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Listing Of Unsolved Murders & Missing People In Canada => British Columbia Unsolved Murders & Missing People => Victoria => Topic started by: BC Ident on November 30, 2008, 03:51:35 AM

Title: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: BC Ident on November 30, 2008, 03:51:35 AM
Carmen Robinson

Age (At Time of Disappearance):
17-years old

Date of Disappearance:
December 8, 1973

Location of Disappearance:
West Burnside Road & Holland Avenue, View Royal municiplaity, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Physical Description:
Caucasian female, long blond hair.



Circumstances:

Carmen was a dishwasher at the Ingraham Hotel located on Douglas St. near Burnside Rd. East (now a Super 8 hotel).

She finished her shift and stepped out into the night. She caught the bus home and was dropped off on West Burnside Rd. near Holland Ave., just a short distance from her house. She hasn't been seen since.

A person of interest wanted for questioning by the police is a man a witness had reported seeing in an argument with carmen on Helmcken Road two days before her disappearance.

Description of the individual is as follows:

Male, swarthy complexion, black hair, full beard.

He drove a 1970's Chevy Nova or Plymouth Duster painted burnt orange. There was a bumper sticker with the name "Ferguson" on it who the police learned was a candidate for a school board election in the B.C. interior.
Title: Re: 1973-12-08, Robinson, Carmen - missing
Post by: BC Ident on November 30, 2008, 03:56:17 AM
Photo of Carmen can be found at the Time Colonist website or at this location:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightCanada/index.php?showtopic=3199
Title: Re: 1973-12-08, ROBINSON, Carmen - missing
Post by: waabzy on November 30, 2008, 11:38:12 AM
PHOTO of Carmen Robinson
Title: Re: 1973-12-08, ROBINSON, Carmen - missing
Post by: Adrian on November 30, 2008, 12:37:40 PM


Thanks guys, I wonder if the man she was seen quarelling with, is the fellow who may have taken her, or abducted her. Maybe she knew him from work?

I was pretty young then, and we didn't often think too much of danger, as we do now a days. I talked to everybody. Always looked for the good, and usually found it. Today, I am more careful, but I still look for the good, till I get hit with the bad.

That could be plain old gut reactions, feelings of danger, fear, or something just not right.I don't know what happened to this gal, but feel she met up with a bad guy.  :(
Title: Re: 1973-12-08, ROBINSON, Carmen - missing
Post by: BC Ident on November 30, 2008, 03:08:29 PM
My personal view is she either knew her abductor, the abductor knew her or knew of her.

The person(s) whoever they may be, had a vehicle. The person (or persons) watched her wait for the bus and then followed the bus until she stepped off in a less busy location.

The police had their wives take the bus after the abduction and looked for anyone suspicious.

Any persons involved would not be on that bus. The person had to have had their own transport. It would explain why she wasn't found in a small area.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: BCID on May 29, 2009, 11:26:54 AM
So I went to the archives to get more details on this case. I wanted to know what was said at the time of her disappearance. Unfortunately, the newspaper for that area was on strike until near June of 1974.

I ran out of time before I could look further. Perhaps I will obtain some more info on my next trip.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 17, 2010, 11:34:10 PM
Carmen Robinson worked at the Ingraham, which had a pub. Lots of people drank there.  This is where I think she came into contact with the persons who abducted her.  The Burnside bus picked up passengers near the Ingraham. Carmen got on and off  there.  Probably so did her abducters when they went to drink at the Ingraham. These people  used the bus and lived along the bus line.  They probably rode the bus to where she got off after work and figured out her route.  Maybe they waited one night for the bus to drop her and abducted her into the car. They may have obtained this car to carry out the abduction, as they had to have followed her on the bus to know her route. It would probably require two or more people to do that, or someone she trusted who lured her into the car.  If she was arguing with one of these people a couple of days before, she recognized him from the Ingraham, and wouldn't have gone anywhere with him willingly.  After they did this they would try to make sure no one put the clues of their bus riding habits together and figured out who they were. Other riders would have seen them on the bus, and the drivers maybe remember where they let them off.  Probably as the investigation published a picture of the suspect, it was close enough in appearence to make them leave the area.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 18, 2010, 12:39:02 AM
Thanks for posting oldentimeragain! That's an interesting scenario. People rode buses to go drinking? In 1973? So you think this was a planned abduction by more than one guy? Was the Ingraham a bar where hard drinking, hard living men and women gravitated to? Would Carmen have contact with the drinkers if she was a dish washer? Maybe it was someone she worked alongside with? someone she rebuffed and he didn't take to kindly to it. It does happen. Did the Police interview her co-workers?

