or he was being framed.  But what it does do that doesn't sit right with me, is that it seems to eliminate all other suspects.  So as I've already said, I'm sure the proof is flawed or the axioms are incorrect. Again, I look forward to seeing what other suspects Mike outs, in Jackie's episode. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 05, 2014, 04:12:07 PM
Hi Chickapey:

Not to worry.  I won't actually get to see Jackie's episode until sometime next year.

Hi rkay: 

I just wanted to let you know that I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for Jackie.  You have stepped back from the board but you are the true hero here.  Again, I can't thank you enough.  These words just don't seem to express my gratitude, but again, Thank you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 06, 2014, 07:15:04 PM
Some interesting similarities between Jackie, LW and SO.  All three girls were picked up in areas where the bus system had ended. All three girls were supposed to have been hitchhikers.  Jackie and LW were both dumped in the same general area SE of London.  LW and SO were both covered with brush (not completely sure of that but I believe that's what I read in the LFP.)  Jackie also had a friend who had a family member who worked at the university.  There was also a picture of a young man sitting on a stone fence in Jackie's diary.  The stone fence looked like the type of structure you might find on the university campus although I could never find it, if it was.  Could never find an age related picture to compare to the picture in her diary.  With a bit of luck the picture might wind up on Jackie's episode. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 06, 2014, 07:33:45 PM
It wouldn't hurt for Donna Jean's family to have a look at the sketch in Jackie's diary.  In my opinion it's comparable to the one on their site right now, considering the age difference.  (1969 and 1983.)  My opinion only.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 06, 2014, 07:37:29 PM
The last post should have read "picture in Jackie's diary," not sketch in Jackie's diary.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 06, 2014, 08:18:01 PM
There was a poster who mentioned being picked up by the university around the same era ... right at Western Road and Sarnia Rd. The person driving attempted to assault her while driving. In the end she was able to escape from the car at a stop light. When she went to the police they said "what did you expect when you're wearing a skirt that short".  I've been trying to find it but can't remember which case it's under. I'll keep looking. I guess at the end of a bus line or near to one it would be an ideal spot for these 'people' to pick up a girl or even simply grab them. It would likely be fairly desolate and if not, I imagine at that time, more likely to accept a ride offered vs walk to the bus and take it all the way back into the city.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 06, 2014, 08:19:53 PM
A man sitting on a stone fence... that could still have been at the university but with the changes there it's likely long gone. For some reason, I remember a stone fence at Springbank park.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 06, 2014, 09:21:15 PM
The more I compare the picture with the sketch the more I find them eerily similar.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on March 16, 2014, 09:35:01 PM
I can't wait to see the episode for Jacqueline this coming Sat. I have looked forward to this since the day I found out about it, last Oct 4th while we all gathered at McDonald's for Jackie's walk. It has been on my mind alot. I can't wait to see how they put it all together on the show and hopefully something really good will come out of this. Great job on the other episodes I have seen so far.  :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on March 17, 2014, 07:56:55 AM

When I moved from the Toronto area to London and later studied at Western, I was always vigilant because of all the murder and rapes reported in the '60 and '70s.  I felt safer traveling alone in Toronto than in London.   So the only surprising part of this statement was that is is a world record :
 London, Ont., the serial killer capital of the world, says criminologist Mike Arntfield. ( during the 60's and 70's).
I hope that this series continues with other unsolved cases in Canada and that safety is increased for everyone.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on March 18, 2014, 02:20:56 PM
They have posted a preview of this Saturday's episode on their Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/ToCatchAKillerTV
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on March 18, 2014, 02:36:01 PM
Jacqueline English was just 15-years-old when she disappeared after working the evening shift at a local snack bar in London, Ontario in 1969.

Her killer was never brought to justice. Her sister Anne is continuously haunted by this fact. Her drive to catch her sister's killer remains as strong as ever. Anne hands Jackie’s diary over to Mike and the squad, giving her blessing to thaw out this cold case. Upon investigating, the diary seems to contain some type of cryptic insight... Will the secrets within the pages of her diary contain clues to her death?

Episode 4: English airs this Saturday, March 22nd on OWN (Canada) at 8 p.m. ET. Don't miss it!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=214621458736574&set=vb.196186283913425&type=2&theater
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on March 20, 2014, 05:15:26 PM
Unfortunately we don't get OWN network!  I don't know how I'm going to see it.   :(

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 20, 2014, 05:27:41 PM
google OWN and then see if you can open any videos of the show.  My computer is acting up, so I couldn't, but at this point I can't even watch youtube..lol.  Anyways on the OWN page there is an icon for each show Oprah produces.....To Catch a Killer is on there...go down the page.
I think it was also mentioned on one of these threads that you can watch it on you tube pretty quick after it airs on the Saturday night... before it's removed.
Hopefully one of these suggestions works.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on March 21, 2014, 08:02:26 AM
A suggestion for folks without OWN:  Maybe someone would tape it .  I am reording it on PVR and would be happy to let people see it.  The downside though, I live halfway between London and Sarnia in the country.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 21, 2014, 08:11:15 PM
To everyone anxiously waiting for some word...the story is out. LFP...Jane Sims has done a lengthy article on these cases tomorrow.  But available now on the website of LFP.
After our walk 2 years ago, Dennis Alsop Jr. came forward & connected with me after reading about it. His father Dennis Alsop had stored pertinent info, files & his journals away, hoping someday they might be of use. Dennis offered...I accepted & since then many other families have learned info that we needed. After 45 years, it was apparent, the working "cops" were not looking at the originals & weren't particularly interested in them. WE sure were. Will update after the airing but the cats out of the bag now...God bless you Dennis Alsop Jr. for all your help, these last 18 months.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 22, 2014, 05:30:41 AM
Wonderful news Jesa!  I read the article in the LFP and I think that although it has been such a long time, fate has a strange way of working.  Your march across the overpass in 2012 happened around the time Dennis Alsop Jr. was going through his father's memoirs, which brought you together.  So very glad for you. 

Speaking of fate, quite a while back, I remember reading (maybe on this thread, or another one from London) about M.Arnfield teaching his students and working on American cold cases....I commented that it was too bad him and his students didn't work on London/Canadian cold cases since they would be more familiar with the area and maybe even know so and so through family/friends/acquaintances.....and here he is a few years later with a show on OWN featuring local (to Ontario) cold cases!

You just never know.  I cannot wait to watch tonight.  Thank you to Dennis Alsop Jr. and to M.Arnfield and team, thanks for stepping up.  Thanks Jesa.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 22, 2014, 07:01:24 AM
http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on March 22, 2014, 09:42:08 AM
To everyone anxiously waiting for some word...the story is out. LFP...Jane Sims has done a lengthy article on these cases tomorrow.  But available now on the website of LFP.
After our walk 2 years ago, Dennis Alsop Jr. came forward & connected with me after reading about it. His father Dennis Alsop had stored pertinent info, files & his journals away, hoping someday they might be of use. Dennis offered...I accepted & since then many other families have learned info that we needed. After 45 years, it was apparent, the working "cops" were not looking at the originals & weren't particularly interested in them. WE sure were. Will update after the airing but the cats out of the bag now...God bless you Dennis Alsop Jr. for all your help, these last 18 months.


I'd just like to say that Dennis Alsop Jr. is a "hero" to the families of these unsolved murders.  God bless him for continuing his father's dedication to solving the murders, and for his empathy in providing some answers to the families.

Anne was the catalyst in bringing Dennis and Mike Arntfield together, which has done more for these cases than has been done in several decades.  Hats off to Dr. Mike Arntfield and his team.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on March 22, 2014, 10:48:39 AM
This is a great article.  The OPP really bothers me though.  They almost seem to be stubbornly dragging their feet when it comes to the cold cases.  The episodes of To Catch a Killer were filmed months ago and information turned over to the OPP.  Let's speed it up, Ontario Provincial Police!  The amateur sleuths and Dr. Mike and his team are doing so much more than you are.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on March 22, 2014, 12:53:39 PM
http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer)
Thanks chickapey for the link: Hope you don't mind, but I have copied it below.  It is a prelude to possible leads .... and we all know how links can disappear from the net.

Boxing in a serial killer 0   

By Jane Sims, The London Free Press

 Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:02:31 EDT AM
An old cop’s memoirs, found in a box, have fuelled a private investigation into cold case murders in the London area, including three girls killed a generation ago, that points to a suspected serial sexual killer.

--- --- ---

In a cardboard box deep in the back corner of his basement, Dennis Alsop kept what could be the keys to solving some of London’s most troubling murder mysteries.

Nestled beside his Second World War memorabilia, the late OPP superintendent hid away a personal time capsule — memoirs and news clippings chronicling his best efforts to solve a string of horrifying, still-unsolved sex killings more than 40 years ago.

That discovery by Alsop’s son, after his father died in 2012, now has the potential to finally solve the murders in the late 1960s and early ‘70s of at least three young women — Jackie English and Soraya O’Connell, both 15, and 19-year-old Lynda White — and maybe more.

A celebrity sleuth who got wind of the clues and hunches the retired cop left behind has come up with an even more sinister theory — that a sexually motivated serial killer with an erotic attraction to corpses, who’s already been convicted of murder, was lurking around Southwestern Ontario, randomly picking off young women to satisfy his sick urges.

That theory is outlined in a private investigative report, obtained by The Free Press from a police source.

The suspect was willing to drive long distances and may have kept souvenirs from his deadly conquests. He made sure other personal items taken from his victims were disposed of far away from the bodies.

He may have kept the corpses for days, weeks — even years.

That suspect could be responsible for the deaths of the three young women.

It’s Alsop’s memoirs that sparked the new investigation.

“He left this stuff and he left it intentionally. He never forgot it was here,” said Alsop’s son, Dennis Jr., 63, of London, who found the cache while looking for his father’s wartime mementoes.

Perhaps Alsop wanted his old memories to be seen by a fresh pair of eyes.

Maybe, he was afraid his memoirs would grow dusty on a shelf anywhere else.

His son is convinced his father wanted the box found. The information has proven an excellent starting point for a group of civilian investigators, led by London police officer and Western University professor Mike Arntfield. They want the OPP to follow up.

The theory about English’s death will be shown Saturday night on the Oprah Winfrey Network on To Catch A Killer, a TV show led by Arntfield that applies modern science and investigative techniques to unsolved cases.

Arntfield won’t tip his hand about what he’s found in the English case, but is already working on a book that points to London as potentially North America’s serial killer capital in the 1960s and ‘70s. It was fertile ground for homicides largely because of its location along the then-new Hwy. 401. It was one of the continent’s first cities with “urban-controlled highway access,” allowing people to drop in and out with ease.

He said he’s convinced there were at least seven serial killers, including known murderers Russell Johnson, Gerald Archer and Christian Magee, who saw London as a hunting ground for young, vulnerable sexual prey.

And Alsop’s memories have convinced Arntfield he’s right.

“I think it’s one of the most important criminal artifacts in this region, if not the province, that’s still available in its original form and context,” he said of the old cop’s treasure trove of new clues.

“It’s impossible to predict how widespread some of his (Alsop’s) theories and some of this archival information may reach.”

--- --- ---

The handwritten names of cold cases pop off the pages of Alsop’s memoirs.

Young waitress Jackie English.

Western University student Lynda White.

The boys — Frankie Jensen, Scott Leishman, Bruce Stapylton.

The London city police investigation of Jacqueline Dunleavy and disappearance of Soraya O’Connell. The OPP investigation of Priscilla Merle’s tragic demise.

The unsolved homicide body count between 1968 and 1973 sent shivers through London and Southwestern Ontario.

But the homicides weren’t the initial reason Alsop’s son started reading the memoirs not long after his father died two years ago, at 92. He wanted to find out more about his long policing career.

“I know my father far better than I ever knew him when he was alive,” he said, from reading his work.

His dad was a hard-wired cop who found joy in policing over a 32-year career, from early days as a Mayberry-like, small-town Ingersoll constable chasing milk bottle thefts, to the painstaking investigations of major homicides.

After serving in Canadian army intelligence in Europe during the war, he joined the OPP in 1947 and quickly moved up the ranks, thanks to his investigative instincts and expertise in fingerprinting and forensics. He became an OPP det.-sgt. in London in 1963, remaining on the front lines of major investigations for 20 years.

Three years later, Alsop worked under Insp. Harold Graham, later the OPP commissioner, who was the lead investigator in the infamous Steven Truscott case near Clinton in 1959.

Truscott, then 14, was sentenced to death in 1959 for the murder of classmate Lynne Harper, a term commuted to life in prison in 1960.

Alsop became the first officer to testify as an expert witness at the Supreme Court of Canada when it heard arguments for leave to appeal Truscott’s controversial conviction. Alsop offered Crown analysis of the footprint patterns photographed by another officer near victim Harper’s body.

While the court denied the appeal and Truscott’s guilty verdict was upheld, the national uproar over Truscott’s conviction didn’t recede. Not until 2007 was Truscott acquitted by Ontario’s highest court.

Alsop’s son said he believes the Truscott hangover affected the OPP’s later investigations in the 1960s and 1970s.

“I think that Truscott had a bearing on the OPP for 10 years after. They never wanted to get in another situation where they arrested somebody on such weak evidence,” Dennis Jr. said, adding he believes that frustrated his father as he tried to solve murder cases.

Despite his father toeing the OPP line Truscott was a killer, he’s convinced now Alsop never believed Truscott killed Harper.

With Truscott in the background, the tone of his dad’s memoirs changed in April 1968, when the partially-clad body of missing nine-year-old Londoner Frankie Jensen was found in the Thames River near Thorndale two months after he disappeared.

That began Alsop’s investigations into a terrifying killing spree of at least seven young people.

A devout Catholic, Alsop and his wife and four kids went to mass every Sunday. He often went during the week.

“He’d sit there and pray longer and I’d think, ‘Gee, he must have sinned a lot,’” Dennis Jr. said. “Then it dawned on me when I was reading these (archives), he was carrying a lot of weight.

“He was praying for some solution. He was also praying they catch these guys so nothing else happens.”

--- --- ---

Answers were hard to come by, especially in the case of Jackie English, the 15-year-old waitress at the Metropolitan store at the Treasure Island Mall on London’s outskirts.

She left work at the store’s lunch counter about 10:30 p.m. on Oct. 4, 1969 and was last seen alive getting into a maroon-coloured car at the mid-point of the Wellington Rd. bridge that spans the Hwy 401.

Five days later, her naked, sexually assaulted body was found by duck hunters in Big Otter Creek near Tillsonburg. She was killed by a blow to the head.

Bubbly and petite, English worked both at The Met and the Latin Quarter restaurants.

Back then, London was a bucolic city of 212,000. The 401 had only been open a dozen years. The mall, beyond city limits and bus routes, was akin to a highway truck stop that attracted both locals and strangers.

None of today’s investigative tools were available to Alsop — no surveillance cameras, no computerized police data bank or DNA testing. There was little sharing of information between the OPP and other forces.

“Missing girl in Treasure Island area,” is Alsop’s first reference to the case. For years “further investigation murder of Jackie English” appears in the pages. Her name was often mentioned at home.

Alsop and a determined team of officers were introduced to “some of the strangest characters you’d ever meet in your life” while they tried to find English’s killer, Dennis Jr. said.

Leads came and went.

There was the circus that followed Glen Fryer, the principal at Children’s Psychiatric Research Institute in London, who was accused of stabbing Betty Harrison, a main witness in the English case. After a soap-opera like trial in 1970, he was acquitted and the hunt for English’s killer dragged on.

Fryer isn’t a suspect in the English case.

Alsop, promoted to OPP Inspector in 1972, remained “like a bloodhound on a scent,” his son said, returning to London from Toronto often to interview and re-interview witnesses and knocking on doors of potential suspects.

The skeletal remains of White, 19, who disappeared in November 1968, turned up in Norfolk County in 1973. Alsop’s memoirs seem to link the cases.

Then the remains of O’Connell, age 15 when she vanished from London in 1970, were found near Stratford in 1974.

Alsop doggedly pursued English’s killer until the end of 1976, when he was promoted to superintendent. He retired three years later and threw himself into charitable work in Mississauga.

Once in awhile, the OPP would call to jog his memory when they blew the dust off cold case files, as they did in Project Angel in 1988. Twenty cases, including English, White and O’Connell’s, were re-examined.

In retirement, his father would still get upset hearing about a child or youth homicide, his son said.

“He was always concerned that it was somebody who was involved in one of his cases and they didn’t get them. They went out and did it again.”

--- --- ---

Decades passed. But the pain, sadness and thirst for answers by victims’ families remained fresh as ever.

English’s family believed her case was solvable. Her brother, Fred, diligently researched the case, creating a large volume of information.

Her sister, Anne English-Cremers, with a devoted crew of amateur sleuths, did her own dig for clues. In 2000 she spoke to Alsop by phone for two hours. The old cop admitted it always bothered him the case was never closed.

In October 2012, she asked the public to join her at a 401 overpass to commemorate the 43rd anniversary of her sister’s disappearance by walking across the bridge and completing the journey English never could.

Coincidentally, when the story appeared in The Free Press, Dennis Jr. had just finished reading his dad’s memoirs of the English case.

It was the spark that propelled him to connect with English’s sister, meeting her at a London library and showing her that English, beyond the brutal sexual assault, had no other injury than a single blow to the head.

That fact was a revelation and a comfort, English-Cremers said. “I thought Jackie had been held and tortured. You envision the worst.”

Eventually, through connections, the memoirs came to Arntfield’s attention.

When he saw what Alsop had left, he was gob-smacked.

“I’m confident he knew all these crimes were solvable, that many of these murders were connected and he lacked the resources, the support and the technology to bring his theories to fruition at this time,” he said.

It’s why Alsop “created this time capsule, hoping that somehow, someday, someone would have the means to carry on with his work.”

English’s story will be profiled Saturday night. Arntfield won’t go into detail.

But a report of his findings sent to the OPP gives fresh insights into the homicides and makes connections between the English, White and O’Connell homicides, a solved murder and a convicted killer.

The theory points to a sadistic, necrophilic serial killer who drove far, disposed of his victims, days, weeks or even years after killing them and scattered their belongings far away from their bodies. The killer is thought to have kept slaying souvenirs and hidden jewelry, other belongings and body parts at a personal location.

In the English case, there’s a DNA sample available that could be compared to the suspect, the report says. It recommends testing clothing from other cases and a dig for evidence potentially left behind 45 years ago.

The ball is now in the OPP’s court, but its say the independent probe has little bearing on its investigation.

“It’s still an open case,” OPP Sgt. Dave Rektor said of the English homicide. “When information and evidence comes forward, we certainly do follow that.

“But our response in this instance is the show has no connection to the OPP and our ongoing investigation.”

--- --- ---

If she were alive, English would turn 60 next month, a lifetime removed from the young girl in the black-and-white photo published countless times over 45 years in hopes of solving her slaying.

Now, her sister says, there’s hope.

Alsop’s information and the private investigation has brought English-Cremers “a sense of peace.”

She sleeps better now that she has a name and an answer.

“I want people to remember Jackie and I would like to see an arrest of the guilty party,” she said.

“Our entire lives have been about seeking answers for Jackie and after 45 years, thanks to complete strangers, we are standing on the threshold.”

Alsop’s son agrees the OPP investigation should be rekindled. He emphasized they already know everything his father knew.

What’s clear to Dennis Jr. is that his dad was haunted by what was left unfinished and wanted nothing more than to solve the cases.

“It’s so close and it’s either yes or no,” he said.

jane.sims@sunmedia.ca

twitter.com/JaneatLFPress

--- --- ---

THE VICTIMS

Lynda White, 19

A Western University student from Burlington, she disappeared Nov. 14, 1968 after a French exam. Her skeletal remains were found May 9, 1973 in Norfolk County.

Jackie English, 15

Vanished Oct. 4, 1969 after getting into a car on the London Wellington Rd. overpass at the Hwy. 401. Her nude body found Oct. 9, 1969 in Big Otter Creek near Tillsonburg. Some of her clothing was found in Oxford and east Elgin counties.

Soraya O’Connell, 15

Disappeared Aug. 14, 1970 after leaving a youth drop-in centre near Fanshawe Park Rd and Highbury Ave. in London. Her skeletal remains were found just outside Stratford on May 26, 1974.

THE OLD-SCHOOL COP

Dennis Alsop Sr.

The late OPP officer left a treasure trove of information about his efforts to solve cold cases.

THE SON

Dennis Alsop Jr.

He found his father’s box of materials stashed in his dad’s basement after he died in 2012.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on March 22, 2014, 07:08:45 PM
While many of us know the blurred out references....what really irks me is that the OPP are saying that none of this is relevant and none of it will make of difference in their investigation.

That's a clear slap in the face to the families.  And, a clear slap in the face to taxpayers, who pay their salaries.

Just my opinion, and happy to state it.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on March 22, 2014, 07:19:34 PM
While many of us know the blurred out references....what really irks me is that the OPP are saying that none of this is relevant and none of it will make of difference in their investigation.

That's a clear slap in the face to the families.  And, a clear slap in the face to taxpayers, who pay their salaries.

Just my opinion, and happy to state it.

Quote from article.
"In the English case, there’s a DNA sample available that could be compared to the suspect, the report says. It recommends testing clothing from other cases and a dig for evidence potentially left behind 45 years ago.

The ball is now in the OPP’s court, but its say the independent probe has little bearing on its investigation.

“It’s still an open case,” OPP Sgt. Dave Rektor said of the English homicide. “When information and evidence comes forward, we certainly do follow that.

“But our response in this instance is the show has no connection to the OPP and our ongoing investigation.” unquote

--- --- ---

Yes, it is a slap in the face.  LE always say it is "an ongoing investigation" - in every case!!

We, the public often don't believe this. jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on March 22, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Unfortunately LE doesn't like to be shown up by a TV show, and will resist following up on what has been done unless pressured, write the LFP, email the OPP, CBC.


Edited to remove name.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 22, 2014, 11:12:26 PM
The show referred to the person as "David" and so should we. Anything beeped out in the show, should be off limits here in the public forum.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 23, 2014, 03:53:47 AM
So.....David was old enough to drive back in 1969?  And, had his own car?  Or, his parent's car?