Carmen Robinson worked at the Ingraham, which had a pub. Lots of people drank there.  This is where I think she came into contact with the persons who abducted her.  The Burnside bus picked up passengers near the Ingraham. Carmen got on and off  there.  Probably so did her abducters when they went to drink at the Ingraham. These people  used the bus and lived along the bus line.  They probably rode the bus to where she got off after work and figured out her route.  Maybe they waited one night for the bus to drop her and abducted her into the car. They may have obtained this car to carry out the abduction, as they had to have followed her on the bus to know her route. It would probably require two or more people to do that, or someone she trusted who lured her into the car.  If she was arguing with one of these people a couple of days before, she recognized him from the Ingraham, and wouldn't have gone anywhere with him willingly.  After they did this they would try to make sure no one put the clues of their bus riding habits together and figured out who they were. Other riders would have seen them on the bus, and the drivers maybe remember where they let them off.  Probably as the investigation published a picture of the suspect, it was close enough in appearence to make them leave the area.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on March 18, 2010, 11:13:12 AM
From the link BC Ident posted earlier:
Cold Case: 17-year-old vanishes
Day 2 in series on Vancouver Island's unsolved of cases of murdered or missing people
Rob Shaw, Times Colonist
Published: Tuesday, September 23, 2008

The Times Colonist is highlighting several unsolved cases of missing or murdered people. This is Day 2 of our coverage by Lindsay Kines and Rob Shaw.


Who: Carmen Robinson, 17

What: Missing, suspected homicide

When: Dec. 8, 1973

Where: Last seen exiting a bus at West Burnside Road and Holland Avenue in View Royal.

Few of Vancouver Island's unsolved police cases are as baffling as the disappearance of Carmen Robinson.

The tall, attractive, 17-year-old blond stepped off a bus two blocks from her View Royal home one Saturday night and simply vanished. She was never found.

Although detectives have re-worked her file dozens of times, they've had few leads other than a bizarre but ultimately unproven tip by Clifford Olson, one of Canada's most notorious serial killers.

The case is now almost 35 years old.

By all accounts, Robinson was a happy, healthy teenager who seemed to have few enemies. She worked as a dishwasher at the Ingraham Hotel on Douglas Street near Burnside Road East -- now a Super 8 motel. After her shift on Saturday, Dec. 8, 1973, she caught the bus home, intending to enjoy two days off.

She was last seen stepping into the night at West Burnside Road and Holland Avenue, a short distance from her house. She did not make it home.

Detectives who took her case faced a daunting task. There was no physical evidence and no direct witnesses.

The first RCMP investigator, Wendal Milne, started by looking at her family and friends. Robinson's family has never agreed to a media interview and could not be located by the Times Colonist for this article.

"We interviewed all of them a number of times at length to see if they had any thoughts, an ex-boyfriend or somebody who hit on her at her at a party, to try and come up with anything," said Milne, who retired from the RCMP as a staff sergeant in 1995.

"Out of all that she came out as a pretty good girl."

Police tried to locate all known sex offenders in the area. Detectives also briefly used another tactic -- they put their wives on buses late at night and told them to look for anyone suspicious. Unfortunately, this turned up no leads.

Undercover officers kept surveillance on several houses near the bus stop, without success, said Milne. "It was really frustrating, because in a lot of cases you have a lead or something to go on, to bring up a flag," said Milne. "There were absolutely no flags to go in any direction."

Investigator Bruce Brown took over the file in the 1980s. Detectives tried something unusual -- they hypnotized a woman who claimed to have seen Robinson arguing with a man on Helmcken Road two days before she disappeared.

The witness described a man with a swarthy complexion, black hair and a full beard. She said Robinson got into his car, an early '70s Chevy Nova or Plymouth Duster painted burnt orange.

"If I see one of those, I still write the licence plate down," said Brown, now retired and serving as B.C.'s deputy police complaint commissioner.

The car had a bumper sticker with the name Ferguson. With help from the public, police matched the sticker to a school board election in B.C.'s interior. It still remains one of only leads in the case.

It's likely Robinson was randomly attacked and killed, said Brown, who still leans toward a sexual motive.

Police discussed her case with investigators working Ted Bundy's file in the United States.

Bundy was executed in 1989 after confessing to raping, killing and dismembering 30 people, some of whom were in Washington state. However, it was never proven he visited Vancouver Island, said Brown.

Bundy was not the only serial killer on police radar. Clifford Olson was living in Victoria at the time, bilking pensioners out of small amounts of money. In 1982, he confessed to killing 11 young men and women. He told police he knew where Robinson was buried.