Glad I can lip-read....have to when watching "To Catch a Killer"....I like the show, too bad they have to beep out pertinent names of people and places....yes, I know, innocent until proven guilty.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 23, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
I think he would be if the team were seriously discussing him as a POI

It's annoying that OPP are not acting on any of this. Thinking of why, I can only imagine two reason: One is they don't want to make it look like the officers at the time messed up at all. In fact, the opposite is true in this case. Obviously Detective Alsop went above and beyond his job even after retirement. It's amazing to think of what he'd do with the technology of today if he had it back then. Secondly, it would also make project angel look like a lot of smoke and mirrors. Had this been thoroughly investigated during project angel, this person would have not only been looked at but tested for DNA. Obviously he wasn't.

I think in cases like this, what we need to do now is become more vocal. Sure the police read this site but we're just chatter on the internet for them. What about if we were right there in person asking them to take this information and go with it? They can't ignore a few hundred people on the lawn
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 23, 2014, 08:08:06 AM


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    An old cop, a box, a shocker

A convicted killer named “David” has been identified by a celebrity sleuth and his team as a possible suspect in the four-decades old homicide of a 15-year-old Southwestern Ontario girl.

To Catch a Killer, a reality crime detective series that aired Saturday night on the Oprah Winfrey Network, profiled the unsolved murder of Jackie English of London.

The civilian investigative team, using some clues left behind by a deceased OPP detective and modern investigative tools, narrowed the search down to a man convicted sometime in the 1970s of non-capital murder.

The full name of the suspect, his original hometown and other details about his previous crime were obscured during the show for legal reasons.

The show, the brainchild of London police officer and Western University professor Mike Arntfield, re-examined the cold case murder of English, a London girl who vanished on Oct. 4, 1969.

Her naked body was found in Big Otter Creek near Tillsonburg four days later.

A map shown during the broadcast pinpoints the suspects home base to west of Tillsonburg.

Also included in the show was Dennis Alsop Jr., the son of a main OPP investigator in the case who found memoirs left behind by his late father, Dennis Sr., about his investigations.

The files were the starting point for Arntfield and his team. A report leaked to The Free Press that has been sent to the OPP links English's death, along with the deaths of Lynda White, who disappeared in 1968 and Soraya O'Connell, who vanished in 1970 to the same suspect. Both young women also vanished from London, their remains later found in the region.

Contacted after the show, Anne English-Cremers, English's sister said she was pleased with the show and the results she was told.

She would like to see the OPP act on the results.

“I don't want this to be put away again,” she said.

Earlier this week, the OPP said the TV show's probe has no connection to their ongoing investigation.

The TV show's detectives examined several key pieces of evidence, including an interview with Londoner Marilyn Hird, a friend and co-worker of English's at the Metropolitan store at the time of her disappearance.

Several weeks after English's death, Hird was found in downtown London suffering from an overdose form a botched suicide attempt with a photo of English in her pocket, with words written on the back indicating she would take the killer's name to her grave.

The team suspected Hird was protecting a relative who had a criminal record for assaulting a child and armed robbery.

During the interview with Arntfield, Hird refused to give the identity and admitted she was sometimes “drugged up on psychiatric medication.”

It was a geographic profile using a technique called Rossmo's Formula, that helped the team pinpoint “David” as a suspect.

The technique, designed by a former Vancouver police detective and academic, helped track down mass murderer Robert Pickton, who was convicted six women and suspected in many deaths of Vancouver prostitutes.

The technique tries to pinpoint the home base of a suspect by plotting main factors of each case.

In the English homicide, the investigators plotted where English was abducted on the Wellington Rd. overpass, where her clothes and brown penny loafers were found, and where her body was found.

Her torn clothing was many kiliometres away from her shoes in East Elgin and Oxford counties. When the body was found, her earrings had been removed.

The plotting points were compared to areas identified with the suspect's other crimes. Peter Leimbiglar, a medical biophysicist on the team said during the show the comparison “lights right up” with the other points.

Also included in the investigation was the use of a forensic linguist who reviewed a letter from the brother of English's boyfriend and a Brock University expert in facial perceptions.

Cathy Mondloch compared a police sketch to photos of Hird's relative and “David”, with “David” appearing to be a closer match.

However, it was emphasized that the sketch described to police by a witness at the department store might not necessarily be English's killer.

“David”, the show claims, is alive and well and no longer living in the area.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on March 23, 2014, 10:43:44 AM
Re: Georgia Jackson - 18 - Murdered - February, 1966 - Aylmer, ON
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »

"Information from the London Free Press article dated Wednesday, June 21st, 1972, written by Paul Sallaway:  (I don't believe these are quotes.)  Georgia's white scarf was found approximately one-half mile east of Hwy 73, on the first Concession road just north of Aylmer, while her coat was found behind a tree, 15 feet from County Rd 32.
Although Jackie English's case took a completely different turn (with regards to suspects) after a witness was attacked, I don't discount anyone.  In my 21 Chapter, 440 page case study of Jacqueline English's murder, I have written, "One last point to mention, is the fact that Georgia's body and Jackie's shoes, were found in the same general area, the two locations being only about one mile apart.  To me, this coincidence is absolutely astounding."

The above quote was made by Jeb almost three years ago.  Jeb, I know you didn't watch Jackie's episode of TCAK last night but I think you should know that the comparison of the locations was made by the team.  Dr. Mike specifically mentioned them and he believes there is no coincidence.  The evidence points to the same person killing Georgia and Jackie.

   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jeb on March 23, 2014, 01:15:54 PM
Hi GG

(Fortunately, I was able to see Jackie's episode last night.)

Thank you for your post.  It is appreciated. 
Both of Dr Mikes suspects are high on my list of "10 good POI's," and they have been for a long time.  There were no surprises.  (My mother spoke with X's mother in the 1970's and I spoke with a sibling of X's early in 2006.)  But I found the geographical profile very compelling.  In fact, I found it "absolutely astounding." 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: D1 on March 23, 2014, 01:40:47 PM
For all the reasons already stated, there is an avenue left open to follow up on. That old cop did well to preserve those files for a later time when technology may come into play. That time is now.. We have all been informed of the problems associated with old dna cases but there are ways to get around it. (if the authorities can be convinced) Rossmo's profiling program has been widely accepted and is being used all over the world. There is a basis in fact that is undeniable and should be able to be used to propel testing to the next stage. Family involvement and media attention is crucial. Now is the time for Jackie..
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 23, 2014, 04:34:43 PM
Anne asked this be posted:


Jackie's episode has been aired & I am finally able to speak about the sheer kindness & goodness, experienced by (once) complete strangers. My brother Fred introduced me to the unsolved site & for a little while, we just visited, keeping an eye on Jackie's thread primarily. At some point, Fred noticed rkay's keen eye for research & asked rkay, to have a look at Jackie's murder, because of the complexity of the facts. Fred had spent years gathering & going over all the material but truly wanted to have  "fresh eyes" look at the evidence & form an independent conclusion. rkay accepted.
Meanwhile Have faith, goNgo  & foghorn had been pming occasionally with questions & info pertaining to Jackie. At some point, these 4 formed the JE crew & spent hours discussing the details of the case as they unfolded & were posted, mainly by rkay. Lots of open discussion on the thread, but some info was with held for obvious reasons & much of it was "brainstorming".
As time went by, I also introduced myself to the forum & though I had little of value to offer, other than memories. At some point both Chick & I were added to the crew. There was no prerequisite, it just so happened that each person had a natural talent but more importantly a genuine devotion to seeking answers for Jackie. I myself, offered little, other than having the surname of English & finally the determination, to stick with the "twists & turns".
 The group was able to process my thought patterns because they KNEW the facts, inside & out so it became easier to discuss the case without having, each time to return to square 1. It has been difficult to talk about Jackie's murder because there are so very many strange & bizarre occurrences & often in the past, people tend to become overwhelmed & frustrated by the complexity. These people did not....they knew their material & spent hours researching material, & digging for answers.
Each & every single lead, provided by numerous posters, offering their piece of info was followed up on. These posters, over the course of pming with crew members went on eventually to give their identities, were vetted & mostly visited by 2 or more of us. Not a single lead/tip was not acknowledged & followed up on. At the appropriate time, each person providing the info we received from them, allowed their name & tip to be  hand delivered to the OPP & handed over to be followed up, & always with the tipsters blessing & permission.
The JE crew, is far too modest, so I won't go into their particular talents & the lengths they went to, the hours & hours of assistance & meetings they attended to only seek answers for Jackie, but each & every one of them will be held in the highest esteem in my heart for the remainder of my lifetime. These people came together, stuck together & are prepared to go where ever we need to go to seek justice. They are rkay, havefaith, gongo, foghorn & chickapey.
DB was looked at & the similarities were noted, in fact ( havefaith openly questions his position) but I wrongly assumed that LE had done their due diligence & eliminated him. Not a single tip came in regarding him. Ninerfan posted interesting info & although pm's were sent, no response was ever received. We had hoped ninerfan could provide more info about DB.
The crew decided Jackie's walk, if made public might just bring recollections & info to the forefront as well as the primary purpose, to honour & remember Jackie.
Well from there, you now know what happened & perhaps why we are right here today.
WITHOUT....every single person (this includes each of you that has had input of any kind) & the support & encouragement from everyone, the outcome would not have been as positive as it is.
To each & everyone, thank you is inadequate, but truly, truly Jackie would not have the attention & the possibility of becoming a "solved Case" had you not devoted yourselves as you did.
We didn't solve the case, & we don't care. Our goal was to see Jackie's case solved & hopefully we may get that, sooner than later.
Dennis Alsop Sr. & Jr. are true heroes
JE crew amazing & God sent.

To all the people who came forward to offer their assistance & tips, you are brave & special people & your help will always be remembered with gratitude.

To all the regular posters & members, your support, comments & genuine interest is always encouraging.

To Debbie & the UC, this forum has not only been a blessing for keeping our loved ones alive but a place we can go & share our stories freely, without judgment & find empathy.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 23, 2014, 04:42:36 PM
Thank you Chick...I had an awful time but finally did manage to get it posted...lol there you were. Always helping me! Thanks x
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on March 23, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
Quote
To Debbie & the UC, this forum has not only been a blessing for keeping our loved ones alive but a place we can go & share our stories freely, without judgment & find empathy.

Thank you Anne. It's the many caring and hard working people who make this forum what it is.   

For the last few years I have had the privilege of watching this group of dedicated and caring members who have come to be known as the "crew" (rkay, havefaith, gongo, foghorn, chickapey & jesa (Anne). It has never ceased to amaze me how all of you have worked together as a team, both on Jackie's case, and others. You are an inspiration to us all.

Debbie
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on March 23, 2014, 07:14:10 PM
And, please, let's not forget Jeb.  Jeb has done soooo much research over the years. He lost his beloved sister and very close friend. Jeb fed us all clues and pieces of his research. He put up with those of us, particularly people like myself, who suddenly appeared on the scene without much context. I personally would like to thank Jeb for his patience....his intelligence...his research...and, most importantly, his dedication to his sister Jackie.

I have had the good fortune to have met Jesa over the past couple of years.  What a wonderful advocate she has been for her sister as well. And to think that Jackie had such wonderful, caring siblings simply blows my mind.

Jeb and Jesa, Jackie was truly blessed to have such wonderful siblings. More than forty years later and you are both standing up for her.

Hugs to both of you.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 23, 2014, 07:27:33 PM
Thank you so much gongo. I agree. Jeb has always had Jackie foremost in his heart & has worked her case for decades. Jackie would be proud as am I.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on March 23, 2014, 08:58:59 PM
Thank you so much gongo. I agree. Jeb has always had Jackie foremost in his heart & has worked her case for decades. Jackie would be proud as am I.

I didn't realize that Jeb had done such a large amount of research on Jackie's case! My apologies, certainly not meaning to leave anyone out. I commend you for all you've done also, Jeb.

Jackie is blessed to have a great brother and sister who continue to fight for justice for her.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 23, 2014, 09:20:45 PM
Thank you Debbie....for your kindness. Jeb had amassed most of the facts far, far ahead of us & directed Rkay, frequently to find the info.
Another mention, perhaps, although very unimportant to the grand scheme & our goal, was that rkay then took the film crew to all the places mentioned & provided the producers with his (rkays) pictures, retrieved from archives. All coordinates were given by rkay as well.
rkay was filmed doing this but this did not become part of the episode.
Chickapey gave us the photo of the old Met Store at Treasure Island Plaza & located Marilyn, just prior to the filming.
As I mentioned...WITHOUT everone's participation, we wouldn't possibly be where we are.
All this was given to Ocean before filming but only to redirect the team if they needed help.
I am also grateful to Ocean Entertainment for the opportunity to present all the years of research & see how wonderfully they presented Jackie's case.
As well as their forensic solutions, which we could never be able to do.
Ocean Entertainment did a great job...getting everything presented & out there, & most importantly narrowing down the prime suspect.
We were able to provide so much info...& they were able to do the testing we were not able to do as well as reach the viewers.
Dr. Mike provided us with his knowledge, which was invaluable. Mike is an intelligent, hardworking, dedicated cop who truly was determined to do his utmost to follow these cases as far as he could.
OPP are the only one's that appear to be doing nothing to assist.

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on March 24, 2014, 07:00:15 AM
Perhaps LE are resentful, and a bit envious that dedicated individuals researched it, and gave it to an ex cop.

 Congratulations to all of those involved. Your perseverance is astonishing!!

The police have had years to solve this, and it still sits - and they will still say - "it is under investigation". Ha
They do that with all of their cases from coast to coast. 

Social media is becoming more prominent, and families who have waited for years and years are fed up!!
TCAK is long overdue.  I hope it continues for many years, as we have too many cases that have been forgotten.

Here is another documentary soon to be released on the Highway of Tears  (posted by Alder)
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=6351.msg108798;topicseen#msg108798
This to my mind, should never take away from the dedication of the RCMP's E-Pana. The special and active task force set up for the Highway of Tears.

jb



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 24, 2014, 07:45:57 AM
I just saw that OPP have had the show's findings for well over two months. What's the hold up? Ok so someone screwed up, someone didn't have the technology at the time, someone missed something, project angel was a lot of smoke and mirrors.. whatever. This is a new day and the opp need to swallow their pride and accept the help given them. They need to start sharing information and vice versa with the city police. unreal that they are sitting on this
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 24, 2014, 07:51:55 AM
She knows his name.

She knows his face.

Now, Jackie English’s sister wants the OPP to get on board and investigate the findings of a celebrity sleuth’s probe into the London teen’s homicide four decades ago that points to a ­convicted killer as the prime suspect.

“We’re not going away. We deserve some answers,” Anne English-Cremers said after the airing Saturday of To Catch A Killer, which profiled her sister’s death.

“And the poor little kids that were killed certainly deserve that,” she said referring to the string of unsolved cold case murders in the London area during the 1960s and ’70s.

The head of the OPP’s ­criminal investigations branch said ­Sunday investigators continue to probe the case and were aware of the show’s contents.

“I want to assure the family as well as the general public . . . — in this matter as in any other matter — the OPP will follow all leads and tips and make use of all information. If there is a new lead, we will make use of it,” said Det.-Supt. Dave Truax.

“We certainly sympathize with the families and friends of ­victims of unsolved homicides, and the challenge and frustration is that we cannot share the results of the investigation . . .

“It would be wrong to assume that because we have not talked publicly about a lead in an investigation it has not been investigated,” he added.

Truax said investigators welcome the publicity swirling around To Catch A Killer.

“Bringing an investigation forward in this forum, though many many years have passed, may certainly elicit someone’s memory to come forward with information that may be very pertinent to this investigation,” Det.-Supt. Truax said.

The Oprah Winfrey Network show, the brainchild of London police and Western University professor Mike Arntfield, revealed a man named “David” who had a home base west of Tillsonburg fits the profile of who killed English, 15, in October 1969. He was convicted of non-capital murder in the 1970s and doesn’t live in the area.

The full name and details about his crime were obscured in the show for legal reasons.

A report by the civilian investigators leaked to The Free Press links English’s slaying with the deaths of Lynda White, 19, who vanished in 1968 and Soraya O’Connell, 15, who vanished in 1970.

The report suggests the person responsible was a sexually motivated serial killer with an attraction to corpses who was willing to travel long distances and may have kept souvenirs of his slayings.

The killer also would deposit personal belongings in various locations far away from the eventual spots where the bodies were found.

The starting point for the investigators was the discovered memoirs of a deceased OPP officer Dennis Alsop, who led the investigations and was bothered that they were never solved.

English-Cremers said she was shocked when “David” was revealed to her by Arntfield and his team to be the main suspect.

She and a small group of amateur sleuths dedicated to solving English’s killing were aware of the man and noticed similarities in the cases.

“You would have figured the police would have looked at him and would have somehow eliminated him (as a suspect),” English-Cremers said.

It’s not the first time she has been confused by the OPP’s conduct about her sister’s death. Over decades she was told little of progress in the investigation. “‘It’s none of my business” is the feeling I get,” she said.

“They want you to go away.”

The “lame excuse” she was routinely given by the OPP was “this is an open case.”

“That’s basically their answer for everything they don’t have to answer to,” she said.

“At 16, I understand why you did it. But I’m 60 years old and I can handle it.”

The OPP said late last week that the case is still open but that Arntfield’s show had no connection to the their probe. On Sunday, Truax said Arntfield has never contacted the OPP about his findings in the English case, nor has Ocean Entertainment.

The show compared a police sketch from witnesses who saw a man in the Metropolitan store where English was a server with a photo of “David” — and revealed significant similarities.

A geographic profile plotted important places related to the English investgation and the solved murder with some surprising links.

English, 15, was abducted from the Wellington Rd. bridge over Hwy. 401 on Oct. 4, 1969, after she left work at the restaurant in the Treaure Island Mall. Her naked body was found four days later in Big Otter Creek near Tillsonburg.

Her torn clothing and brown penny loafers were found many kilometres from the body.

Also included in the show was an examination of English’s diary.

English-Cremers had retrieved the personal reflections of her sister from the OPP in November 2012. They had seized the diary as evidence in 1969.

The writings reminded her how “tough things were” when they were young and how hard her sister worked.

“I’m glad I have it,” she said.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on March 24, 2014, 08:34:41 AM
Huge thanks to Jane Sims of the LFP for her 3 investigative articles...fantastic!  Now if only we could get the OPP to assign a detective who knows what's going on to answer her questions honestly, we might feel we're getting somewhere!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: D1 on March 24, 2014, 12:45:25 PM
The pressure will mount on the OPP folowing all that publicity.. Will it be enough to force them into action? I'm sure many are watching for what happens next here. The OPP are making noise in response but.. they have kept all their cards secret for all these decades, can that be changed? At some point no matter what they do, it becomes too little too late. They have cloistered all the information and evidence away from being able to be used by any other agency or party to solve the murder for all this time. No one really knows what they have done with the information and evidence they have. I doubt they want that known either. It may be a fine line one has to walk to get them to really do more testing and not just play lip service in the media for internal motives. This may be a bit embarrassing for them. jmo
 
Quote
“Bringing an investigation forward in this forum, though many many years have passed, may certainly elicit someone’s memory to come forward with information that may be very pertinent to this investigation,” Det.-Supt. Truax said.

In some ways this sounds like Police posturing and they are saying that was all well and good but its not enough, we need more.. As if they are already minimizing what DNA could provide. Is confirmation of testing possible? The episode on Donna Awcock did show that confirmation of past testing was possible, but new?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 24, 2014, 01:25:29 PM
Donna Awcock's sister has said the detective on her case hasn't even watched her show. In addition to them having the information for over two months now, I'd say that's pretty pathetic.
Jane Sims has done some fantastic articles but let's hope she's not done. I think this is the perfect opportunity for the families and interested people to get together and approach the OPP as one group.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: D1 on March 24, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
It may take something along those lines to make meaningful headway. You are challenging the entire Police model of investigations and information handling here. I think it is long overdue but it is entrenched and may take a very big hammer to change it. This is the perfect opportunity. If it can turn into something akin to a class action, it can't be ignored. The team has done wonders. Everyone is watching with high hopes..
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on March 24, 2014, 09:26:52 PM


Reporter Jane Sims from the London Free Press is all over it.   ;D

"Not only did the OPP know a reality TV show was sniffing around a 1969 cold case London murder, but they were suspicious how the celebrity sleuth — a part-time London police officer — was getting his goods on the case.

In a letter to London police chief Brad Duncan last fall, OPP Det. Insp. Tracy Dobbin said she was “unsettled” how London Const. Mike Arntfield, the brainchild of the series To Catch a Killer, was able to tell the sister of Jackie English three “accurate” names of persons of interest in the case involving the 15-year-old.

In the Oct. 30 letter, Dobbin — the OPP’s case manager for the homicide — also wrote she was “interested in obtaining the information and making an assessment of its value.” She requested “appropriate action.”

Arntfield, who doubles as a Western University professor, over the weekend broke a new theory on his show on the Oprah Winfrey Network pointing to a convicted killer named “David” as the likely suspect for the 1969 slaying of English, a case still under OPP investigation.

The show’s conclusions followed a review of personal memoirs found in the basement of a late OPP officer who had probed the unsolved murders of English and others — information that should already be in OPP files, and through modern investigative techniques applied to old clues.

The head of the OPP’s criminal investigation branch, Det. Supt Dave Truax, has maintained Arnt­field never contacted the OPP about his findings in the case, nor did the show’s production company.

Monday, Arntfield said no only did the OPP know of his team’s findings, but also “their initial response was to get their backs up and in the same amount of time it would take to test (the suspect’s) DNA, composed a letter to the chief in London that I was hijacking their case.”

London police confirm the force received Dobbin’s letter, but because of privacy laws “we cannot disclose details of personnel issues,” Const. Ken Steeve.
 

Truax wouldn’t comment on the letter, either, referring questions to London police.

“I’m not going to comment on the conduct of a London police officer,” he said.

Truax reiterated what he’s said before — the OPP wasn’t given a report of the show’s findings, only “an outline of their show.”

“The major case manager of this investigation has not received any report from Ocean Entertainment or Mike Arntfield,” he said.

“The major case manager of the investigation has received no such report.”

That’s not what Arntfield and the producers of To Catch A Killer say happened in early February, when they sent the 16-page report to the investigators.

The first page gives background on the series. The rest goes into detail and ultimately identifies a convicted murderer as the prime suspect in three unsolved London-area homicides, including English’s, and suggests there was a serial sex killer with an erotic attraction to corpses.

The show identified the man as “David,” obscuring other details for legal reasons.

It suggested Lynda White, 19, who vanished in 1968 and whose remains were found in 1973 and Soraya O’Connell, who disappeared in 1970 and whose body was found in 1974, were killed by the same person.

“The report was sent to three individuals including an inspector overseeing the investigation,” said Sonya Jampolsky, Ocean Entertainment’s vice-president of development.

She said the company sent the full report to the OPP and wanted to maintain a good relationship with the force and readily hand over their findings “hoping they will act on it if they can, because we all want convictions.”

She said there are officers who know what the show came up with and the report “is not unknown to them.”

Truax said he said he can appreciate families in the cold cases are frustrated by the lack of information flowing from the investigations, but added “any unsolved case is considered open and they are not closed until they are solved.”

“Our goal is to conclude the investigation to bring it to prosecution and at that point in the prosecution phase, then it becomes a matter of public record,” he said.

Asked if the OPP had investigated “David,” he wouldn’t comment.

“I cannot speak to a specific investigation and I appreciate that the family would be frustrated with that,” he said."

jane.sims@sunmedia.ca


jane.sims@sunmedia.ca
http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/24/did-tv-show-share-report-with-cops-opp-brass-mum-if-force-investigated-david (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/24/did-tv-show-share-report-with-cops-opp-brass-mum-if-force-investigated-david)


Modified to correct a date.  Hf
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 24, 2014, 09:48:55 PM
wow... thank you for posting this , Havefaith.

Are they interested in solving these cases or having a pi&&ing contest between police outlets? Hijacking their case? They need to remember why they are working in the law enforcement area and get their egos in check
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 25, 2014, 01:38:30 AM
Thanks.....We are all behind you in your quest for the truth. 

Seems to me the Police do not like it when the "general public" is made aware of all the Unsolved murders.....well they need to realize there is many many Canadians waiting for JUSTICE.  We want our Police to solve crimes.

This London group, Mike Arntfield and his crew as well as reporter Jane Sims have given me hope that these crimes will be solved.

As well as wanting crimes to be solved, the public wants to see perps pay for their crimes. Which brings me to David. I wonder if David has kept his nose clean since coming out of jail....and how is he doing that, did he get major counselling/help?   
hmmmm.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on March 25, 2014, 05:47:46 AM
Thank you Jane Sims for staying on this. Please do not give up. It would be a shame to let the OPP take the easy route and simply hidden behind the "sorry, can't talk as it's an open investigation" wall that they always hide behind.

While I don't want to lose sight of the fact that there are some specifics of their investigation that they must keep private, they have been doing an absolutely terrible job of sharing broader information with the public to gain their confidence, and, worse yet, they treat the victims' families very poorly.  This case is 45 years cold (as are many of the others), and to simply say that they are working on it, and yet have not one thing to show for it does not breed confidence.

Policing methods and services have moved well beyond what they were back in the 60s and 70s, and it is time that the OPP began to embrace them. This includes considering the victims of crime (including the families).  And this does not mean, "there, there, thanks for the information, now go away".

This is an opportunity for the public to stand up and make it uncomfortable for the OPP to brush off these cold cases and brush off anyone who tries to help on cases that they clearly have not been able to solve.  If the suspected perpetrator is deceased, then they can say that that is the case and that is why they are not pursuing it (and then share a few more details with the family).  If the suspected perpetrator incarcerated on other charges, then give that explanation.  Silence and defensiveness look like 'face-saving' manoeuvres.



Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 25, 2014, 07:45:10 AM
Just to mention Havefaith, that in Reply #688 the date that Soraya went missing is wrong, in case you want to change it. The year is listed as 1979 instead of 1970.

All this new info has me thinking about the Unsolved murder of Audrey Gleave (Lynden/Hamilton)....we are lead to believe her killer took a body part as a souvenier.....which in my opinion points to a sexually sadistic killer.
Arntfield's report suggests there was a serial killer with an erotic attraction to corpses, which like I said, made me think of Audrey as well.

I agree chickapey, some members of the (London) Unsolved may have missed their calling...awesome work. When I watch To Catch a Killer I wish I was part of the team..;)....I totally enjoy the geographical profiling...it is an important part of investigating, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on March 25, 2014, 08:17:21 AM
Thanks Jobo--I agree it is pretty hard to go missing in 1979 and have the body found in 1974.  I'll send the reporter a note.  When I copied this article from the LFP it somehow repeated a few paragraphs--I think it was linked somehow to a side article.  After two attempts, I just left it in, in case I deleted anything relevant.  It's hard working with the little window when copying a lengthy piece.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on March 25, 2014, 01:20:41 PM
So now the OPP are denying that they received any reports from Mike Arntfield and they are trying to discredit him.  I stand by Dr. Mike.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 25, 2014, 03:10:31 PM
I agree Galaxy Girl. Why would the show lie? On the other hand, the police have plenty to not be fully truthful with. This must be a small indication of the frustration the families have had over the years
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: tweetie on March 25, 2014, 06:12:29 PM
I am new to the site and from london and have followed these cases for a while.  After watching the show Saturday night it prompted me to do some further reading and research. I find it very interesting that russell Johnson worked in talbotville which is just south of london and his spree started in 1969.  I also found that Alexander kalichuk who Is believed to have killed Lynn Harper lived on the base in aylmer Ontario from 1957 to 1965.  Then we have David who had the connection to aylmer. Given the number of murders in london during the60's and 70s it seems like the 3 of these people could have committed these crimes or in the case of David and Alex kalichuk could they have been involved together in the English murder.  Seems like a lot of coincidences
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on March 26, 2014, 07:08:24 AM
Hi, welcome tweetie.   There is many more unsolved in the London area from that time....if you go onto our main board and look under Ontario/London you will see all the threads for these victims.  Both Kalichuk and Johnson's names have been mentioned as POI's.
Very sad to thing there was at least 3 serial predators around London at that time and many unsolved murders.

That show To Catch a Killer, with Mike Arntfield and crew is much appreciated...maybe some of these families will finally get answers.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on March 28, 2014, 04:34:23 PM
A comment letter from Dennis Alsop Jr. just posted online by the LFP:

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/28/vox-pop-no-apologies-for-providing-a-bit-of-peace (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/28/vox-pop-no-apologies-for-providing-a-bit-of-peace)

Well said, Dennis!  Thanks for stepping forward and thanks for caring about the families.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on March 28, 2014, 05:07:00 PM
I have copied and pasted his letter.  In time this link will be lost.  It is too precious to lose. Mr. Alsop Jr. shows great courage and compassion.
Thanks goNgo for keeping us uptodate.

No apologies for providing a bit of peace    



Dennis Alsop Jr., Special to QMI Agency

 Friday, March 28, 2014 1:39:19 EDT PM

I realize that I have become involved in some old OPP cold cases that basically are none of my business. I have come to realize that by doing so I may have given some hope to families who have lost a loved one to a cold-blooded killer and have never seen those cases resolved.

The reality is that some of these cases will never be resolved unless there is a death-bed confession, and history has shown this to be very unlikely.

The diaries of my late father, a retired OPP detective, provided information which, after hours of deliberation and torment, I decided to share with immediate family members of the young victims.

There was the family who thought their sister had been beaten to a pulp; the family who had to listen to rumours that their sister/niece was a prostitute and deserved what she got, when the memoirs say nothing of the sort; and the family of a boy whose father died believing he had somehow failed his son.

The families were very grateful for a candid glimpse into the final hours of their loved one. They had suffered guilt and despair for about 45 years, blaming themselves for not protecting their family member. The facts, from these diaries, gave grieving families some relief.

For this, I felt I had provided some much needed peace. For this, I don’t apologize.

After my father passed away in January 2012, I couldn’t wait to get my hands on his diaries, which I knew were in the basement. While he was alive, they were off limits, as he adhered strictly to the rule that OPP cases are discussed only with OPP.

These diaries did not disappoint. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn the scope of his very demanding and interesting career with the OPP. Most cases had a crime, investigation and trial.

The enjoyable part about reading these diaries is that they had only facts, no opinions, no suggestions. They were like reading a history book where the author does not try to promote their own conclusion, which is a scarce commodity.

My father also left some fascinating memoirs on cases he worked on through his career, both solved and unsolved. Both my brother and I were never aware of them, but I assure you my father knew they were there. Until he passed away, his mind was always as sharp as a tack. It is my opinion that he left them there for a purpose.

At first I didn’t know what to do with them. I tried to put them in archives but learned they would be locked up for 100 years. As a student of history, I like to know what really happened in the history I lived, so this was not an option to me.

I also knew you just can’t call people out of the blue, but the reality is I could have.

When Anne English took her walk in memory of her slain sister Jackie a year and half ago, I could tell that she was still grieving even after 44 years. I offered to show her what the OPP tried, what they looked at, but I did not offer her a solution as there was none. For the most part there were no solutions for any of the cases in my father’s diaries.

After meeting with Anne, I learned a couple of things: First, there is no closure for these types of cases and, second, the families involved in these unsolved murders network with each other, and for the most part are not happy with the answers they receive from the OPP,

You can understand why these families have been quick to gravitate to Mike Arntfield, a London police officer and Western University professor who studies cold cases. He might not be able to close a case, but his team has brought forth information that families were not aware of.

All the families want and deserve is some honesty. They are tired of the pat answers. If it can’t be closed, tell them. If it can be solved, do it. Use all the tools available, both external and internal. The process is not important, the result is.

As you can imagine I have had many sleepless nights, but I have been guided by a quote from a London Free Press article dated Dec. 24, 1969, in which Chief Insp. James McBride states, “When it comes to murder, the gloves are off. We are after a killer and if we hurt someone’s feeling in our effort to get him . . .” and the statement trails off as investigators scurry in and out of the make-do homicide office.

Dennis Alsop Jr. is a London resident.





Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: SAP on March 29, 2014, 09:14:34 AM
What a wonderfully blessed gesture of compassion, Dennis Alsop Jr. Mr. Arntfield and crew as well. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: tweetie on March 30, 2014, 07:03:11 AM
What street did Jackie English live on when she disappeared?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 30, 2014, 08:19:44 AM
HI Tweetie... she lived on Kent St. I think there is a modern apartment and parking garage there now
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: FactHunter on March 30, 2014, 11:17:39 AM
Is there any chance that someone could please post Jackie's TCAK episode somewhere online?  I've searched all the usual websites to no avail and am really looking forward to seeing the episode. 

My love to the English family.  So glad that your years of not giving up hope may finally soon be rewarded!  A huge thanks to Mr. Alsop for reaching out. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on March 30, 2014, 01:50:59 PM
Don't get the OWN channel? To Catch A Killer Season 1 is now available for advance purchase on iTunes!
https://itunes.apple.com/ca/tv-season/to-catch-a-killer-season-1/id834452604
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: DCAK on March 30, 2014, 01:54:01 PM
Please find a link below to TCAK's airing schedule.  Jackie's episode will be featured again in April and May.

http://ownca.oprah.com/Shows/To-Catch-A-Killer/Schedule.aspx
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on March 30, 2014, 03:49:31 PM
"Hi GG.....just wanted you to know that I have not forgotten your assistance with Jackie's & the others cases. People like you truly make a difference to us. You went above & beyond & I am so very appreciative.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart" x Jesa

This is part of a private message that I received yesterday from Jackie's sister, Jesa.  I am sharing it now (with Jesa's permission) because I want everyone to realize how appreciative the victim's families are for any help we can give to them. Please don't hold back - whether you heard rumours once or you just have a hunch about one of the killers please don't be afraid to share this with the families. Your idea might be the one piece that solves the puzzle and it could be the one tip that could solve the case.     
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on March 30, 2014, 08:18:29 PM
Here is one website for research that may help if it is necessary to find someone.         http://www.locatefamily.com/
Look at the alphabet letters across the top.  Then follow the pages until the correct one is reached and there is the list of names and the cities they live in.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chelsea.guy on April 02, 2014, 10:24:37 AM
Good day all.i have a a question for jeb that only he can answer. did your sister hitchhike a lot you did say A the last two years that you two were very close.see im bugged by her and the other jackies murders.the only car i would get into is a police car.and thats why im bugged by this.mh has said your sister and her talk to two guys that looked like police or were police around vic park i believe.the other jackie samething mite have gotten into a car.im stuck on unmarked police cars.anyway jeb can you answer this please?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: judebegin on April 15, 2014, 08:40:34 PM
Hello:

This is my first post on this board. Firstly, I want to extend my sympathies to Jesa and Jeb and all the family members on this board who have lost a loved one.

I became a reader of this board about a year ago. After extensively reading through the many Ontario threads I consequently became aware that TCAK was doing a show investigating some of Ontario's cold cases.  I have watched all of the episodes so far and I think that the TCAK team is doing a good job of shining a light back on these cases.

In regards to Jackie's episode I thought the segment about where Jackie was found in Otterville to be very informative and well done by Renee. The fact that a drop from the bridge was improbable was interesting.  The fact that the location was really not that isolated certainly does seem to suggest that the killer, or killers wanted Jackie to be found and I think that they knew that location very well and it was not a random pick.

Judebegin
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 17, 2014, 03:48:20 PM
HAPPY 60th Jackie....xx
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 17, 2014, 04:48:24 PM
Happy Birthday Jackie. We are never giving up!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on April 17, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
Thinking of Jackie and her family....on her 60th birthday.

Love and hugs to all.

Let's not let another year go by before this case is solved.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on April 17, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
To Jacqueline on your 60th; eternal peace
To jeb and jesa; condolences but also congratulations on your ongoing efforts and successes this past year
To the rest of us; keep digging, researching, trying, spreadsheeting and basically doing whatever else it takes to uncover the truth.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 17, 2014, 09:12:24 PM
Thinking of you Jackie on your 60th birthday.  I wish I could give you a big hug.  I hugged your sister instead and it was meant for both of you.  Thinking of Jeb and Jackie's family and close friends. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 17, 2014, 09:23:50 PM
Hello:

This is my first post on this board. Firstly, I want to extend my sympathies to Jesa and Jeb and all the family members on this board who have lost a loved one.

I became a reader of this board about a year ago. After extensively reading through the many Ontario threads I consequently became aware that TCAK was doing a show investigating some of Ontario's cold cases.  I have watched all of the episodes so far and I think that the TCAK team is doing a good job of shining a light back on these cases.


In regards to Jackie's episode I thought the segment about where Jackie was found in Otterville to be very informative and well done by Renee. The fact that a drop from the bridge was improbable was interesting.  The fact that the location was really not that isolated certainly does seem to suggest that the killer, or killers wanted Jackie to be found and I think that they knew that location very well and it was not a random pick.

Judebegin

Welcome to UC judebegin.  I agree with your observations, and I also think that the TCAK team is doing a great service on behalf of these unsolved cases.  I'm glad to see that you got your feet wet with your first post, and hope that you continue to be involved and add your comments on the forum.   :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 19, 2014, 07:53:41 AM
 https://flic.kr/p/ncp8vd (https://flic.kr/p/ncp8vd)

I hope this works. This is just a shot of the overpass.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on April 21, 2014, 05:10:59 PM
Thanks for this, chick.

Are those black posts lights?  It would be nice to know how dark it was on the overpass.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 21, 2014, 07:58:55 PM
I can't see any on the approach or bridge itself but it must have been quite dark with the only light coming from the poles at high way level
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on April 22, 2014, 05:11:59 AM
For more information on sex crimes in the Aylmer area, a web search    of "  Father's Touch , Donald D'Haene"        with yahoo or google provides too many links to list .
www.fatherstouch.com/About.htm   - takes you to Donald's site with more links and information about his book

http://watchtower.org.pl/forum/topic/6276-donald-d%26-8217%3Bhaene-%26-8220%3Bfather%26-8217%3Bs-touch%26-8221%3B/  -  an article in the JW  Watchtower in a different language but this quote is in  English -     "Cytat: Papa is worried Ronny will tell. “Don’t you dare to tell Mama about this. I gave you life and I can take it away.”

www.huffingtonpost.ca/donald-dhaene/family-secrets_b_3089446.html  -article written by Donald D'Haene in the Huffington Post April 17, 2013

There are interesting links from the author's blog, including a letter from his father, the convicted abuser who was living with his fifth wife and more children in the Philippines.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 22, 2014, 07:05:04 AM
What stands out to me in some of the links  you provided Elsie, is the JW belief in having two witnesses accuse the person (they use a bible quote to support this) in order for them to believe the act actually happened.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on April 22, 2014, 07:25:52 AM
The dead can give evidence.  I wonder if that counts, according to scriptures?
When a group has policies that shelter wrong doing, some people may join for that reason alone..and JW is not the only group that protected wrong doers, as the news has told us.   We ask why people don't come forward with evidence and we could also ask why organizations often are not investigated when evidence point their way.

Let's hope that the TV series has roused interest in these cases for police forces as well as the general public.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on April 23, 2014, 12:26:55 PM
Unfortunate news that TCAK has not been renewed for another season, just announced on its Facebook page.  Too  bad there are many other cases that need looking into but we can be thankful that at least this season was aired.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 24, 2014, 05:22:15 AM
I agree Freeman however, there is still hope if they get enough support. If not, there are more tv stations that could pick it up.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 24, 2014, 11:47:24 AM
Although I know zip about marketing a TV series, I would love to see "To Catch A Killer" shown on a regular Ontario station that is offered in a basic cable package.  Many people do not get the OWN (Oprah) channel and have to pay extra.  The optimum audience would be viewers from Ontario and across Canada.  Wouldn't it be great if the CBC picked it up?   :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on April 24, 2014, 05:32:58 PM
I agree totally with Have Faith.  We need an established Canadian network, cable, to carry this series.

It is desperately needed. There would have to be some professional tweeking here and there to capture a full audience across our country, but that is highly doable with a decent cash flow. And to produce -- requires money.

An excellent and very caring group have stepped forward on behalf of many families with unsolved murders, (TCAK), and it is about time that Canadian TV networks supports them.

Our cold cases have been left in the shadows for far too long.

TCAK, I will certainly watch your re-runs, and all of the best to you in your quest.

And as a viewer------ THANK YOU TCAK for everything. I sincerely hope that your series is picked up by a Canadian Network!

Jellybean. :)

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Ron on April 27, 2014, 08:40:12 PM
I came across this article about the London murders. Wasn't sure where to post it, but here it is.

                            http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/11/as-many-as-five-serial-killers-who-operated-in-london-ontario-may-still-be-alive-and-free-new-book-says/
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: judebegin on April 30, 2014, 01:16:45 PM
Thank you for welcoming me to the board Have Faith.

I have watched the Lynda White episode which I also thought was well done.  I think that TCAK has been doing a great job pointing to a prime suspect and linking some of these London area cold cases together.  It must be difficult to try to cover so many aspects of a case in just an hour show.  I too hope that they are picked up by an Ontario based network so that a wider audience can be reached.

I hope that the board does not mind if I ask a question that I have been wondering about.  I have noticed that in multiple other cases when the body was found the identities of who found the bodies were revealed.  In the cases of Helga Beer, Frankie Jensen and Bruce Leishman the finders were identified.  Georgia Jackson was found on land by the landowners and in Jacqueline Dunleavy's case the boys who came forward were it seemed briefly considered suspects.  In Jackie's case the articles I read used the statement "police refused to divulge their names".  In other articles I have read different terminology if someone wished to remain anonymous.  Can anyone shed any light on this? I apologize if this has been brought up before and I missed it.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on May 02, 2014, 02:13:51 PM

I recall being very surprised that people's identities were routinely publicized by the media in the 1960's and early 70's.  Even children were identified, with no thought given to the killer(s) possibly reading the paper.

I don't know why the people who found Jackie's body were not identified.  I can guess, and say that they probably learned a lesson from the media attention given the three boys who found Jackie Dunlevy's body.  Just a guess.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on May 05, 2014, 09:59:40 AM
Hello.  I'm a long time reader of this site and this thread but a first time poster.

Jesa posted a couple years ago and this is cut from it ----

-My family moved in Sept. & apparently Jackie did not enrol in Beal & yet my mother drove her & waited for her & thought she had. Marilyn Hird had switched from Clarke Side Road to Beal that year, but transferred back the following year. Det. Alsop told me a woman residing @ 133, when later questioned by police said she never realized Jackie had moved, as she was there daily & hanging her bathing suit on the line


Was there a public swimming pool in old south London?  It just seems interesting that there is a picture of the OPP officer in the gravel pit/swimming hole where her shoes were located and beside him you can see the makeshift diving board that the locals have made in the swimming hole.  Seems a long way to go for a swim tho.

JWM
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on May 05, 2014, 04:55:53 PM
Hi John.....turns out that there were actually three independent reports of Jackie with a swimsuit & towel. The only swimming pool that I know of at that time of year would be the pool at H.B. Beal Secondary School. Jackie not being a registered student makes me question if she was swimming there???? On Friday Oct. 3/69..... Jackie got off a bus at the corner of Maitland & Dundas St. & headed south. H.B. Beal is between Maitland & William St. on Dundas St. The OPP have had this info since the two individuals provided this in 1969. Interesting....that was a PD day for the high school. GREAT QUESTION! Thank you for your post.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 07, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
On a PA day then school would still be open so maybe she met a friend there. I'll check and see if you required to show a student card before swimming or if you could just go in. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 08, 2014, 10:07:41 AM
Just checked... no ID needed at that time to use the pool and it was open to the students even on weekends so a PD day would be no issue.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 08, 2014, 10:15:51 AM
Just a note back to John Wilson Murray re: the picture that shows a police officer looking at a Jackie's shoe, with the pond and diving board in the background.  I don't think that anyone believes that Jackie was recreationally swimming in this gravel pit pool east of Aylmer.  As you note, it quite far from her home, and also the temperature would not be favourable.  The picture, instead, shows where Jackie's shoe was found.  Several articles of her clothing were located in different locations east of Aylmer - and west of Otterville where her body was found.  The shoe, therefore is evidence related to the crime, rather than an article of clothing left behind by someone visiting the gravel pool for a swim.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 08, 2014, 03:21:41 PM
I agree Declan (and welcome btw) Besides, gravel pit swimming was more a boy's thing from what I've heard... bathing suits optional and always in summer
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on May 09, 2014, 09:31:30 AM
There is nothing more important than a cold case investigator and a media reporter who have the heart and soul to make the effort to solve cases.  I wanted to honour two fine examples.

Hats off to Toronto Det.-Sgt. Brian Borg who has shown the determination, empathy and resourcefulness in an attempt to crack these cases.

Likewise, hats off to Jane Sims, LFP reporter (who has worked tirelessly on the London cases) on winning the Feature Writer award and being named runner-up in the Journalist of the Year category.


http://www.lfpress.com/2014/05/08/toronto-cops-turn-to-twitter-to-help-solve-500-cold-case-murders (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/05/08/toronto-cops-turn-to-twitter-to-help-solve-500-cold-case-murders)

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/05/04/london-free-press-journalists-win-three-categories-at-ontario-newspaper-awards (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/05/04/london-free-press-journalists-win-three-categories-at-ontario-newspaper-awards)

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 12, 2014, 11:43:15 AM
In the To Catch a Killer episode which reviewed the case investigation for Jackie's murder, the investigative team visited the Cornell Rd. Bridge spanning the Otter Creek and decided that the killer must have carried Jackie's body down the steep embankment and placed her in the water.   This would require that the killer parked his car along the bridge and carried Jackie down a very steep hill (unless police discovered drag marks) and then entered the creek to place her body there.  He would have then emerged, wet, and re-entered his car.  The killer would have risked having his car noted there (although it was likely nighttime), and this would be very suspicious to happen upon at night time.  Also, if at night, the killer would have had to descend the steep embankment in darkness.  Given the lines of sight along Cornell Rd, and the intersection with Furnace Rd, this is not really an "out of the way"location.  The possibility of another car coming along would exist, and the overall time that the killer would have spent here, to descend the embankment with her body would at least be a few minutes.

An alternate possiblity might be to look at a farmer's lane that exists from Furnace Road.  The laneway travels towards Otter Creek, and runs alongside what appears to be a junkyard (some derelict car bodies).  The laneway continues heading in both directions as it reaches the creek - and might have been familiar to people who fished the creek (this creek was apparently a good fishing site) and/or interested in looking at old junk yards perhaps for scrap metal.   Use of this laneway, if the killer used it to reach the bridge area, would provide the killer with considerable cover and the killer would not have to descend a steep embankment with a body.   

We have generally assumed that the bridge on Cornell Rd was used by the killer, but the alternative might be worth an assessment.

Attachment 1 shows an aerial of the farmers lane that exits from Furnace Road.

Attachment 2 is a ground view of the farmers lane as it leaves Furnace Road (the bridge would be to the far right).
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on May 14, 2014, 07:31:24 AM
good thinking!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 14, 2014, 07:35:09 PM
You have done some excellent work Declan! I'm not a fan of talking about placement and that area but I wonder how far toward the bridge that road by the field goes? Was Jackie found right at the bridge and closer to which side? That area is confusing enough (in my opinion) with the use of google maps so someone would have to know the little areas like the back of their hand to know these spots back then
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 15, 2014, 05:47:57 PM
Furnace Road seems to intersect with Cornell Road at the east side of the bridge; it would be useful if someone from the area could determine whether the farmer's lane that exits Furnace road, and then runs alongside of the creek is "passable" and how close it gets to the creek itself.  Somehow, from the various pictures of police activity, posted on this site, is seems that police (with tracking dog) are emerging back onto Cornell Road on the south-west side of the bridge.  Whether this is a reflection of where Jackie was left is uncertain - but there was a post of the creek itself a while back, and it is not all that wide. 

The "severe blow to the head" of Jackie reminds me of what was in the article (posted by Freeman) of the severe blow to the head sustained by Georgia Jackson (although her cause of death is reported as smothering).  Given that Georgia's killer had bloody clothing (that he hid in a shed) and a car that required extensive cleaning, it sounds as if Georgia's injuries happened somewhere other than where her body was eventually found.  Will have to watch the TCAK show again to see how important this is - the similarity of the various cases in terms of the murder happening in one location and the victim then driven elsewhere, along with the nature of the victim's significant injuries.   

In the TCAK episodes, I can't recall any speculation about an "accomplice".  Yet, in Jackie's case there is certainly mention of two men talking to Jackie at her place of work...and two men who had given Jackie and Marilyn Hird a ride home the night before.  Re: Betty Harrison's attack...she also thought that there was an accomplice.   On a practical note - I still wonder about the challenge involved in moving a victim - perhaps lifting a victim from a car trunk.  Awful to think of, but it might raise the question of an accomplice.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on May 15, 2014, 08:55:39 PM
Very good question Declan. I too am convinced there was more than just one person responsible for Jackie's death. I am still searching for an accomplice & would very much like to contact ELAINE CROCKER. If any one knows of her whereabouts I would appreciate a pm to let me know her location. In the meantime we are searching every avenue.

NINERFAN....could you be of assistance? It would be greatly appreciated.

Declan....I am sure you are on track, especially if Jackie was not tossed off the bridge & there were no defensive wounds.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on May 15, 2014, 09:11:19 PM
Jackie had a photo of a young man placed in her diary.....I will try to have TCAK direct me to the facial recognition woman they used to see if there is a resemblance to the pic of D. I think there is but I am not trained for this science & I realize that it may just look similar through my eyes. Perhaps Chick would be good enough to post the picture here for me.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 15, 2014, 09:34:12 PM
The police drawing of one of the men noted by the Harrisons, talking to Jackie at her place of work is also quite interesting.   The description of "bushy hair" in particular.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 15, 2014, 10:01:31 PM
https://flic.kr/p/nkXZ5Z (https://flic.kr/p/nkXZ5Z)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 15, 2014, 10:02:16 PM
If someone could post this as the whole photo and not just the link, I'd appreciate it. I keep having issues
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on May 15, 2014, 10:52:43 PM
If someone could post this as the whole photo and not just the link, I'd appreciate it. I keep having issues

Taken from the link.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 19, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
It would be interesting to know what was considered as "bushy hair" in the late sixties.  Perhaps it is a bit different from today's description.  In the sixties was "bushy" anything other than a "brush cut"?    The pic of this young man in Jackie's diary has a hair style similar to Dave Papple's.  Seem to remember my brother having this same hair style about the same era - and my parents considered it "long" for the times, although it was in style.    However, the description of the man talking to Jackie at the coffee bar suggested that the hair style was "bushy", and the picture that as shown on TCAK of the man convicted of Georgia Jackson's murder depicts someone with a small forehead and exceptionally bushy hair even by today's standards.  Additionally, on the To Catch a Killer Show, there were a number of other facial similarities between Georgia Jackson's killer and the composite picture depicting the man seen at the coffee bar talking to Jackie.   It was interesting on the TCAK show that several potential suspects were initially considered (Marilyn Hird's brother, Dave Papple's brother) and then for different reasons no longer considered suspects;  the episode then focused on Georgia Jackson's killer - and the same conclusion was reached on another episode of TCAK when Lynda White's unsolved case was re-examined.  It would be interesting if the TCAK crew could re-examine the murder of Soraya O'Connell - which they have determined may be linked with the murder of Lynda White,  and Jackie English.  Perhaps there is something specific with her case which could make for an even stronger connection - and clues that could be used for advantage in solving the other cases as well. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on June 05, 2014, 08:12:13 AM
After looking at the photo again of the unknown young man, I wondered if anyone can tell where it was taken .  The location might give some clues.  Someone somewhere will know who he is -the question is how to make the connection. 
The only public information about Elaine Crocker/B... is on a voters' list -it only gives the address from the '60s.
If she remarried then it is difficult to find information.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Logical on June 05, 2014, 03:37:47 PM
It looks like a pier, a concrete dock, you can see the piece that you tie up the boat to the pier. And it appears he is holding a piece of thistle or something, looking romantic?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on June 05, 2014, 03:55:22 PM
I don't know much about boats and the pier.  so then what ports would have had a large pier and structure behind him ?  Port Stanley maybe?  I have only visited Grand Bend Sarnia or Port Stanley harbours in recent years so that time period is unfamiliar.  Would anyone else be familiar with different ports and harbours ?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on June 05, 2014, 07:04:49 PM
Regarding the photo of the young man--there is more detail that unfortunately did not appear in the above.
He seems to be sitting on steps to a front porch.  There are columns below him, on either side, which are topped with a large lion's head.  People have been looking for this house with the lion's heads for quite some time. 

Hopefully, a more complete photo can be uploaded. 

PS  Thank you Debbie for helping to upload this one. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on June 05, 2014, 08:58:00 PM
Is the building a private house or could it be a public building ?  Sometimes public buildings have lions as decoration or guardians.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 06, 2014, 01:49:27 PM
He looks Italian to me. The square brick columns behind him would be pretty distinctive I'd think. If Jackie's father was in Hamilton (sick in hospital) maybe it was there. Lots of Italians in Hamilton and large homes.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on June 06, 2014, 06:46:56 PM
Chickapea - Yes, there is very often lions heads outside of Italian Homes.  Very often one will see them on a brick column fence at the front of the home - with wrought iron gate.  He does not necessarily look Italian me, but he could be.
While I cannot make out a Lion's head - I am certain that what he is sitting on is made of marble. If you look at the ledge one can plainly see the marble pattern.
What is that triangular thing in front of him -  could that be a miniature sailboat?
Or could it be a kite?
I think if we have an idea as to what it is - it may give us a better idea as to where he is?

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: roisindubh on June 21, 2014, 08:18:11 PM
I keep thinking it might be a church but I don't know that churches ever have lions in front...a rectory perhaps?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on June 22, 2014, 12:20:58 AM
I've been snooping into buildings from that period which used marble etc. on the steps and entrances.  I've noticed that the hospitals and the university medical school used some marble.  http://www.london.ca/business/Planning-Development/secondary-plans/Documents/Old%20Victoria%20Hospital/Cultural-Heritage-Asssessment-South-Street-Hospital-Buildings.pdf  I noticed Italian and Greek influence on pages 113 and 127.  It helps to look at historical pictures.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on August 26, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
I keep thinking it might be a church but I don't know that churches ever have lions in front...a rectory perhaps?

I don't think this is a church, roisindubh.

If you do a search on Google Earth for 471 Waterloo St, London Ontario, you will see a large house with columns and lions in front of the porch.  This is a business now but at one time it was just a large house (single family in the early nineteen hundreds and maybe several apartments in more recent times).  I don't have any reason to think this is the house in the picture - I am just using it as an example to point out that some of the stately homes in the Queens Ave and Victoria Park area of London were built like this.  I believe the English family lived in the Kent St area across from Victoria Park and there would be many homes like 471 Waterloo St around the park up Central Ave or down Talbot St way.  Perhaps the young man in the photo was just hanging out on the porch of his apartment house.  Unfortunately so many of the houses have been torn down to make way for apartment towers so the building in the picture might not even be around anymore.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: roisindubh on September 07, 2014, 10:58:10 AM
Galaxygirl - if the photo was taken in London, the area you mentioned is most likely. I know the Waterloo St. building and yes, there are lots of fancy ones in that area. There was also one on Dundas St. that was looked at. One thing I noticed from the Dundas St. one is that the lions are very visible from the street but not so much on google maps, so I keep worrying I may have missed one as I'm now searching from afar.

There are lots of historical photos of those grand old houses that were torn down, so even if it's gone it would be possible to find it. It is harder to match a photo with a photo though, so hopefully the building is still around. I'm trying to use the marble and archways as a guide as they're quite distinct but nothing seems to match.  The reason I mentioned a church or rectory was because there was a suggestion about architecture in the Hamilton area. There's a very fancy cathedral in Hamilton - again, no match, but the style kind of reminded me of this. A former school is another likely place. It isn't any current London or Hamilton high school, as far as I can tell. Still need to check on the McMaster buildings as they look quite fancy. I found an online guide to historical Hamilton buildings but the pictures are REALLY small.

Have Faith - can you or someone else who has seen the whole photo describe what kind of lions they are? I'd thought the figure in behind him was a lion's head in a sort of column but you mentioned the lions were cut off here. Is there anything distinct about their faces or the way they're posed?         
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on September 07, 2014, 07:33:38 PM
I just stumbled back into this thread after a long summer\s distractions and hurdles.... and thought I would take another good look at that photo in discussion:  I am revising this opinion because I thought it looked like a "rose" on his shirt collar.... but realize now, that it is just a large wrinkle of the shirt created by his pose. 

To me, it is possibly not an "outdoor" scene, but an "indoor" setting of some kind.  I see a fireplace hearth, mantle etc. on the right.... and large stone or porcelain vase on the guy's left...    .... this place looks like a corridor in an elaborate city hall building.... like a courthouse.  ... wonder if this guy in the pic was a news reporter or legal firm "go fer"?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 08, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
Hi roisindubh,

Sorry, I can't remember, except that the lion's heads were white and large. 

HF

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 21, 2014, 02:30:15 PM
4 October will be the annual walk for Jackie.  Those interested can meet in front of Mc Donalds were the outside tables are at about 9 45 and we will walk across the overpass at the same time she did. Jackie will never walk alone.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sandpiper on September 30, 2014, 11:25:50 PM
Hello, I recently saw the program on Channel 10 regarding Jackie in which Marion (Marilyn Hird) was a part of.  I am her relative and all I can say is that she is so mentally ill.  She has had delusions for years and it is sad to say that what she says is not real but real to her.  I guess I do not understand why they would put her on television in the state she is in.  I grew up with her and her mental illness began as a child where over the years she has became sicker and sicker.  I was 14 when Jackie passed  and it is in my mind since that day.  Marilyn believes she knows the person and the person has changed several times through the years.  She believes the police have chased her with guns, it is that bad.  She has a mental disease and it is very hard to understand her at times.  I pray that no-one believes the words said on television, it was apparent by the interview she is not together.  Our family has tried to get bits and pieces over the years to find the person who murdered her, but the delusions have placed her in hospital several times.

I never saw her much as a party person as there were expectations that the children be home by 10 pm at 16 years of age.  As a teenager there were delusions several times.  I am sure that the things said cannot be believed, I wish they could be.  I suppose I am angry because the television people put such an ill person on the television for others to see.  It was leading to have her say she knows and will not tell.  Hope is for Jackie's killer to be found and that mental illness not be televised so false hope can be created.

Her illness includes believing:
she can talk to God
She has been married to famous people
her need to believe her delusions and tell others so people will talk to her and believe she is important

Talking to her for answers is a Merry-Go-Round that does not stop.  The important person is Jackie, not my relative.  I pray that answers are found that will be right and that will lead to the answer to her murder.  False hope from delusions does not have the answers.

Thank you for letting me  blog these paragraphs.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 01, 2014, 10:21:22 AM
Thank you very much for clarifying everything regarding Marilyn -  I wondered about her, when I saw her in that program.  Amazing what tv programs will do to create a story. Surely they knew, after spending time with her that she was not mentally healthy. Shame on them!! How misleading for the public as well!!

Very sad indeed.

Welcome to Unsolved Sandpiper.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 02, 2014, 10:48:18 AM
There is NO doubt in my mind that Marilyn is ill. There is no doubt in my mind that Marilyn was with Jackie on Friday night (Oct.3/69) & that they were given a ride home by 2 men. These men change....sometimes M.'s friends, sometimes complete strangers....as do their descriptions. There is no doubt in my mind that after that ride something changed & Jackie did not want to return to the Met the following night. There is no doubt in my mind that Marilyn attempted suicide shortly after Jackie's murder & found in her pocket was a picture of Jackie with M's handwriting...saying that the name of Jackie's killer would be buried with her. There is no doubt in my mind that Marilyn is ill!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on October 03, 2014, 12:12:36 AM
I always get a weird feeling when someone "discredits" a witness.  I know we are strangers here, but I hate when a witnesses, who've been through hell and end up permanently traumatized, are considered incapable of any truth.  There is always a spark of truth and hope wherever there is life... I like to believe that. :-\
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 03, 2014, 04:28:58 PM
I have met Marilyn and emailed back and forth with her many times. She is mentally ill but not so ill that there was any question of her doing her part in the show.  She was more than willing to do it and no doctors were needed to ok her participation.  I don't think the show did anything TO her. It was professional from start to finish and not sensational in the least. She was treated well ... very well... and the team were just trying to get some answers. She knows more than she lets on but I think after years of misdiagnosis and lies she doesn't know what the truth is any more about anything. The truth is the police can solve this without her. What I cannot stand about her is her attempts to discredit Jackie and Jackie's reputation. That's all I want to say about HER. She has wasted enough time
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2014, 10:28:40 PM
My sincerest gratitude to all those who ventured out tonight, in this cold & damp to walk Jackie's walk so she never need walk it alone. All of our faithful participants & a few new additions. Your dedication to Jackie continues to astound me & I am blessed by each of you. Jackie has touched the lives of so many who will never give up on resolution & justice & continue to honour her by remembering her same walk yearly. I am so grateful for these caring people & I know Jackie would be as well. Thank you so much for remembering Jackie
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 05, 2014, 09:00:57 AM
It was a chilly night but it was for Jackie so it didn't seem quite as cold. So nice to see new faces who knew and loved Jackie. What has been interesting to see this year is the number of people coming out of the woodwork when something like this is posted on facebook or in the paper. More friends of Jackie, more people who knew the family, co workers... they all have the same memory of a beautiful, kind and gentle girl. I'm convinced the more it's kept in the public eye, the more momentum the cases will get, the more people can be reached who will remember.

This is not an easy time of year for her family and they need our support as well as Jackie's friends (especially her best friend V) and the people whose lives she touched (the little girl she babysat...C) and her old co workers. I was thinking about it on the way home... imagine having someone make that much of an impression with their kindness and gentle spirit... then they're taken away like this. It's amazing how many people this young, shy girl touched.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on October 05, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
Jackie was obviously a very special young girl. Even though many years have passed she is still loved and remembered by those who's lives she touched.

I'm glad to see that there was once again a good turnout for Jackie's walk. Distance keeps me from being able to attend, although I am there in spirit.

I know this is a hard time of year for her family and friends. You are in my thoughts today.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on October 06, 2014, 07:17:23 AM
Jackie's family has struggled for so many years for find justice.  So much time has passed - even the concrete and steel overpass that Jackie walked over has been replaced.  Memory and pursuit of justice outlasts concrete.  Evidence that the strength of the human spirit is remarkable. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on October 09, 2014, 02:56:32 PM
https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en-CA&gbv=2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=ca&q=Otterville,+ON&sa=X&ei=9e02VOa3KZTCsATG2IHQDg&ved=0CBQQ8gEoATAA


I went to the location today where Jacqueline was found. If you are able to access the link, Google maps will bring you right on the bridge. If you cannot access the link, here is an address that you can put in Google maps and it will take you there. The 10th Conssession has been renamed and it is now called Cornell Rd.
185515 Cornell Rd, Otterville, ON this address will also be accepted with the GPS. Today is the day that she was found 45 years ago. Very sad that this goes on to be unsolved and it would be so nice to have answers especially for the family left behind. To Jeb and Jesa, hopefully this year will be when you get the answers you have been waiting for so long for. You are in my thoughts Jacqueline
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 09, 2014, 05:31:16 PM
You're brave, Sunshine... I don't think I could go there. In addition to Jesa and JEB, I think about the rest of Jackie's family, her friends and the children she used to babysit. I'm sure this is a sad time for all of them.
The person responsible should know we are not giving up.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on October 09, 2014, 05:54:00 PM
I also have visited this site and I am sure that Sunshine31 can attest to the fact that it can be a very emotional experience. It is such a serene and beautiful natural setting but all you can think of is the needless loss of a life with so much potential. The drive home is a lot tougher than the drive there.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on October 10, 2014, 05:47:58 AM
You are absolutely right factsfirst. It is very emotional. If anyone ever wants to go, please just let me know. Factsfirst, you should have came with me. It would have made finding the place that much easier.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sandpiper on October 12, 2014, 11:57:03 AM
Hello, I wish I could of been at the bridge to walk but had to work.  I understand Chickapee (not sure I spelled that right) that she consented to the interview.  I just want you to know that she does thrive on the attention and I know they used to hitch hike over the bridge.  People with mental health issues have rights I am aware of, and she has a right to speak her mind on television.  I am just saying she has not been well since she was 14 years old.  Mental illness runs in my family and in her direct family there were 3 out of 6 that had or have been diagnosed with severe mental illness.  The interview affected her afterwards and the family has had to deal with the effects afterwards.  The interview did set her back and we are currently dealing with delusions again.  Please understand that she has the right to speak as the Mental Health Act permits her.  I wish the truth would come forward but it is apparent that she only knows bits and pieces that do not show the real truth.  At no time did I say she was not treated badly, she would be more than willing tell everyone what she thinks she knows or imagines.  Please understand during the interview this may not of been apparent, however her sister and I now have to try to get her focused on having some sort of quality of life as she is caught up in her delusions again.  Would you say that someone who thinks they were married to Harrison Ford is in their right mind?  I see the interview as not giving any information that was credible.  She only knew Jackie a short time, a period of time that changed people's lived forever.  I pray that the information she did give did help the case.  I really don't know if it did or not.  I wonder if it was worth it to set her back?  She seems to be getting better and we rarely engage in her conversations about the case.  The story changes all the time.  As said before if the interview helped then it was worth it.  It just seemed sad to me that she gave anyone false hope.  If you have mental illness in your family, I believe it would be understood.  Thank you for letting me speak about the situation.  Jackie is the most important person in these blogs and views, not my relative.  I just had to talk about the ripple effect from the interview.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sandpiper on October 12, 2014, 01:46:46 PM
Hello, forgot to say thank you for the welcome.  I am the younger sister of Marilyn and as a child I grew up with the details of the murder as the police were at out house on a regular basis.  I try to remember what was said at that time listening to Marilyn.  There has been enough time with her, the answers are in bits and pieces.  I do remember Marion said she was sick on October 3rd and did not go in for her shift.  The remember that the two did hitch hike to get a ride over the overpass at least one time for sure.  They were picked up by two men one night and I remember the detectives getting the descriptions of them and there were some pictures that were drawn by an artist.  I remember the detectives in the living room showing her pictures.  They were at our house several times.

One day I was walking through the schoolyard near our house and I found a letter written regarding the case.  There had been a plea for anyone with information to forward any information (The London Free Press) to pass it to the paper even if there was not a name signed to it.  I took the letter to my mom and I don't know what happened after that to it.  It just seemed strange that I found the letter.  My parents kept information away from me but I did see and hear things.  I was 14 years old at the time.

I really don't think either girls were partying as we were expected home on time.  I think they did hitch hike and this is how they may of met some people.  I used to hitch hike and I ran into not so nice people from time to time.  I do not remember hearing the girls were at any parties, they both worked and went to school.  We were expected back home on time and do not recall a night where my parents were looking for the girls.  I believe they were teenagers hitch hiking as lots of people did in the late 60's and 70's.  It was a different time and parents did not give rides to children all the time, we were expected to walk or ride our bikes.  Sometimes there were boys, but perhaps there was two not so good men that night.  I do know that Marilyn called in sick by what my parents and the detectives were saying.  The overpass was a very scary thing at that time, it would be dark and cold on an October night. When I started working at the Superstore in the late 70's I walked over it several times to go to the bus, it was something I did not like to do by myself, but I did it because there was no other way to get home.  Any thoughts?   Sandpiper
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 12, 2014, 02:00:44 PM
Your info regarding Oct.3/69 is incorrect. Perhaps you may have confused this date with another event. M. was at work & she & Jackie were driven back into London by 2 men.
I understand your love & concern for your sister but FACTS can not be altered. There is no question about where M. was on the Friday night.
I hope you & your family nothing but the best.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: sandpiper on October 13, 2014, 10:43:37 AM
Yes I may of read the date wrong, but I remember her being ill when the event occurred as the police were asking about a time before that date.    Anyway this is what I heard in the discussions when the police were at out home.  Thanks for the best wishes.  Sandpiper
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 13, 2014, 05:37:32 PM
Who is Marion?  Is she the sister of Marilyn?  Both M's are used interchangeably, and it is very confusing to the reader.
It was Marilyn who was interviewed on TCAK was she not?
 :-\

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 13, 2014, 06:51:19 PM
Marilyn/Marion is the same person. She uses both
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 14, 2014, 10:18:19 AM
Marilyn/Marion is the same person. She uses both
My bolding

Thanks chickapey:

WOW!! ::)
I am sorry to learn of the struggles her family is having with her.  To my mind they deserve respect and admiration in the "looking out" for her interests. I wish them well in every way possible.  God Bless them. They are special people.

jb

ps.  I have watched replays of TCAK, and hope that it is "picked up" by a production company. In my opinion, they would have to branch out with other cases across either Ontario or preferably across Canada to capture a greater audience.  The fifth estate also cover some cold cases from time to time.

Canada needs a program like TCAK.  They could do one a week, and it go on forever. In order to do that, it would take money, and in our country, we expect glossy productions done on a shoe string.

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 14, 2014, 02:58:26 PM
There sure are an endless supply of cold cases, unfortunately. They could concentrate on OPP cases alone and have the show run years. OWN decided not to renew it and I haven't heard if they managed to get picked up by another network. it's sad that there can be endless stupid 'reality' shows yet something that matters won't get picked up.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 19, 2014, 10:19:29 PM
I would like to get back to the photo of the young man sitting on the steps (reply 745 on page 50).  At first I didn't think he was in front of a church but we shouldn't overlook that possibility.  When I was a teenager in the sixties I often went to church dances or joined youth groups at various churches in London (a good way to meet boys) .  Jesa, did Jackie belong to a church or youth group?  As for the location where the photo was taken I have a really strong feeling about a building at 602 Queens Avenue which is at the corner of Queens and Adelaide St.  It was a church at one time and then it closed and was purchased by Info-Tech Research Group.  They didn't do any renovations to the outside of the building except they took out the porch and steps so that you walk right into the front door at ground level.  The large columns remain intact (you can see this clearly on Google Earth).  If we could find an old picture of this building when it was a church we will see if there were lion statues and marble steps like the ones in the photo of the young man.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 19, 2014, 10:56:16 PM
Hi Galaxy Girl.....I did the same thing in the 60's but am not aware if Jackie went to these. I know the building you mean...I think it was a Baptist church & my son attended private school there for a year. I will speak with him & also look for some photos from that time era. Good thinking! Will let you know what I find out.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 20, 2014, 02:05:49 PM
It was Central Baptist Church. The boy in the photo looks like he was dressed up for church.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 20, 2014, 04:21:46 PM

Re 602 Queens Ave.  I checked with a friend who grew up in a house that is close to this building.  Her family has owned the house from the 1950's until the present.  Sometime in the 1960's the entrance was graded to level ground, but her family can state that there were no lion heads at the entrance from the 1950's onward. 

Assuming that the photo of the male was taken in the late 1960's, I think we can rule out this location as being the site of the photo. 

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 20, 2014, 05:26:19 PM
Thanks, Have faith.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 20, 2014, 10:02:31 PM
YW galaxygirl...I was lucky in having a contact for this site.  We will all keep looking.   :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 21, 2014, 10:03:35 AM
Without having to go back to page 1 and re-read, and for the benefit of new people could someone explain why is this picture so important? Where was this picture found? Is it the person in the picture who needs to be indentified? or the place? or both.

Thanks everyone :)

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 21, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
JellyBean.... I believe it was found in Jackie's diary.

The church on Queen's... it's columns are round and white aren't they? This looks like a lot of steps up to the archways on the sides and a huge planter behind him. The archways look like they have definite corners and not round.

This was posted on the facebook group for London a while ago. Someone said he looked familiar but never got back to the poster. I'm not convinced this is actually London though... 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 23, 2014, 11:33:03 AM
Chickapey: the building looks "official". With the sad events of yesterday, in Ottawa, the buildings brought back memories of my childhood in Ottawa. Yesterday, one could see lion heads on the federal post office bldg. (as an example).
Lions heads were often displayed in "official - primarily federal, and some provincial buildings. Main post offices, libraries, museums, you name it, one would see lions displayed in front of the building. Any building that housed federal or provincial matters.

This could have been a building of importance to the citizens of London, or  any other city. I don't recall any churches with lions, ever. 
Just throwing in two cents here. 


JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 23, 2014, 03:52:45 PM
Thank you JB. That makes complete sense & I hadn't thought of that. Appreciate your insight very much. I think this will be helpful in our search. So saddened by our national losses this past week.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 24, 2014, 07:47:01 PM
Well --- I am hooked!  I am stuck on that darn picture, (reply 745 on page 50).  ;D

Can someone pretty  please offer their opinion on the following;

If you look between his legs, there is a white triangle there. At the bottom of that triangle, there is an object that looks like a piece of wood laying horizontally.   To my tired eyes, it looks like a little sailboat laying on its side. The wooden object is the actual little boat attached to the sail.  He is holding a long reed in his hand. Could this reed be used to guide the sailboat around?  I have seen it done.

There could be some type of a fountain, or a reflective pool  close by, which would be situated in front of this building.
- thus the marble.

The black box, which sure looks like part of a fireplace,  probably is a  planter with a plant in it - I think someone else also thought it was a plant.

JB

PS. I think this is a young man who is large for his young years.  I would put him at 16 to 18 years of age.
His nose and general appearance of his face is soft with youth.   To be truthful, he looks like my first boyfriend who was 16 at the time I met him.  He looked older because of his size.  He also had that square jaw.

I guarantee you, it is not my first boyfriend.  They say that everyone has a double.  And this is certainly the case.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 25, 2014, 04:04:25 PM
I can't see that he's holding anything but the sail makes sense because there is something there blocking the view of what's behind him. I think the planter behind him IS sitting on something square like you said and there seem to be either stairs behind him or part of the wall he's sitting on. Something like a finneal (sp) that would go at the end.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 25, 2014, 04:15:14 PM
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=709.msg109572#msg109572 (743 page 50) by chickapey
If you look at his left hand in the forefront, and then look across to the right - there is a triangle going up to his other knee.  At first, one would take it as a blank space (because it is white), but it looks like a toy (hobbie sail boat to me).

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 25, 2014, 05:49:50 PM
I mean I don't see the stick he's holding.. the sail boat makes sense though. All I know for sure is it's driving me nuts
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 25, 2014, 06:28:08 PM
You are right - he is not holding a stick.  I took another look at it noticed imperfections (damage to the photo - going across it kind of in a < shape.)
It looks like the photo is cracked.  So the crack in the photo gives the appearance of a stick. This crack or cracks extend over to bottom of the "flower pot" which makes the pot look as though it is kind of suspended off the floor.
That could easily be repaired by something like photoshop or the like - know what I mean?
I wonder who has the original photo?

Can you make out the damage?

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 26, 2014, 09:59:25 AM
I was thinking the same thing... photoshop the damage out and maybe clean some lines up a little. What puzzles me is what appears to be stairs in the background... they look too small in proportion to the rest of the building to be stairs but being a topper doesn't quite work either. Does anyone else have  the talent to clear this picture up a bit?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 26, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
I am no   whizz when it comes to computers (obviously, as I still have not mastered loading a picture onto the internet)
Here is a thought, and perhaps it is possible.

I know that there are images (pictures) that we have on UC, that can be magnified to some extent, by clicking on the mouse.  I think all of you know what I mean.

It would be great if we can also have this picture set up in order to magnify it.

Is it possible?? Can it be done Debbiec? :)

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on October 27, 2014, 09:58:03 AM
I'm not sure what you mean here, JB. Do you mean clicking on the pic and having it enlarge? There is a picture posted on page 50 of this thread, which I'm thinking you've seen. It can be enlarged a small amount by clicking on it, although it still isn't very big. There is also a feature on your computer that you can use to magnify things. I attempted to do that with with this picture and it really didn't work well for me.

I was able to find a program online which can be used to resize photos. I found when using it for this particular picture that the larger I attempted to make it, the worse it got. That is partly due to the fact that it is an old photo.

In the end I decided to see what would happen if I 'set the pic as background' on my computer. That does work to an extent as it is now a large pic, but not all that clear.

Perhaps someone else has an idea?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on October 27, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
Only because JB said pretty please, I took the photo and cleaned it up a bit and made it b&w which i think is easier to see.  Now, hopefully it will attach to this email.  If you look below his right hand and to the left of his left knee on the edge of the step, it appears to be writing of some sort.  Who has the original, was there an inscription of any kind?  if you look there is a black line that goes from the 'script' and crosses his leg a bit, possibly the tail to a Y?  It appears to me to be something added to the photo after, as opposed to something in the picture.

JWM
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on October 27, 2014, 11:25:22 AM
And for reference sake, here is the original i got from the earlier post.  You can still make out the 'script' i mentioned but i had thought it was marbling in the step before noticing the line going across his leg that looks post photo.

I have a Mac and just dragged and dropped the pic to my desktop and then when you click it, it opens and you can enlarge etc.

JWM
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 27, 2014, 12:06:06 PM
Thank you very much JWM. Great job! I cannot magnify mine, but hopefully someone may be able to make out the writing, or a bit of it.   You have an excellent eye JWM in picking up on the writing. And your photo certainly has been cleared up. 

Debbiec.  I found that photo that I could enlarge - thank you - and it sure helps.
Who knows? - we may even have someone come on this site and tell us what the script says?  Perhaps the person who has the original photo?

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 27, 2014, 12:46:11 PM
this is fantastic... the black and white really clears a lot up! Thank you! now to figure out the writing
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 27, 2014, 02:54:14 PM
Thank you all....JB, Debbie, Chick & Galaxygirl & especially JWM.
Jackie received her diary mid April 69 & stopped entries early Sept. 69. This photo was found in her diary but I do not believe the OPP were even aware of it until Project Angel when they were given the original. I may be wrong about this though....
Not sure the recent OPP detectives are aware of it now....things tend to be overlooked unless significance is stressed. By the end of the week, OPP will be updated about this photo.
Perhaps as a friend said "Jackie left us a hint".
Thank you all for your contributions....every day brings us closer to resolution.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 27, 2014, 02:59:24 PM
this is fantastic... the black and white really clears a lot up! Thank you! now to figure out the writing


Lol. that in itself can drive a person over the edge. sigh.  I wonder if we could or someone could- capture the bottom of the picture, and reverse the colouring.  Change the black writing into white - or something like that!! Lordy be -now we are into forensics!!

JB.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 27, 2014, 03:06:11 PM
One important comment...........the more info that is shared, brings us closer to answers. The decades of keeping everything close, brought nothing! The past few years...since Jackie's thread began, have brought not only an amazing amount of new information but also intimate contact with the OPP.
I sincerely feel that had this site not been utilized...we would be exactly where we were before....& had been for decades. NO WHERE but pondering, wishing & praying.
The prayers were answered through this site & the folks who have helped.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on October 27, 2014, 03:48:35 PM
After playing around with the program I found online, and using the black and white photo (thanks JWM) I was able to enlarge the picture a bit. Clarity is still not bad at this size.

Click on picture to enlarge.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 27, 2014, 04:12:57 PM
Thanks Debbie.  Wow - his eyes. Even with him squinting, they are very large.

I think I see an ear piece on his left ear?

I would not say his hair is bushy, as in this pic it is nicely combed. He does have a thick full head of hair.    Throw in the  wind, and it might have a bushy wild appearance. Who's wouldn't?

Also note that he has some thing across his lap. It looks like a fishing reel - but not quite.  It is something, but I can't make it out.

I have confidence that a poster will be able to identify it. It appears to be a rifle with a lock? No that can't be - but it is something.



JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on October 27, 2014, 05:06:27 PM
Try this, it looks like an enlarged area on my screen so hopefully it transfers to the site.

JWM
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 30, 2014, 05:12:47 PM
Okay, I have looked at Mr. Mystery every which way from here to Sunday - walked away and came back to take another look - ad nauseam . ::) ::)

I am now 80% certain that he is holding something..... and I believe it is a fishing rod. If you look at the right hand, you can see the holding part of the rod sticking out by his little finger.

Also, it appears to me that he has ear studs or an earring on his left ear lobe.( Although I can't say it with certainty.)

Comments anyone?  Do I need to see an optometrist or a  shrink , or both?

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on October 30, 2014, 06:31:57 PM
I don't think it's an ear ring, the photo quality isn't the best and i'm thinking males with an ear stud in 68 or 69 was a rarity.  As for something in his hand, what about a kite?  maybe that would be the white thing in front of him and he has part of the handle in his hand?

JWM
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: galaxygirl on October 30, 2014, 06:43:40 PM
One thing that stands out for me is how neatly his pant leg is creased.  I don't ever remember any boys going fishing or flying kites dressed up like that. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 30, 2014, 07:12:07 PM
Galaxy girl and JWM - you are right about being dressed in Sunday best and flying kite is unusual.
But what if it was  taken at a church group picnic on a Sunday.  Just guessing.  A church picnic with kite flying? kinda makes sense.

The most important thing and the best way if possible is to have the writing deciphered on the picture, which was discovered by JWM.  The original picture (sadly) is no longer in the family's possession. (sigh)

JB

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 30, 2014, 07:52:32 PM
I like the church picnic and kite idea! Never thought of it being a kite but yes! Also, didn't boys then dress better than they did now? Not like he was an Alex P Keaton type but smartly dressed... he doesn't look like a  hippie... more like a slight Mod.

What about body language? It looks like he posed for this pic with a purpose.

I think the boys with earrings started in the mid to late 70s with punk so I'm not sure about that part. .... If this is a kite... could the thing in his hand be the string or tail of the kite?

As for the writing... what about flipping the colours.. negative and positive space? that could help. I have a photographer friend who may have a program that could enhance this... I will see what she thinks
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 31, 2014, 11:59:14 AM
Chickapey, flipping colours, negative, positive, is what I was suggesting (I think), although not as clearly as you.  Hopefully your friend will take up this enormous challenge!
Trying to figure out where this picture was taken is extremely difficult,.  Although perhaps investigative posters (which I choose to call all of you who have dedicated yourselves to the London thread) may get lucky.

Mr. Mystery has a very relaxed pose, and shows a quiet self-confidence. (in my view). In that time period, people did pose for pictures, in a more formal fashion than we do today.

I noticed that he has very long graceful fingers.
Fine hands for a man.  This leads me to believe that he has not been exposed to labour work or farm work, as hands and fingers develop muscles from such work, even at a young age, and his are rather thread like. 

JB

 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 31, 2014, 01:43:48 PM
I agree with the what you say about the pose for sure... quiet self confidence as well as your observations about his hands. How old would you say he is? I'm not good at that kind of thing and it seems people back then looked older for some reason.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 31, 2014, 05:02:38 PM
Age? I would place him between 17 to 20. . My reasoning   is that he still has the softness of youth to his face. When a person reaches 20 and over, their features become sharper - they lose that softness to the cheeks and nose area.  Just my opinion.  He is well built - not an ounce of fat on him that I can see -.  And as aside - when a young man gets all dressed up to fly a kite, or whatever he is doing - probably spends his free time in clean pursuits - unless this was an exceptional day for him.

Looks can be deceiving, however where he is and what he is doing tells more about him than his looks. And whomever took the picture was probably also participating in the activity of that day.

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 31, 2014, 05:32:09 PM
Just finished punching in DB's name and look at what came up?  Could this be one and the same?
This is the site for the Supreme Court of Canada/Ontario
If so, what does it mean? 
http://www.scc-csc.gc.ca/case-dossier/info/counsel-procureurs-eng.aspx?cas=13239



Counsel

13239

David Bodemer v. Her Majesty the Queen

(Ontario)




Party: Bodemer, David

This party is not represented by counsel.


Party: Her Majesty the Queen

This party is not represented by counsel.

Date modified:2012-12-03
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 31, 2014, 08:07:00 PM
that's him.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on October 31, 2014, 08:30:30 PM
Well, it is odd to me that a middle name is not used.  I wonder what this was all about -( neither represented by counsel) and modified in 2012?
Perhaps a poster with some legal experience would know the meaning of this ie: will this case continue, when counsel is obtained? - or was everything dropped?

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on November 06, 2014, 03:33:26 PM
I hope I'm doing this right as I don't post much and have never tried to post a picture.  This picture brought to mind what we might be looking for in the pictures of the young man.  This house has a brick fence topped with what looks like could be marble similar to the picture.  The address of this house is 53 McLarty Ave which is near Elmwood Ave where Jackie lived before moving to Kent.  If believe the young man could be sitting on this fence or one similiar.  I believe it is worth a drive past this house.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on November 06, 2014, 04:01:49 PM
Quote
If believe the young man could be sitting on this fence or one similiar.  I believe it is worth a drive past this house.

Thanks for posting the picture Charity Grace.

I have never added my opinion as to what the young man could be sitting on, but have wondered also if it is some type of fence/rock wall.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 06, 2014, 05:58:50 PM
Until the person who has the photo uploads it in it's entirety, which shows the lion heads, I'm afraid people are wasting their time. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on November 07, 2014, 10:07:53 AM
Sorry spelled the street incorrectly, should be McClary not McLarty.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on November 09, 2014, 07:52:01 PM
You are right Have Faith until we see the entire picture it is just too difficult to tell with certainty!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: butterflies on November 10, 2014, 05:49:09 PM
Hi there, I am new to the site but I have been reading for quite awhile. I was having trouble registering for the longest time but luckily I was able to finally register and be apart of this wonderful community. I tried to isolate the signature but the quality of the photo is poor. For some reason I keep seeing "John" as the first word. I've been starring it for the last hour. Hopefully we can get a fresh pair of eyes to check it out.I'll keep playing around with it tonight.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: vinnie on November 21, 2014, 07:32:31 PM
Just back here myself after a few months.  As I look at this photo, and now read that there is a possible signature of the photographer, I wonder if the people at Colour by Schubert on King Street in London might know whose signature that is.   They can be found on the web and perhaps someone with the technological know how could email them a copy for an opinion?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on November 21, 2014, 08:48:40 PM
Welcome butterflies!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on November 22, 2014, 03:35:38 PM
Yes, it would definitely helpful to see the entire photo. Based on what I can see, it doesn't look like an entrance to an 'ordinary' house....rather a mansion or a public building.

I really don't think he has a kite, or anything else for that matter. I think that the white area is simply the area under/behind his bent leg. It looks like the wall that he is sitting on has a slightly raised ledge just past his bent leg and perhaps the wall joins another perpendicular wall at that point. It looks to me like there is a white wall behind him on the left side of the photo. This "wall" would explain why we see the stairs go from the bottom right, upwards toward the centre. I think it's a wall since it has the same colour as the pillars on the sun-exposed side. The photo is over-exposed from the one side as it is very bright out. 

Just my guesses, naturally. With the full photo I'm sure the set up would be much more helpful and obvious.

I believe the guy is having a nice photo taking since he is nicely dressed and groomed. He might be out on a date or out with his family.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: FactHunter on November 24, 2014, 11:15:44 AM
If there is a signature on the photo that's too light to read, a VSC (video spectral comparator) could be employed.  Using the proper light filtration under a VSC would make the signature glow like a christmas tree.  I'm not sure if UWO has a VSC (they retail for approximately $30K) but I'd surmise that they might.  I'm sure Mr. Arntfield and his team have already considered this if they deemed so fit.    This is assuming that the signature can not be deciphered by the naked eye or using a $20 black light with the photo in hand.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: butterflies on November 24, 2014, 11:43:28 AM
Welcome butterflies!

Thank you Sunshine31!

does anyone know where this original photo is or in who's position it is currently in?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on November 25, 2014, 09:56:18 PM
Is there a person peeking out from behind the concrete column in the background?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on November 27, 2014, 11:24:09 AM

Until the person who has the photo uploads it in it's entirety, which shows the lion heads, I'm afraid people are wasting their time. 

Have Faith, just wondering how you know the photo is not in its entirety and also that it is lion's heads.  Could you also confirm that by lion's heads you mean the image on the urns?  Have you seen the original?  I am also under the impression that the OPP now have the original.  Am I wrong? I ask only because you can not really tell in the photo what is on the urns but if you have seen the original then we can trust that what you say is correct.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on November 29, 2014, 09:19:50 PM

Until the person who has the photo uploads it in it's entirety, which shows the lion heads, I'm afraid people are wasting their time. 

Have Faith, just wondering how you know the photo is not in its entirety and also that it is lion's heads.  Could you also confirm that by lion's heads you mean the image on the urns?  Have you seen the original?  I am also under the impression that the OPP now have the original.  Am I wrong? I ask only because you can not really tell in the photo what is on the urns but if you have seen the original then we can trust that what you say is correct.


I saw a copy of the original photo, and yes, LE have the original.  The lion's head is a full head form, made of stone, and sits atop a stone pillar.  There is a similar matching pair, but a larger sized lion head located at a heritage house in London--the John Buchan House.  You can see it on google maps.

The address is 566 Dundas Street.  Click on "street view" and zoom in.  You will see the two columns on both side of the stairs leading up to the front verandah.  I can't remember if only one column and lion's head was visible in the picture, and assumed that there would be a matching one.  Where the young man is sitting, the lion's head and at least the top of the column underneath of it, is visible to the right and below him.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Charity Grace on December 01, 2014, 03:20:46 PM
Thanks Have Faith!!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on December 01, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
Wow, an arrest in the 39 year old Kathryn-Mary Herbert case and others connected to it. Just heard it on the news. What a jolt! Just need to redouble our efforts folks.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on December 01, 2014, 07:58:57 PM
Yes, it's so good to them solve the cold case murders of these two young girls in BC. Such good news and it certainly provides hope to families still waiting for answers.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 17, 2015, 03:48:17 PM
Today would have been Jackie's 61 st birthday.
We are still actively working on resolution, although not posting at this time.
This forum is a wonderful tool & has not only been an aid to us but has shown us the genuine kindness & goodness in many people.
The JE crew & all the members & guests have gone above & beyond in offering their help, prayers & good wishes.
Chickapey....went with her children today to Jackie's grave site.....to tidy the plots & sing Happy Birthday & then paid me a visit.
Jackie was & still is a precious person to so many!
Thank you Chick
HAPPY BIRTHDAY JACKIE
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 18, 2015, 07:29:04 AM
Jackie will always be precious to many and we won't give up. x
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: goNgo on April 24, 2015, 08:28:30 PM
So sorry I missed Jackie's birthday.

Love and hugs to all who care about Jackie.

Chickapey, you always amaze me with your honest compassion.

Jesa and Jed...always thinking of both of you. I wish I had known your sister. She has clearly inspired much love.
I am heading out on a vacation this weekend with my sister and I now know how truly fortunate I am.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: doveash on May 20, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
This is my first post on the forum so please forgive me if anything I express seems irrelevant or has already been addressed elsewhere.

I live in England but grew up in and around Toronto,Kitchener and Stratford and obviously went to London,Ontario on a number of occasions.

I was aware of Jackie's case and have always been very frustrated by the lack of progress in regards to the police investigation...not just concerning Jackie's case but the many other still unsolved murders in London.

I caught the TCAK program that focussed on Jackie the other night and, although I feel the renewed highlighting of her story is great, I have to admit that it left me even more frustrated.

Does anyone have a photo of DB? I've searched the Georgia Jackson press clippings I could find but there was never a picture of him despite being convicted in that case.

I realize that he is said to be still 'out there'...which then makes you wonder if he is the DB who serves as an accounts manager for the JW in Waterloo? Then again, wouldn't DB have been expelled from the JW after his confession/conviction? Would they really have allowed him back into the fold after his release from prison?

I truly wish an investigative journalist or independent filmmaker would create a documentary about the murders in London...I know Mike arntfield is/has written a book but I think Jackie and the many other victims deserve a film...investigating what is known already and trying to piece information together more deeply than what has already been offered ( TCAK Etc) I am actually shocked that no one has done this already...

Anyway, I'm rambling,I'm sorry...

I just wish Jackie and her family could finally have the peace,closure and answers they deserve.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on May 21, 2015, 06:34:04 PM
Welcome doveash, I find your first post very thoughtful and perceptive. The issues that you raise are some of the most important to everyone here. Encouraging to hear an observation from England.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on May 21, 2015, 07:18:56 PM
quote from doveash;

Quote
I realize that he is said to be still 'out there'...which then makes you wonder if he is the DB who serves as an accounts manager for the JW in Waterloo? Then again, wouldn't DB have been expelled from the JW after his confession/conviction? Would they really have allowed him back into the fold after his release from prison?[\quote]

I would not be surprised.
How many years did he get? Does anyone know? And was he charged with 1st degree or ?

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: doveash on May 22, 2015, 05:15:14 AM
Thank you for the warm welcome factsfirst...

Jellybean,  from what I've read of the Georgia Jackson case, DB was convicted of non capital murder and sentenced to 10 years ( which still astounds me...I know the Canadian government were in the midst of redefining murder due to the planned abolishment of the death penalty, but 10 years!!!! ) DB served the 10years and was released.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on May 25, 2015, 02:37:23 PM
Welcome Doveash! The more brains on this the better. DB was sentenced by the judge to life imprisonment. Funny he was out in ten years. He must have behaved himself or something but to be eligible for parole let alone a release that soon is just beyond what I can imagine. He was guilty of not only murder but rape. Did her family not go to his hearing and demand he be kept in?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on May 26, 2015, 07:11:10 AM
I wonder, to what extent, a police investigation into a murder (or a re-opening of an unsolved case) is shaped by a pre-formed opinion that there was one vs. two murderers for a specific case?    Within the discussion threads for Jackie's case, based on London Free Press information from the police, there is a very obvious sense of two people associated with Jackie's murder.  Two people at the coffee counter; two people in the car that picked her up.  If we add into the mix the assault on Betty H., she also was of the opinion that two people were involved.  Even considering where Jackie was eventually found - might this suggest a killer and an accomplice?     If the general facts of Jackie's case suggest two murderers, how might this play into the investigation (and scenarios put forth in this forum - for example the case of Lynda White) of the other cases that might be linked to Jackie's case?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on June 24, 2015, 07:42:56 AM
Murder City: The Untold Story of Canada’s Serial Killer Capital, 1959-1984  by Michael Arntfield has been released.       Here is the website with information ---  murdercitythebook.com
It is a fascinating read.   FYI -- just to avoid internet confusion -- There is also another book titled Murder City  about murders in Mexico called -Murder City: Ciudad Juarez and the Global Economy's New Killing Fields.   
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on June 25, 2015, 06:27:07 PM
What I find mindblowing is that Fryer was Marilyns tutor!!!!! I checked this out myself because I have noticed some errors. Minor errors about our family & where we were all located. BUT this info is confirmed to be accurate

Wrong thread....my apologies...could it be moved to Jackie's please
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on June 25, 2015, 07:27:25 PM
No problem Jesa. It's been moved.:)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 26, 2015, 08:11:17 AM
I wonder when and HOW he came to be her tutor. Most times now, retired teachers will tutor kids but the principal of a 'special school' from the other end of the city? Where would they meet for the tutoring sessions? How does this all tie in?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Gypsygirl on June 27, 2015, 05:02:27 PM
Hello I am new to this site but have followed many of these cases being a Londoner since I was very young. I too am very curious as to the theory of two people being involved in Jacqueline's case if not more cases. I read on a previous post someone who spoke of the man that they think might be involved D. and that person said that he/she did not believe that D. was capable of committing such a crime on his own. That with the fact that two people were seen at the Treasure Island Coffee shop/diner the night Jacqueline went missing is a very curious thing to me. I don't know how common/uncommon it is for people to "team up" completing such horrific acts but perhaps in this case one was the "thinker" behind the act and the other was the "doer, or follower". I too wonder if this has ever been a consideration in this case. My heart goes out to Jacqueline's family and all that they have been through and beyond thrilled that M. Arntfield has raised awareness around all of these unsolved murders! As well I would like to add as I have to Frankie Jensen's site that I am in awe of all of you and your dedication and compassion having spent countless hours engaging in very relevant conversations that I'm sure have been helfpful in moving things closer to finally knowing who killed Jacqueline.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on June 28, 2015, 09:14:28 AM
Thank you for your insight Gypsygirl....you are correct! Every bit of info that I have suggests that 2 men are involved.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on June 29, 2015, 09:03:58 AM
I don't like thinking or talking about this but... I would think there would need to be two people involved for many reasons but disposing of the bodies being a big reason. Jackie Dunleavy was dragged or so the book says which indicates one person. The kids thrown from bridges or in the water suggest two people due to the height of the bridge sides plus the solid weight.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Gypsygirl on June 29, 2015, 11:23:44 AM
Sadly I agree.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: supernatural on August 23, 2015, 02:28:30 PM
Hi guys,

I  am just in the midst of reading a book called "A Viable Suspect" by retired officer Barry Ruhl.  He has focused on an individual for a number of murders including Jackies. (I am not trying to sell this guys book either just a fan of true crime reading).
I am not sure if it has already been mentioned in this forum as I have not read through it in such a long time. 
The suspect was a travelling salesman at the time and was also caught prowling and peeping in windows in the sauble beach area.  Its a good read and not sure if I can mention the suspects name on here as I do not think he was ever charged with a heinous crime just robbery and assault etc.  and believe he has passed away since.
Anyhow, if interested check out this potential serial killer.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 23, 2015, 07:57:54 PM
The author of A Viable Suspect will make a presentation at the  Library in Alvinston on Thursday Sept 24th at 2:00 pm.
I live in the Alvinston -Glencoe area so I plan to attend. 
If people check, the author will probably be presenting in other locations also. 
Mike Arnsfeld is also making a presentation in the Strathroy Senior Citizens Building on Friday Aug. 28th at 6:30 pm.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on August 29, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
The seminar by Michael Arntfield last night was excellent.  If he has a presentation near you, it is worthwhile to attend.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Bucky on September 11, 2015, 01:46:12 PM
The seminar by Michael Arntfield last night was excellent.  If he has a presentation near you, it is worthwhile to attend.

My copy of Dr Arntfields book Murder City arrived a few days ago.  I'm now reading it for a second time. It makes me wonder where my brain was in 1968 to 1969 . I was just into my teens a kid. It is like I'm reading the Free Press for the first time. It now appears that schools and parents attempted edit the news of these crimes.

Page 181 shows Glen and Ruth Fryer entering a court house in London.  The man in the white shirt and thin black tie, holding open the door. Is the late Reverand Douglas Dakin. He was the Pastor at West Park Baptist Church . The church was situated on Royal York Rd and Hyde Park Rd.

Interesting but not related it's  the same church that Helmuth Buxbaum attended.  The church was built in 1966. Almost in the center of ground zero , of the horrors of the west end of London , in 1968. An interesting and odd coincidence.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Bucky on September 12, 2015, 10:05:09 PM
Chickapey...as you stated in an earlier post ....breadcrumbs if followed will lead somewhere. Great info gathering on your part. Some of this is new info. to me!

So true, small details could open up a case.  Was looking over all the posts. Contacted a few sources.

First the zfryers were listed in West Park Baptist Church phone book of adherents members.

The White Rambler with the Amway sticker .Info is Ruth F was a sales person for Amway. Many it seemed at the time that were into Amway in the London area , came from churches. The Amway coffee  party.  A semi pyramid sales scheme .

The photo of GF sitting in front of ****. The old house with the Lions out front. At one time this was a gentlemans club with a bar and the upper level was rented out for parties. I had the chance once to walk through that building. The bar tender, or manager did the tour. Interesting there were 2 rooms with beds. Allowed for members to sleep it off.

This building is just north and slightly west of London Police HQ .

Since some believe he reads these posts. I always wonder if he ever completed , after his acquittal, the miniature figurines of the court room and people. He was making them from nails, wire, and solder . How I know I'm not at liberty to say.

As for GF walking. He had a horrific gate or limp. He had a serious club foot with about a 3 inch plus lift to his shoe.

****street address removed
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on September 13, 2015, 07:04:12 AM
 A Viable Suspect by Barry Ruhl, which I borrowed from our library,has some very interesting material.  The focus is on other cases but there are a few references to Jackie's.  I plan to attend the book talk on Sept 24th and if anyone has suggestions for questions for the author , please P.M. me or list them online.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 13, 2015, 10:06:06 AM
I hope I am not interrupting here, but I have 2 questions.

There appears to be another Glen Fryer who was a serial rapist and killer. I believe it is a different one..... here is the link.

This guy was American.  This can't be one and the same as GF referred to on JE's thread?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103580/Nicholle-Copplers-remains-rapists-house-Lima-Ohio.html

There is a couple in the United States with the same names GF, RF who run a towing company.. but this may not be one and the same. ? Did they have connections to the US?

jb

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 13, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
I was surprised to see that too jellybean but it's not the same guy and no connection
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on September 13, 2015, 07:31:15 PM
Bucky I am very sure that the young man on the porch is not GF and the house on dundas you mention is likely Buchan House. 

http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=8569
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Bucky on September 14, 2015, 10:24:37 AM
Bucky I am very sure that the young man on the porch is not GF and the house on dundas you mention is likely Buchan House. 

http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=8569

I agree that photo does  not seem to match. Buchan house is the one I was thinking of.

Interesting info Amway opened an office in 1962 Exeter Rd at Whiteoaks Rd.

Sorry about this my computer crashed before giving an explanation .  RF was into Amway so her business took her south again into the area of Towers etc,

Prior to this building at Whiteoaks and Exeter. There was a major distributor on Inkerman St. Let me preface this by saying I'm not assuming Amway had anything to do with this crime. A current check on the subject of Amway will still produce data on Inkerman Streetas a distribution sight.

Inkerman is near  the following schools. Trafalgar, Chesley , Ealing ,Aberdeen and a short jaunt to Alexandra back in the time . The question is did GF meet someone of similar interests from one of the schools and or his wife's business dealings.

I remember Dr Arntfield stating people of similar ilk gravitate to each other.  Just things that make you go Hmm.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Bucky on September 15, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
I was reading in the posts, as to who was Dr Dryburgh. He attended at West Park Baptist Church. He was a Chiropractor.
He lectured on occasion about faith at young peoples meetings. The youth group that had kids from 13 to I'm guessing 17  years of age.  The two eldest Fryer children also attended.

I met him at one such meeting . It was in the family room of a medical Doctor Jack Patton ,also a member and deacon of the same church.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 15, 2015, 08:46:48 AM
Just an early reminder of Jackie's walk coming up on the 4th of October. We will walk our usual route in the footsteps of Jackie herself around the same time she would have been walking
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Bucky on September 17, 2015, 12:34:30 PM
Regarding GF. I know he was acquitted barely . A phrase comes to mind. Follow the money.

GF was a school principal in 1968.  My guess 10k a year job.  He had 4 kids and a wife. A mortgage I assume.

He was not living in opulence . The condition of the 2 cars and exterior of the house demonstrates that point.

A J Baker was not cheap as a lawyer.  He would later become a well respected Provincial Court Judge.

Bail was set at 10k . GF post 5k family friends came up with the other 5k .

A 4 week trial my guess 20k legal fees.  GF was not working as he had resigned from CPRI.

In 1972 GF was teaching in Toronto at  West Park Secondary School , vocational school teaching electronics.

In 1972 he started into the car club.  Bought a collector car Citreon .

So where did the money come from ?

So long shot question. Was GF the patsy for someone who had money. There were two men that talked with JE at one point.  Was GF a friend of a wealthy individual that was mentally bent.

Not accusing but Buxbaum liked younger girls. He liked drugs, and had no issue with paying to have his wife shot.

He was in the members group at West Park.

No accusations made just another thing that makes one go hmm.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 PM
Here is the link about Helmut Buxbaum
http://www.cancrime.com/2010/07/09/imprisoned-killers-go-free-despite-their-denials/

(nice guy!) jb

Killers get out of prison, even when they refuse to tell the truth and accept responsibility for what they have done. Gary Gilbert Foshay (inset) dragged a 48-year-old mother of six from a car along the side of a highway near London, Ontario 26 years ago – on July 5, 1984 – and fired at point blank range, into her left temple, as she begged for her life. Hanna Buxbaum’s murder had been arranged by her cocaine snorting, prostitute-loving husband, who was in the car with her that day. Helmuth Buxbaum paid local hoodlums for the hit. Four men, in addition to Buxbaum, were involved in the conspiracy. Foshay did the dirty work.

read on....

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on September 19, 2015, 12:51:08 PM
Chickapey see you there!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Seelo on September 23, 2015, 09:10:42 AM
Mike Arntfield is doing a presentation and Q&A, Thursday Sept 24th London Central Library, Wolf Performance Hall at 7:00 pm.
$5, but pre-register. Payment made online, by phone with a credit card or in person at any library.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 23, 2015, 01:00:30 PM
Was Jackie's family Baptist?

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 24, 2015, 04:54:07 PM
I believe we were Baptist. I know I am JB
 
We were never associated with any church when Jackie was alive but I firmly believe we were Christian. After Jackie passed away, my mom turned to God & attended, regularly a little church over in old south London. Later, she attended Central Baptist for bible study. My mother's priority was to live her life as a faithful servant to Christ from that time until her death in 1981 & she did.
I believe, but not positive, that the Fryer's were some how involved in her church life.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 25, 2015, 02:15:21 PM
Make of this what ever?????
My mother had my son attend Central Baptist private school & Ruth Fryer often drove him one way or the other for my mother. Ruth Fryer was a constant guest of my mother, at my home before she passed away.
When my brother, his wife & I were at my mothers deathbed in the hospital....Ruth Fryer was already present & stayed until my mother drew her last breath.
No need to ask.....I was offended & shocked but made no fuss due to the circumstances.
My brother says Ruth was at the wake at my home, but I don't remember.
I never saw the woman again until her invitation to their 50th wedding anniversary.
Ruth & Glen Fryer had NO relationship with me....at any point & never will.
I choose my own friends.

Also....I never got the impression that my mother particularly liked Ruth or Glen....not sure what my mom was doing???
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on September 25, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
Just a few of questions that come to mind following Dr. Arntfield's presentation that I hope someone can answer. #1. Where is "the box"? #2. Who has had or will have access to "the box"? #3. Surely most of the information that was gathered for "the box" was the result of investigations by a public servant of the Province of Ontario and the process of how the important information contained in "the box" has been made public completely mystifies me.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 25, 2015, 06:10:33 PM
The "box" was discovered by Dennis Alsop Jr. after Alsop Senior passed away. It was located in the basement of the home following the funeral. Dennis Junior is now the owner of its contents. After sharing the contents with myself & others the box was loaned to Arntfield. After Fred & I met with OPP Dobbins & subordinate, they (OPP) requested they make arrangements to access the info it contained, in case there might be info that they might not have. I told them it was material they already had or should have had. Anyway.....they contacted Dennis Junior & he kindly allowed them to have the "box" & when they (OPP) had copied it all...they surprisingly returned the "box" to Dennis.
Of course...there are probably copies of the material by others whom have been allowed to view it.
 Hope I have answered your question factsfirst.
The "box" has not been made public.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on September 25, 2015, 06:43:04 PM
Thanks Jesa. Incredible chain of events. Wonder why the contents were "loaned to Arntfield" as opposed to anyone else. Imagine how many individuals, outside of Law Enforcement, who now could know the contents of "the box", but not the general public. Dennis Jr. could be in possession of "the box" but the horse has left the barn as far as the information in "the box" is concerned.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 25, 2015, 10:31:16 PM
I do not know if this practice is allowed today.  I suspect that it still does happen. Hopefully rarely.

Detectives take home the files, and in the past,  those who retire also will take home a file that interest them.

Ordinary cops will often take home their notebooks.  I am talking about their own notebooks, and detectives original files on a case that interests them.
In some smaller cop shops, detectives will have a cold case in a box, on the floor, underneath their desk so that they
can work it on it, when they have time.
Good reading for the cleaning lady.
No kidding!!

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on September 26, 2015, 08:27:52 AM
Make of this what ever?????
My mother had my son attend Central Baptist private school & Ruth Fryer often drove him one way or the other for my mother. Ruth Fryer was a constant guest of my mother, at my home before she passed away.
When my brother, his wife & I were at my mothers deathbed in the hospital....Ruth Fryer was already present & stayed until my mother drew her last breath.
No need to ask.....I was offended & shocked but made no fuss due to the circumstances.
My brother says Ruth was at the wake at my home, but I don't remember.
I never saw the woman again until her invitation to their 50th wedding anniversary.
Ruth & Glen Fryer had NO relationship with me....at any point & never will.
I choose my own friends.

Also....I never got the impression that my mother particularly liked Ruth or Glen....not sure what my mom was doing???

Jesa
Since GF was a teacher in the GTA during the 70's does this mean that Ruth stayed in London for some period, ie were they separated and then reconciled?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 26, 2015, 08:39:23 AM
That it does Freeman......they were living apart. Not sure it was a separation but they did reside in different cities.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 26, 2015, 10:15:39 AM
Just a few of questions that come to mind following Dr. Arntfield's presentation that I hope someone can answer. #1. Where is "the box"? #2. Who has had or will have access to "the box"? #3. Surely most of the information that was gathered for "the box" was the result of investigations by a public servant of the Province of Ontario and the process of how the important information contained in "the box" has been made public completely mystifies me.


There are a few media articles on Dennis Alsop Jr. finding his father's personal notes and diaries for these unsolved London cases.  This article explains his motive in sharing the information.

I certainly agree with Dennis Alsop Jr.--he has no reason to apologize for helping these families, who have endured four decades of stoney silence from the OPP.  Their standard line "the case is still open" became a hollow excuse for them to actually do nothing for decades.


http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/28/vox-pop-no-apologies-for-providing-a-bit-of-peace (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/28/vox-pop-no-apologies-for-providing-a-bit-of-peace)


I realize that I have become involved in some old OPP cold cases that basically are none of my business. I have come to realize that by doing so I may have given some hope to families who have lost a loved one to a cold-blooded killer and have never seen those cases resolved.

The reality is that some of these cases will never be resolved unless there is a death-bed confession, and history has shown this to be very unlikely.

The diaries of my late father, a retired OPP detective, provided information which, after hours of deliberation and torment, I decided to share with immediate family members of the young victims.

There was the family who thought their sister had been beaten to a pulp; the family who had to listen to rumours that their sister/niece was a prostitute and deserved what she got, when the memoirs say nothing of the sort; and the family of a boy whose father died believing he had somehow failed his son.

The families were very grateful for a candid glimpse into the final hours of their loved one. They had suffered guilt and despair for about 45 years, blaming themselves for not protecting their family member. The facts, from these diaries, gave grieving families some relief.

For this, I felt I had provided some much needed peace. For this, I don’t apologize.

After my father passed away in January 2012, I couldn’t wait to get my hands on his diaries, which I knew were in the basement. While he was alive, they were off limits, as he adhered strictly to the rule that OPP cases are discussed only with OPP.

These diaries did not disappoint. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn the scope of his very demanding and interesting career with the OPP. Most cases had a crime, investigation and trial.

The enjoyable part about reading these diaries is that they had only facts, no opinions, no suggestions. They were like reading a history book where the author does not try to promote their own conclusion, which is a scarce commodity.

My father also left some fascinating memoirs on cases he worked on through his career, both solved and unsolved. Both my brother and I were never aware of them, but I assure you my father knew they were there. Until he passed away, his mind was always as sharp as a tack. It is my opinion that he left them there for a purpose.

At first I didn’t know what to do with them. I tried to put them in archives but learned they would be locked up for 100 years. As a student of history, I like to know what really happened in the history I lived, so this was not an option to me.

I also knew you just can’t call people out of the blue, but the reality is I could have.

When Anne English took her walk in memory of her slain sister Jackie a year and half ago, I could tell that she was still grieving even after 44 years. I offered to show her what the OPP tried, what they looked at, but I did not offer her a solution as there was none. For the most part there were no solutions for any of the cases in my father’s diaries.

After meeting with Anne, I learned a couple of things: First, there is no closure for these types of cases and, second, the families involved in these unsolved murders network with each other, and for the most part are not happy with the answers they receive from the OPP,

You can understand why these families have been quick to gravitate to Mike Arntfield, a London police officer and Western University professor who studies cold cases. He might not be able to close a case, but his team has brought forth information that families were not aware of.

All the families want and deserve is some honesty. They are tired of the pat answers. If it can’t be closed, tell them. If it can be solved, do it. Use all the tools available, both external and internal. The process is not important, the result is.

As you can imagine I have had many sleepless nights, but I have been guided by a quote from a London Free Press article dated Dec. 24, 1969, in which Chief Insp. James McBride states, “When it comes to murder, the gloves are off. We are after a killer and if we hurt someone’s feeling in our effort to get him . . .” and the statement trails off as investigators scurry in and out of the make-do homicide office.

Dennis Alsop Jr. is a London resident.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on September 26, 2015, 10:26:16 AM
 Here is another media article on the subject in case anyone missed it.

Quote from Dennis Alsop Jr:

"Alsop’s son agrees the OPP investigation should be rekindled. He emphasized they already know everything his father knew.

What’s clear to Dennis Jr. is that his dad was haunted by what was left unfinished and wanted nothing more than to solve the cases."

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer (http://www.lfpress.com/2014/03/21/boxing-in-a-serial-killer)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 26, 2015, 12:41:45 PM
Thanks for sharing this Have Faith.

I am forever grateful to Dennis Jr. for having the courage to share the numerous avenues that were travelled by his father & LE, in the early investigation of Jackie's murder. I have read & seen things that have given me some peace.

I know other families have also been grateful for the knowledge they have gained by info in the box.
 
My personal opinion is....we have every right to know as much as we want to know, at this point in time.

Although, these cases are "open" for all intents & purposes they are "forgotten" & "abandoned".

For those of us still actively involved in resolving these cases, we have benefitted greatly.

The Alsop's both Senior & Junior are/were amazing men & my heroes.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 26, 2015, 01:17:10 PM
question: I wonder why Alsop Sr. brought the box home when he retired, in the first place? Was he afraid that his work would be lost if left
in the London office?  Why didn't he leave copies of his investigation in the office?

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 26, 2015, 01:36:25 PM
Jellybean

Alsop made copies of the originals (documents & photos) & brought them home. Now I am assuming here....to work on after hours. Also his daily diaries of where he went & who he interviewed.

I can imagine by his notes, that he spent endless hours going over & over the material.

His daily job involved much more than a single case.

This material was gathered over the years....& some of these cases haunted him.

This speaks of his devotion to the victims, Jackie being one.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on September 26, 2015, 02:06:17 PM
I whole heartedly agree with Jesa.  The sharing of Dennis Sr's work and diaries by his son, Dennis Jr. were a gift to our families.  After more than 4 decades of stonewalling and stock lines, we had the opportunity to witness first hand the work of a single brave man and the dedication he had to all of us.  I don't think I'd be overstepping by saying we're all grateful.  These two men brought us a measure of peace and understanding...casting light and hope into our darkness.  I sincerely hope that the OPP is taking full advantage of Det. Alsop's journals, Det. Arntfield's insights, and applying current technology to solving these long lost cases...it's way past time.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 26, 2015, 04:33:42 PM
 Jesa;  Thank you very much for clarifying.  For while there, I was wondering. ???

I do not question the integrity of the Alsop's by any means.  In fact, these records gave you a few answers.

What a shame, that you had to wait all of these years to receive anything. How often do we hear; "We cannot release any
information, as the case is still ongoing".  Some of these cases are 40 years old.  "On going"?

" On going" into the back room of the back room of the back room, in their cardboard boxes.

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 27, 2015, 07:18:02 AM
Dennis Jr didn't have to give these boxes of clues to anyone. He could have tossed them in the pile to go out and no one would have known but he decided to give them to the right people. He is made of the same cloth as his father. As for Dennis Sr I think he was a true cop and I wonder what he could have accomplished if he had today's technology. He worked these cases until his last breath and I think he still does from beyond the grave. He was even working the cases after he moved to the Toronto area and retired. I think the answer is in there somewhere but in most of these cases, one of the most important parts is missing... London Police and OPP are not and have never worked together on these and I think a lot can be gained from it As well, it only takes one tip to solve these cases. That's been proven  in a lot of the cases you read about from the US... cases being solved thanks to one tip from the right person. This is why these cases need to stay in the public eye... to make sure people don't forget the message
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: elsie on September 29, 2015, 12:15:54 PM
The presentation by Barry Ruhl regarding "A Viable Suspect" was very interesting and informative.  The book is a good read.   "Uncharged is not necessarily unsolved"  is a very apt sayiing for to this suspect.  I would recommend attending presentations by Barry Ruhl also. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Seelo on September 29, 2015, 06:20:42 PM
Dennis Alsop Jr. & Mike Arntfield have re-ignited the need for answers for many. I didn't know Jackie, but a life-long and dear friend of mine certainly did.  I have walked by her side throughout her struggles with Jackie's case for many years. I'd like to think that this 'box' has not ripped the band-aid off an old wound, but rather, lit a fire.

We attended Mike Arntfield's presentation last Thursday at the library. It was well done, but was not what we were expecting, although I am unsure what it was that we were expecting. 

After the presentation, we met a couple and stood and talked with them for some time... about the cases and even reminisced about mutual acquaintances. It was certainly an interesting chat, but we didn't exchange names. If you are reading this message, please private message me as we would like to ask you a question.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 29, 2015, 07:53:35 PM
The "box" was discovered by Dennis Alsop Jr. after Alsop Senior passed away. It was located in the basement of the home following the funeral. Dennis Junior is now the owner of its contents. After sharing the contents with myself & others the box was loaned to Arntfield. After Fred & I met with OPP Dobbins & subordinate, they (OPP) requested they make arrangements to access the info it contained, in case there might be info that they might not have. I told them it was material they already had or should have had. Anyway.....they contacted Dennis Junior & he kindly allowed them to have the "box" & when they (OPP) had copied it all...they surprisingly returned the "box" to Dennis.
Of course...there are probably copies of the material by others whom have been allowed to view it.
 Hope I have answered your question factsfirst.
The "box" has not been made public.

As per Jesa, that is the story of the box. I too was surprised that the police returned the box. My expectation would have been that they would keep it.  But on seconds thoughts, they might have surmised that copies were made of the contents by the owner before turning it over. I don't know that was the case or not, and it doesn't matter.

But,, what have the police done with it to further their investigation? Have they re-opened the investigation? Or, will they claim that the investigation has never been closed!!
I wish I had more confidence in them. But, what I think is very immaterial really.  It is how the families feel that is of the utmost importance.  Yes, Dennis Jr. did a great service to the families.  He could have easily given it to the police and be done with it, OR have kept in the basement.

 Something told him not to.... something told him to go another route FIRST.  Thank God he did.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 30, 2015, 08:16:16 AM
I have met with Dennis Jr on a few occasions and he said he initially brought the box to a museum in the area of Clinton ( I can't remember where, exactly) and they said they'd be happy to take the box for historical value but would have to keep it closed until 100 years  had passed due to privacy issues. He thought to hell with that and did not leave it. Very soon after he saw the news about the walk for Jackie which is held each October and reached out to Anne. The rest is history. I think Dennis Sr made sure he could somehow work these cases from beyond the grave
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2015, 10:15:44 PM
To all who joined us tonight to symbolically walk with Jackie again this year, thank you is inadequate. Actions speak louder than words & my heart is full knowing that people still remember her & show her that she doesn't walk alone. Family, friends, acquaintances, children she babysat, members from unsolved, the JE crew,  & some who never knew her, & others who are present in spirit, came out to show support & make sure Jackie is not forgotten. Even a note from from Korea from a previous walker to say Jackie was remembered .God bless each & every one. 46 years & still people acknowledging a lovely person, no longer with us....but very much in our hearts.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 05, 2015, 11:01:32 PM
Jackie was remembered here and world wide. Another lovely walk with some wonderful new faces along with the familiar ones who are more like family now. It speak volumes about the kind of person Jackie was when a little girl she babysat is there along with family and Jackie's best friend V.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on October 08, 2015, 04:24:44 PM
I was out at the bridge today near Otterville. I know there are others who might want to go out there in the future. I asked my friend to tally the kms and to write down all the exits and turns. The GPS guided us so it took the quickest route from Wellington Rd at the 401. I have been there a few times but always leaving a different area so this was my first time taking this route.

(Total time - 45 minutes)  Distance - 62.5 kms

- from the Wellington Bridge take Highway 401 East for 32 km to Exit 218 Highway 19 S Tillsonburg (20 mins to exit)
- drive 16 kms on Highway 19 (also known as Plank Line)
- Turn left onto Ostrander Rd
- drive 11 kms on Ostrander Rd and turn right onto Middletown Line
- drive 2.1 kms and turn left at Cornell Rd
- drive 1.4 kms to bridge

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 08, 2015, 08:22:38 PM
It always struck me as an odd place to leave someone. There are houses nearby and it seems someone would have to know the area well to know the bridge was there. What a horrible place
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Sunshine31 on October 09, 2015, 07:18:31 AM
RIP Jackie <3
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mark arnett on October 25, 2015, 07:47:08 PM
What highschool did Jackie English attend
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: mark arnett on October 25, 2015, 07:53:37 PM
Wasn't jackie dunleavy found just up the street from her home on Oxford west at sanatorium rd
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on October 25, 2015, 08:30:01 PM
Wasn't jackie dunleavy found just up the street from her home on Oxford west at sanatorium rd

Hi Mark,

There is also a thread for jackie Dunleavy on the site. That may answer any questions you may have in regard her murder.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=707.0 (http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=707.0)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 26, 2015, 04:39:23 PM
Hi Mark....Jackie attended grade 9 @ South Secondary & the following year...  transferred to H.B. Beal. I believe that the move from Elmwood Ave. to Kent St was the reason. South would not have been in the area, according to the boards boundary.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 31, 2016, 03:31:32 PM

http://www.lfpress.com/2016/08/30/dennis-alsop-jr-fighting-to-get-back-the-diaries-of-his-father-who-probed-some-of-the-areas-biggest-unsolved-crimes-the-london-man-is-taking-the-opp-to-small-claims-court


Dennis Alsop Jr.: Fighting to get back the diaries of his father, who probed some of the area's biggest unsolved crimes, the London man is taking the OPP to small claims court

Dennis Alsop Jr. says he lent his dad’s work diaries to the Ontario Provincial Police in hopes of solving some of London’s biggest crime mysteries.
 
Now, he says, they won’t give them back.
 
“As far as I’m concerned, that’s a renege of their promise. And all I wanted was a good photo-copy of them back. They won’t give me that,” said the Londoner who found the diaries of his father, retired OPP Supt. Dennis Alsop Sr., shortly after his father’s death in 2012.
 
Alsop is now taking the unusual step of filing a lawsuit in small claims court against the OPP, hoping to get his property returned as promised.
 
“I can understand if they can do something with those diaries, they need the originals,” he said. “But the truth of the fact is they’ve done nothing with those diaries for the last two years except sit on them.”
 
Alsop’s father was the main investigator during a string of unsolved murders of young people in London and the surrounding area in the 1960s and 1970s, including the cases of Frankie Jensen, who was found murdered in 1968, Jackie English, who was abducted and murdered in 1969 and Priscilla Merle who died in 1972.
 
His notes offered some clues to the cases and were the backdrop for Western University criminologist Michael Arntfield’s recent book, Murder City.
 
“I really don’t want to give up the diaries because they are a fascinating glimpse into my father’s life,” Alsop said.
 
From his early days as a small-town cop in Ingersoll, through his time as an identification officer and respected investigator, the elder Alsop’s 27 books chronicle the career cop’s journey in small snippets.
 
Only the years between 1958 and 1963 were missing from the collection that Alsop Jr. found in a cardboard box stored in the basement of his parent’s Mississauga home.
 
He’s convinced that his dad kept the files for good reason and hoped someone might be able to pull together his clues using modern-day investigation tools.
 
“My father had a sense of history,” Alsop said. “He knew they were an interesting time capsule of the London area.”
 
Two and a half years ago, Alsop lent the OPP the investigation files — different than the diaries — found about the English and Merle cases on the condition that he would get copies of them.
 
“Six months later, they returned them to me,” he said, but added that they really wanted the diaries.
 
“I lent them to the OPP so they would work on it,” he said of the original books.
 
“Six months ago I got a hold of them and I was advised that a deputy commissioner doesn’t want to give them back to me.”
 
Alsop told the OPP he wanted them back. He was told that “it wasn’t resolved.”
 
He hasn’t been contacted since, and said he knows “they won’t contact me again to say it’s official.”
 
Frustrated, Alsop weighed his legal options and decided his best bet was through the small claims court that will handle cases worth up to $25,000.
 
“I don’t know what other way to do it,” he said.
 
Not that Alsop can put a value on the books.
 
“I’m not interested in the money. The money is irrelevant. It’s the stories that are fascinating. Their problem is I’m willing to share these stories with people.”
 
Alsop said the stories that emerge from the books start with a sense of fun and adventure. But at the time of Jensen’s death, the tone changed markedly.
 
“This was a bad omen and the diaries just screamed that at you. Things were changing.”
 
What followed was an alarming number of violent, unsolved deaths of young women and men. Alsop’s father was in the thick of trying to solve all of them.
 
Most prevalent was the English case, a murder Alsop said haunted his father long after his retirement in 1979, along with the unsolved murder of Western University student Lynda White, who disappeared in 1968 and whose remains were discovered in Bayham Township, in Elgin County, in 1973.
 
Alsop still has the packing slip that was sent with the books to his father at the time of his retirement, indicating that the OPP had agreed to give up the notes.
 
“We didn’t hide them in a cupboard so the OPP wouldn’t know about them,” Alsop said. “They gave them to him. He had them.”
 
The OPP had no comment on Alsop’s small claim.
 
“If there is a matter which is before the court, the OPP does not speak to those issues until the proceedings are complete,” said OPP Sgt. Peter Leon, provincial media relations co-ordinator.
 
“If there is civil litigation that is anticipated to take place, we need to allow that process to transpire before we make any comments at this time.”
 
The case could take months to resolve.
 
Alsop’s fear is that the diaries have been destroyed, the same fate given to old notes and files of retired officers.
 
“I would be so disappointed,” he said

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on August 31, 2016, 08:24:35 PM
Dr. Arnfeld (author of Murder City) has weighed in on the OPP refusal to return Alsop's diaries to his son.

http://www.lfpress.com/2016/08/31/dennis-alsop-jr-move-to-keep-late-cops-documents-shows-force-brass-dont-know-limits-of-power-academic-says

The OPP should be investigated to find out why they won’t return the personal work diaries of a retired officer to his son, says a Western University criminology professor.

Other than the late Supt. Dennis Alsop Sr.’s son, probably no one knows the value of work diaries better than criminologist Michael Arntfield, who used them as a road map for his book, Murder City.

“If a citizen did this to somebody else, police would be called and if charges weren’t laid, there would at least be a investigation into the motive for it,” Arntfield said.

Arntfield is supporting Dennis Alsop Jr.’s small claims suit against the OPP for the return of 27 diaries chronicling the work of the dogged investigator during some of the area’s darkest crimes.

“I think a judge’s order and a strongly worded decision even in small claims court would be a tremendous step forward in terms of accountability here,” he said.

“Some pencil-pushing rube in Orillia unilaterally decided that (the books) should be moth-balled somewhere to deprive him of ownership.”

Alsop Sr. was the main investigator of many unsolved murder cases through the late 1960s and early ’70s. His son found his books in a cardboard box at his dad’s house after his death.

The books gave a daily summary of his father’s work from his early days as a beat officer in Ingersoll to his work as a major crime investigator. They also offered clues to some of the most confounding cases in London including the deaths of Frankie Jensen, Jackie English, Lynda White and Priscilla Merle.

Alsop Jr. lent the books to the OPP after they had borrowed and returned copies of his father’s files.

Six months ago, Alsop Jr. was told that an OPP deputy commissioner didn’t want to give them back.

Arntfield said the books have historic and cultural value. He doesn’t recall seeing anything that indicated they were OPP property.

No stranger to criticizing the OPP, Arntfield said the decision not to return the books is misguided.

This decision, he said, “takes the cake and then some.”

“Once again, we’re dealing with disordered management who don’t know the limits of their own power and don’t know how to interpret the law properly and don’t recognize that these are privately held records that are historically and culturally significant,” he said.

“I’m sure the courts will agree they have illegally seized them through artifice and are depriving effectively the community, the victim’s families and the rightful owner of keeping them.”

Alsop Jr., he said, “trusted the OPP probably more than he should have” and believed they wouldn’t renege on their promise.

He believes the OPP have “a self-serving reason” and “have decided they are prepared to dupe him into turning them over, which is theft.”

jsims@postmedia.com

twitter.com/JaneatLFPre


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on September 01, 2016, 05:07:55 AM
Personally I think that all the families and everyone here on unsolved that have helped us need to stand together in support of Dennis Alsop and Michael Arntfield.  His Father's private journals have helped many of us to find a measure of peace.  It is comforting to know how diligently this one man worked on our behalf.  This is his legacy and it rightfully belongs to his son.  The OPP must return Dennis Alsop's private property, lent in good faith in an effort to assist the police.  Detective Alsop's journals tell our stories too. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jobo on September 01, 2016, 05:18:20 AM
Anything I can do to help...I gladly will.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on September 01, 2016, 07:13:00 AM
Thanks Jobo...we need to spread the word
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 01, 2016, 10:57:25 AM
Were these private journals - a diary of sort - or was it notes taken during active investigation?
If they were private journals -then that is another matter.

However, this part bothers me;
Alsop Jr. lent the books to the OPP after they had borrowed and returned copies of his father’s files.  Were these actual police files? - or did Mr. Alsop create his file at home?

While I am at it - this reminds me of;
Re: Notes and files taken while on duty - although this may not be Alsop's case.

I have always been against detectives taking home their notes, and files retired or not.
Yet, it was common practice.  And many records have been missing or lost in murder cases, as a result of that practice.

Very difficult to reopen a cold case, when the records from the original detective are missing from the "case room".

Detectives work for their force, and the notes and records are the property of the force,at least that is  the way that I see it.

The culture of allowing any officer to take home his notes, was prevalent during that time, and it is the higher ups who are to blame for allowing this practice.

And I think that it is terrible, that the OPP reneged on their promise to return them.
If I read the article correctly, it was a higher up who stepped in, and said NO - (they will not be returned.)

Alsop's Sr's notebooks that contain other observations should be returned (his early years, etc)  If the cops are squeamish about those parts that contain info into the cases in question, then keep that part, I guess.

As to secrecy, it is too late now,  with the cases in question, as much of it was published by Arntfield.

But that is up to the courts to decide.

Now that the OPP have the records, it is high time that they work diligently on these files, and not allow them to sit in the back room.


Frankly, I am sick and tired of their excuses, when it comes to Cold Cases -re: we cannot share any information as it is still under investigation -

I think what they mean by that, at least in cold cases; "oh, we might get a tip and will have to look into it," thus the case is still under investigation.

Families want AND DESERVE answers.

PEACE

JB

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 01, 2016, 04:48:31 PM
One of the articles states that not only did Dennis Jr have the police word he would get his property back but the packing slip from 1979 stating that they were no longer opp property any more when OPP sent them to Dennis SR. The OPP should be ashamed of themselves.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 01, 2016, 04:57:37 PM
Perhaps he has a packing slip, but I would be shocked to no end, if the OPP sent police business to a retired cop stating that it is no longer OPP property. Not on the murders!!
Police business stays as police business.  And don't we know that!

Perhaps this packing slip was for other items that  belonged to Mr. Alsop Sr.of  a personal nature, perhaps from his desk or locker.

Unless that packing slip itemizes the contents of the box, then he, (Jr.) may not be able to prove his point.

Arnfield referred to them as "Work Diaries"

Alsop Sr. was a cop - he kept his Work Diaries at home.  This is police business is it not?
Regardless of the length of time Alsop Sr. had them, it could still be considered the property of the police force for whom he worked.

The whole article is confusing, anyway.  Nothing makes sense. imo.

Here is another paragraph in an earlier article.

"Alsop still has the packing slip that was sent with the books to his father at the time of his retirement, indicating that the OPP had agreed to give up the notes.
 

“We didn’t hide them in a cupboard so the OPP wouldn’t know about them,” Alsop said. “They gave them to him. He had them.”

So, that packing slip is the key to his case. Was there a letter in the box from the OPP agreeing to give up the notes?  I doubt if it would be on a packing slip.
I think someone at the OPP screwed up, in sending them, and since Alsop Sr's books were mentioned to the press, and part of the contents published,  the cops tried to quietly get them back, before anything more from the Working Diaries is given out to the public or press.

jb 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on September 01, 2016, 06:29:18 PM
Dennis said the packing slip gave his father the notes and diaries free and clear.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 01, 2016, 07:00:56 PM
Jungleland welcome to Unsolved.
And thanks for your post.  :)

I might have taken a very unpopular stand - no doubt. But there it is...... and not much that I can do to change how I feel about it.

I wonder why one Detective was assigned to all of these complicated cases?  Hardly fair to the man, in my opinion. Or was he the only one qualified on the force? Did he not have a partner at the very least? IF  he had a partner, I wonder what his theories were.- or did Alsop Sr have to work on his own? It would be a very lonely feeling, I would think.

No one could ever take away Alsop Sr's dedication that is for sure. I admire the tenacity of the man as he never gave up.

I wonder who is working on these OPP files now? No excuse now, as they have all of Alsop's notes and working diaries.
Surely at least one of these files have been reopened in the "Cold Case" room?

Young Jacqueline would be a good start.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on September 01, 2016, 08:01:31 PM
Speaking of Cold Cases- this is an eye opener.

After 3 years - no tips - it is generally ruled as a Cold Case.
Many work on cold cases when they have free time, and what officer has free time these days?

Canada's Cold Cases

http://www.lfpress.com/2016/06/06/canadas-cold-case-units-dig-into-unsolved-crimes-some-still-haunt-investigators

{snippts}

Canadian police forces handle cold cases differently. Police in Montreal and Ottawa do not have dedicated cold case teams, while Ontario's York Regional Police has two detectives working full-time on long-unsolved murders.

n British Columbia's lower mainland, the RCMP's Integrated Homicide Investigation Team has five detectives who look into cold cases dating back to 2003.

There is no national cold case database and no known national data exists, according to multiple forces interviewed by The Canadian Press.

Canada is a uniquely difficult place for cold case detectives, according to both academics and investigators.

They point the finger at stringent privacy laws that limit the effectiveness of a DNA data bank combined with bureaucratic court processes and limited forensic and financial resources -- all of which leave Canada's resolution rate lagging behind those in countries that include the United States and the United Kingdom.

For the families of victims, cold cases mean struggling for years -- even decades -- with questions about who killed their loved ones and why. The pain doesn't retreat, but for some families, resolution helps, although closure never truly comes.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on September 02, 2016, 05:20:41 AM
Welcome Jungleland.  You've presented some interesting thoughts.  Supt. Alsop was involved with the earliest cases and at the time, it was common practice to work on one's notes at home.  When you think about it,  what normal person workng on a child murder, would be able to turn off their brain simply because they've crossed their own threshold?  Supt. Alsop was a Father himself.  There are ways to avoid being charged but I'd say the most effective, once suspected, would be to claim some form of mental ailment...we've all read the line "mentally unfit to stand trial".  The cases discussed in Dr. Arntfield's book are decades old and some of the perpetrators have already died but that doesn't mean that the victim families should be left in the dark.  Though there is no such thing as "closure" there can be comfort in learning a name after decades of searching for answers.  As to vigilantism, the named perpetrators in Dr. Arntfield's book are either dead or incarcerated. If his book and Supt. Alsop's notes and diaries encourage further investigation into those still unsolved historical cases it can only be of benefit to all of us. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: rkay on October 04, 2016, 06:41:35 PM
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc220/rkay7/JackieOct42013pic_zps68953c1e.jpg)


In honour of Jackie tonight.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 04, 2016, 10:07:28 PM
Thank you for posting this Rkay

Jackie, you never walk alone.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on October 05, 2016, 05:05:10 PM
Thanks rkay and chickapey. You can add my name to those who are not interested in ever forgetting Jackie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 05, 2016, 08:40:22 PM
absolutely FactsFirst. You were missed last night but we all know how life gets sometimes. Hopefully next year if  not sooner
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on October 13, 2016, 07:40:39 AM
I sincerely hope the crowd continues to grow for Jackie's walk each year.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on December 16, 2016, 11:22:39 PM
Thanks Long Gone for finding this article. Since media articles disappear over time, I thought I would copy and paste relevant excerpts. I would like to suggest that you post this on Lynne Harper's board as well. Ruhl's story is well known, although I have never read where he included Jackie in his list of possible victims.

 Ruhl, 72, wrote the book titled A Viable Suspect, an investigative piece chronicling 30 years with the focus on one man who he considers could possibly be the killer connected to a string of murders along with Harper’s. The novel came out in October 2014 and the hunches are directed towards a male who the resigned lawman deemed as a potential serial killer of numerous females in the area. A book Lawson said he had purchased and read.

“From 1951-1959 he travelled that whole area (Clinton), so he would really know the (surroundings) and what a dark individual. I think he planted Lynne there because it was within about a mile of 700 airmen, Ruhl told the Expositor during a phone interview.

“What a smart idea, instead of dumping her somewhere along the highway, he brings her back, so obviously suspects are going to be looked at in terms of that area and that’s exactly what happened with Truscott.”

The man Ruhl refers to as the pseudonym name “Larry Talbot,” for the respect of his family’s privacy, first came in contact with the Sgt. in 1971 when he said the man successfully broke into his cottage in Sauble Beach and sexually assaulted his fiancé. After fleeing the scene, Ruhl chased the suspected assailant, resulting in a struggle in which Talbot used a pellet gun as a weapon to strike Ruhl with. Eventually after being shot and struck with the gun Ruhl’s records declared he was able to arrest him. His book stated Talbot would later receive probation for the crime.

“It bothered me through the cottage invasion, all the way through my life and even today, he doesn’t leave. I think about him everyday of my life,” Ruhl said.

Following the extensive investigation of the alleged killer, which would ultimately lead to him being removed from the case, Ruhl was determined to continue and delve. The southwestern Ontario native decided to mimic Kim Rossmo, who is the first working police officer in the country to obtain a criminology doctorate, specializing in geographical profiling. Ruhl’s book A Viable Suspect referred to the degree as providing importance and highlighted an analysis for a lucrative approach at finding a killer. It stated, a need to potentially bury a body, the murderer is more likely to do so in the vicinity he or she is familiar with. Ruhl created a datasheet from murders and crimes, pointing out the specific times and geographical locations connected to Talbot.

Pauline Ivy Dudley, 17, from Oakville was found murdered in 1973 about 15 minutes from Talbot’s house.

Christine Prince, from Toronto was killed in 1982 approximately seven minutes away from the residence of Talbot.

Delia Adriano, 25, from Oakville was murdered 26 minutes away from Talbot’s dwelling.

Lynne Harper, 12, from Vanastra was discovered in 1959 at Lawson’s Bush, which was a place constantly visited for his specific job.

Jacqueline English’s, 15-year-old body was discovered in 1969 near Tillsonburg and 19-year-old Lynda White’s skeleton remains were found in Norfolk County in 1973. Ruhl believes this could be Talbot because he had customers in the area.

Lastly, Valerie Stevens, a 19-year-old pregnant woman from Toronto, was found in 1992 no more than 41 min of where Talbot lived.

  “If you read the book by Barry Ruhl, most of the girls (who) disappeared and were found murdered were hitchhikers,” Lawson commented.

To extend his hunch of Talbot being the killer, Ruhl indicated at the Truscott trial the accused murderer’s exact words were the car that purportedly stopped and picked up Harper was that of a 1959 Chevy Bel Air. He also described the colour to be grey.  Talbot drove a similar model in the same time frame, but his was a 1957 Chevy Bel Air mentioned Ruhl. Both Lawson and Ruhl believe if the killer is still around the chance of them being alive is slim. Ruhl is not sure if the cases are being further looked at after the book was published.

“What all police do, is they keep everything kind of in the closet. If they’re not saying anything about it that’s okay, my presentation is about cold cases including Lynne Harper and the fact (is) that there’s a lot of women that have been murdered,” he said.

“My question to the police is, are you setting up a cold case squad or are you looking at these cold cases.”

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: lostlinganer on December 17, 2016, 08:43:29 AM
excellent LG and HF !  Right on!
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on December 17, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Excellent article.... There was mention of a Sgt who was posted at the base, (in a book about Truscott, I believe.)

This Sgt died of liver disease.  It was many years ago, and I do remember that quite clearly, but of course, the year escapes me.

No, I am not forgetful, it is just that the information was important, but not the year.

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on January 02, 2017, 05:46:45 PM
I believe it was 1975
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Vanessa Brown on January 03, 2017, 11:24:52 AM
This is my first post here, but I've read the entire thread on Jackie and the other related London murders.

I'm very heartened to see this thread pick up again. When Unsolved Canada was down the last few days, I was really worried that this resource would be lost, although I have saved everything at home.

Want to ask you folks about some things, but need to know the guidelines. If I have specific names of POI's, can they be mentioned here? Want to do some deeper sleuthing.

Also, it would be a great idea to get this thread over on Websleuths. There's a group there working on the animal murders, and our American friends also love to help out. There's a wider network and there are profilers and ex LE online at Websleuths. What do you think?

I know some of you personally but I only know three people's monikers on here, so if you want to PM me and tell me who you are, that would help too.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on January 03, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
Quote
Want to ask you folks about some things, but need to know the guidelines. If I have specific names of POI's, can they be mentioned here? Want to do some deeper sleuthing.

You can only name POI's if they have been publicly named by Police as a suspect or if they have been charged with a crime.

Thanks,
Debbie


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on January 03, 2017, 01:19:39 PM
Vanessa Brown: Welcome to Unsolved Canada. 

Thanks for posting.

Thank you for the invite re: Websleuths.  I do read websleuths, and you read us, because we are all working towards the same cause.

I believe we are the only two sites that are dedicated to the murdered and the missing.

As you know, Unsolved concentrates on Canada's missing and murdered people, although we do have an American section within our forum. Of course there is nothing stopping us from setting up threads for Murdered and Missing Americans, and we very often will.

My own personal reason for concentrating on Unsolved, is that Canada is often overlooked when it comes to this topic and this forum covers as much of Canada as possible.

Unfortunately, we have our fair share of murders, serial killers, and missing persons and so the need for a site such as Unsolved Canada is great.

Yes, law enforcement, do read us - to get the tone of the citizens, and also look for any new information that they may not be aware of.  We also have a few members who are ex cops, as well as reporters etc.

You might have noticed, that we do not carry advertising.  Our admin and moderator is a volunteer.

The owner of Unsolved,  Chris, saw the need for a Canadian site to cover our own people and although we are small in comparison to WS, we still do make a difference.

Our site is very easy to "move around in" - "User friendly" This is important to some members who are not tecky, including myself. lol

It is a well known secret that WS and UC members do share case information, back and forth, wherever helpful,  and that is a good thing.

Hope you drop in every now and then, and I will drop in to "see" you.


JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: debbiec on January 03, 2017, 01:32:15 PM
Nicely said JB :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Vanessa Brown on January 04, 2017, 10:28:48 AM
Awesome! Thank you for answering my questions!

Okay, so when it comes to doing that research I mentioned, without specifying POI's, perhaps someone here can help me with some questions about research methods. I have used the London Room, Weldon, online archives, the resources here, etc. But I am interested in finding some employment records from the  1980s or information on trucking routes in Canada in the 1980s. I'm also interested in finding court transcripts that I've been told are missing. I have found one appeal which I have in full that refers to the original trial and has some great info, but I'd like to get the originals for the POI's that are mentioned here (I'm sure you can all surmise).

Did anyone get copies of these transcripts in the past before they went missing?

I have tried the Ontario transcription service, calling the individual court houses and contacting the Archives of Ontario.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on January 04, 2017, 10:38:41 AM
Welcome to Unsolved Canada Vanessa and thank you for your interest in researching our historical cases.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on January 04, 2017, 12:31:57 PM
Hi Vanessa:

Try - https://www.canlii.org/en/

Canadian Legal Information Institute - General (Section)

and -
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/

Federal court cases (Supreme Court Section)

Trucking Routes - 1980's

Try -
City of London - Transportation Dept
and -
Province of Ontario Transportation
and -
Canadian Trucking Association.

JB
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 17, 2017, 06:13:42 PM
Remembering your birthday today Jackie...with love always
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 17, 2017, 08:35:26 PM

Thinking of Jackie on her birthday, and also of her loving and dedicated sister Jesa.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jellybean on April 17, 2017, 08:51:53 PM
Me too!  Especially Jesa.  Jackie's family must be extremely proud of Jesa.
Jesa, you are so courageous, and you are a Rock.
Always there for Jackie.

jb
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on April 18, 2017, 05:38:18 AM
never forgotten
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on October 02, 2017, 01:20:23 PM
This Wednesday, lets make sure Jackie doesn't walk alone
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2017, 09:54:41 PM
I realize that I repeat myself but I am at a loss when it comes to expressing my awe to the faithful, loyal group that return year after year to walk with Jackie. I am forever amazed by their genuine dedication to my sister & grateful for the help & support they afford me. Jackie will NEVER walk alone.....they walk with her & I am blessed by their presence. Thank you is inadequate....but thank you to each of you & the many others with thoughts of Jackie tonight.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on October 05, 2017, 10:49:00 AM
so good to read...thank you Jesa
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 07, 2018, 06:42:34 PM
With regard to post 204...where I state Jackie had a new nightie & slippers to reportedly attend a slumber party hosted by Mary Lou as a guest of Marilyn's has now been confirmed that the slumber party was actually on Friday Oct. 3/69 & Marilyn arrived late.

I went to visit Marilyn today & confronted her with the lie & lack of alibi.

Marilyn said she must have made a mistake & when asked where she was & what she did on Sat. Oct. 4th said probably watching hockey on tv but couldn't really remember! I said I found that odd that she couldn't recollect where she was the night her friend was murdered.

Also her "friends" drove them on the Friday night & let Jackie off downtown & they then delivered Marilyn to the slumber party.

I asked her if her "friend" knew her brother & she said yes but again jumped to Jim's defence. I wasn't interested in listening to that crap again.
She stressed how "they" had tried to kill her for a year & I assured her she was no threat to them or her & I wouldn't be speaking now.

Marilyn reminded me that she had been given sodium pentathol??? & had lied under its influence. She stated that is how "strong willed" she is as she looked me in the face.

I asked her if Jackie was looking at her as her head was bashed in & she replied 'no because I wasn't there.'

I actually felt sorry for her as she looks & acts like a woman in her eighties & told her so. Marilyn commented on her exceptional writing abilities because of her experiences in life.

So much for this....I will never believe that Marilyn wasn't there with my sister but I also believe that as her suicide note stated the killers name/s will go with her to the grave.


Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 07, 2018, 07:30:27 PM
i am so happy you got to say your piece to her. To know she has no alibi for that night and have it confirmed by ML is huge. I too believe she was there when this happened to Jackie. She has as much blood on her hands as the rest of the people who were there and has been through a pretty shitty life because of this and the guilt.

Thankful for MLC for telling what she knew... just proving that even a small detail she thought was no big deal really is a big deal. Jackie is so proud of you and maybe Marilyn will take the secret to her grave but that doesn't mean the truth will never come out. One little detail gave us this info... the next little bit of truth may be the one to tip the scales.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on March 07, 2018, 07:34:27 PM
Chick....you found MLC for us. Jackie's team has been devoted & steadfast. Fred & I had wondered about this for decades & thanks to you, we now know. It really is a "team" that never gives up. Thank you so much
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on March 09, 2018, 04:18:34 PM
Jesa... anything I can do to help is the least I can do. Jackie, Frankie and Donna have brought so many people together and not just for their cases. Lifelong bonds have been cemented. If I could thank them all I would.

Finding MLC and her own compassion to help is proof that it will be ordinary people that will solve these cases. The police have had 50 years. Now it's our turn. Maybe they become jaded after a while with all they see and do in their jobs but how someone can meet family and friends of these young women and children and not feel the need to act is beyond me. I hope JEB sees this development and can feel some kind of relief too.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jensen on March 13, 2018, 05:36:28 AM
Great teamwork!  The answers will come, with or without this miserable creature. 
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Declan on March 15, 2018, 07:50:02 AM
Remarkable new information!   Such an important detail.  So many years in the telling.

I have tried to go back through the previous posts to remind myself of some details, but many of the attachments (all?) are now missing.   If anyone can provide clarification - it might be helpful for those new to this thread to connect the dots. 


Friday the 3rd:
   On this date, both Jackie and MH were working at the Met.  After work - rather than taking the bus, they accepted a ride with two men.  These are variously referred to as the "beer swilling" men, and there was some indication from news reports that these two men were from out of town, and had been at a hockey game @ the Ice Gardens next to the Met.    Thus, their meeting with Jackie and MH was purely by chance.  However, one (or both) indicated jokingly that they might drop back to the Met, the next evening (for a free hotdog?).     These two men dropped Jackie and MH off at different locations.   We now know that MH was dropped off to attend the pyjama party, whereas Jackie was dropped off downtown.   MH arrived late to the pyjama party, and Jackie (even though invited as a guest of MH) did not attend the party.

Was it also Friday the 3rd when Betty Harrison was at the Met and noticed the bushy haired man talking to Jackie - a conversation that appeared to upset Jackie?

Based on the new information, is it likely that the "two beer swilling men" were in fact friends of MH, and not (instead) men from out of town attending a London Knight's game?


Saturday the 4th   On the day of her murder, Jackie was agitated and wanted to talk to her mother.  DP was along with her, and this appeared to limit the conversation to some degree, although Jackie indicated to her Mom that she did not want to go work at the Met that day.    Nonetheless Jackie did go to work - and took a cab out to the Met.   If I recall,  MH offered to go to the Met with her that nite, and made this offer because Jackie appeared agitated about the prospects of working at the Met.     

While at work, her co-workers noted that Jackie was not herself (and we have assumed this meant agitated or fearful).  Leaving work she tried to get someone to give her a ride to the bus stop (and we have assumed of course that she was fearful of the walk over the overpass etc, and the chance of coming in contact with someone en route).   

Initially we had understood that Jackie was to attend the pyjama party, and also she had something arranged with DP that same evening.  This always sounded a bit odd - having two things lined up after work, especially given the lateness of the evening.   Now that we know that the PJ party was the nite before, this makes more sense.

Various witness accounts indicated that when the car stopped for Jackie (near the overpass), Jackie stepped into the backseat.  This has always suggested that Jackie new the people in the car, and that there were already two people in the front seat.   


Thanks for helping out my memory of things. 





Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 17, 2018, 05:07:00 AM
Remembering Jackie's birthday today...with love.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: chickapey on April 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
Declan... when I spoke to MLC she said she didn't know Jackie and had not invited her to the party nor was she an invited guest of Marilyn. This makes sense then that DP would be expecting her... if she got off work at 10 - 10:15 I wonder how long it would take her to get home on the city bus in those days? Then I wonder ... with the girls and young kids going missing and murdered during this time... what, if anything did DP do when she didn't show up? Did he attempt to go to Jackie's or call the house to see what was keeping her? Did he go out looking for her? Were they supposed to meet somewhere downtown like a coffee shop or restaurant? This seems weird to me that they were together during the day Saturday and had plans... likely he said to her "see you after work and we can go to such and such or hang out" and do nothing when she fails to show. Especially that time of night and with how close they lived to one another. What about the lady who was supposed to be keeping an eye on Jackie and her brother? Did she knock on the door at a certain time to see if they were in for the night? Go speak to them in the morning to see if they got in ok the night before? Who would have called Mrs English in hospital and said Jackie hadn't been seen all day? She seemed to get the ball rolling as soon as she found out but what were people doing before this?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on May 22, 2018, 11:38:10 AM
Quote Chickapey:

".. what, if anything did DP do when she didn't show up? Did he attempt to go to Jackie's or call the house to see what was keeping her? Did he go out looking for her? Were they supposed to meet somewhere downtown like a coffee shop or restaurant? This seems weird to me that they were together during the day Saturday and had plans... likely he said to her "see you after work and we can go to such and such or hang out" and do nothing when she fails to show. Especially that time of night and with how close they lived to one another."

Hi Chick, David P. was working at the Latin Quarter Saturday night and didn't get off until 1am. He was expecting Jackie to come to his apartment when he got home from work.  She never arrived, so he went down the street to her place looking for her. The next morning he told the LQ staff that she was missing and asked if anyone had heard from her. Everyone was very concerned, and a regular customer at the restaurant called police to report her missing.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on September 18, 2018, 06:51:55 PM


Once again, Jackie's annual walk will be upon us in the next couple of weeks. We hope to see familiar & new faces. This walk will mark the anniversary of her death 49 years ago! I will be there to honour my sister & have her remembered.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Concerned on September 18, 2018, 10:53:11 PM
Wow, 49 years. Bless your hearts.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: John Wilson Murray on October 02, 2018, 09:56:16 AM
meet about 9:15-9:30 again?
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on October 02, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
Yep--see you there JWM. :)
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 04, 2018, 09:51:13 PM
Thank you to all the wonderful folks who braved the cold tonight to walk with Jackie. A few new people & all of those who make it annually. Jackie & the English family have been blessed & you have become not only my friends but my extended family All those people have no idea of my gratitude & my awe of their dedication to Jackie.

Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jimeeb on October 08, 2018, 08:57:33 AM
Anne,
I'm so sorry I missed this - and only by a few days. I've joined the FB page so maybe next year I will be reminded and not miss joining you all.

Hugs,
Jim
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on October 10, 2018, 08:29:07 AM
Jim

We would love to have you join us for next years walk. It is already being planned as it will mark 50 years since Jackie made her final journey.

Hope to meet you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: jimeeb on January 18, 2019, 02:22:24 PM
If there is an email list of Jackie English supporters, please add me as I would like to be notified in advance for the 2019 walk for Jackie.

Cheers!
Jim
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: freeman on March 28, 2019, 01:04:47 PM
New book that lets you "Dig deep into the unsolved murder of Jackie English and join the hunt for a serial killer"
The Forest City Killer: A Serial Murderer, a Cold-Case Sleuth, and a Search for Justice
by Vanessa Brown

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44498180-the-forest-city-killer

Paperback, 328 pages
Expected publication: October 4th 2019 by ECW Press

 I had not heard anything about this previously. Who is Vanessa Brown and is she associated with Mike Arntfield?  The blurb says the has used Det Alsop's files.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on March 28, 2019, 08:00:24 PM
Vanessa is an author who lives in London. She has written other books, one about the history of the London Hotel. I believe she is a member of Unsolved Canada, and no, she is not associated with Mike Arntfield.

I have met Vanessa on Jackie's annual walks and look forward to her new book about Jackie.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Jesa on April 17, 2019, 08:09:30 AM
Today would be Jackie's 65th birthday. Although I don't have her here to celebrate with.....I celebrate her life & the time we did have to share. NEVER FORGOTTEN JACKIE & always loved.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: Have faith on April 17, 2019, 01:39:26 PM
 Happy Heavenly Birthday to Jackie.  Jesa has made sure that she will never be forgotten, which is the ultimate in sisterly love. I believe Jackie is right beside you Jesa, celebrating her life with you.
Title: Re: Jacqueline English - London, ON - Murdered - 1969
Post by: factsfirst on June 18, 2019, 08:54:03 PM
Attended an excellent presentation tonight at the London Public Library by Vanessa Brown about the Jacqueline English unsolved case. Lots of well researched and factual information. Plenty of good questions from the audience. Vanessa's new book called "The Forest City Killer" is due out on October 4 of this year, the 50th anniversary of Jacqueline's abduction. A small ceremony will precede this year's annual walk for Jacqueline English on October 4th.