The RCMP flew Olson from his cell at Kingston Penitentiary in Ontario to Victoria on Nov. 30, 1982. He led police to a rocky spot at Fort Rodd Hill, near Royal Roads University, said Brown. Police used sonar machines to examine the ground but couldn't find any evidence of bodies.

"It became apparent Olson was using any unsolved case to either gain access to the media or as a trip," said Brown. Police shipped him back to his prison cell.

Although both Brown and Milne still think about the Robinson case, they don't appear optimistic it can be solved without a major tip from the public.

"I'd be surprised, unless it turns out to be somebody on their deathbed that decides to make a confession," said Milne.

"I don't know I'd say it would never be solved," said Brown.

"There's somebody out there who knows something who hasn't come forward yet."

West Shore RCMP Insp. Jim Faulkner said the case remains "substantial" and is investigated "from time to time" but police could still use public tips.

Rob Shaw can be reached at 250-380-5350 or rfshaw@tc.canwest.com


© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2008
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 18, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
The point about the bus is that if you don't have transportation, you take a bus.  It wasn't about drinking and driving. I assume lots of various people drank at the Ingraham.  When Carmen Robinson was working there, she would be out for breaks and lunch etc, and could be seen by other people in the establishment. I think the bus is crucial.  These people rode the bus, saw her on the bus, followed her on the bus, and abducted her after she got off the bus. I say it took two people, one to restrain her and one to drive the car. In those days the streets were not too well lit, and areas out of town were a lot more remote and not as well populated.  They could have driven her anywhere. Also the drawing released by police had to be close to the appearance of one of them, it panicked them into leaving, as no more progress was made in finding them.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 18, 2010, 11:54:09 PM
Another idea may be the situation of Carmen Robinson arguing with a man at the Holland Avenue bus stop.  Here is likely proof that he followed her on the bus, and got out when she did. Perhaps as suggested, he made an advance to her, and she refused.  Probably recognising him from the Ingraham.  After this rebuff, he started to plan to get her alone, and with help from another like minded person, abducted her. The other person could have been a brother, cousin, a friend, a roommate.  But I say they lived close to the bus line to use it as transportation. These people may have spent at lot of time at the Ingraham, meaning they may not have held down jobs, or jobs with unconventional hours. Without doubt these people were seen at the Ingraham, on the buses, in the area where they lived. Just no one was able to pull all the threads together at the time to lead the police to them. This type of person would have criminal records and their mug shots are probably on file with the police forces, just no one to identify them, yet.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 19, 2010, 01:19:13 AM
That sounds quite plausible. I wonder where they buried her? Any thoughts on the where?  With the sticker on the bumper, I'm wondering if a young man borrowed his dad's car? What was the drinking age then.....21? Do you know what time she left work or got off the bus?
Do you have the pic of the suspect to post?
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Concerned on March 19, 2010, 05:01:39 AM
Wonder what the bus driver knows. Thinks. Remembers. They tend to know people and patterns and the types of things that seem odd.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on March 19, 2010, 11:10:50 AM
oldtimer; do you know if there's a copy of the sketch of that suspect online anywhere?.... wonder if it was ever released to the media! ???
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 19, 2010, 11:37:22 PM
The drawing of the suspect who was seen arguing a few days before the disappearance was in the Times Colonist.  It was also released at the time.  The only one(s) who know if she is "buried" are the people who abducted Carmen. As I said before they may have taken her just about anywhere. The police would have spoken to the bus driver that night.  Perhaps there was a different driver the night of the argument. Drinking age was 19 at that time.  I don't see it as a young man borrowing his Dad's car. The parents would have known the supects car as fitting the description of their own, and something would have come of that. The registration of cars was most likely all on paper then, and it would take a through search to find cars that were the same make, model and colour. The bus drivers and riders are the best chance of information.  Does anyone know if the article in the newspaper brought in new information?
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on March 20, 2010, 08:40:27 AM
Is this the drawing oldtimer? I found three ....Carmen... I think the suspect....and the place Carmen went missing.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 20, 2010, 12:38:36 PM
Thanks for the pic's Lostlinganer. Now there's a face only a mother could love. He looks to be a lumberjack to me and French Canadian. That's a spooky place to be hopping on and off a bus. I'd take nerves of steel to be walking down that road and always looking over your shoulder. I'm not able to find in the searches the time she was dropped off or the time she left work? Anyone know? There should be another blitz concerning this once young lovely lady. I haven't found any articles oldentimeragain whether or not any new information was brought in which would help find Carmen's abductor. Actually I haven't found any. I'll have to do a deeper search when I have a couple more minutes.  Carmen did get on the bus for certain? Maybe some one she knew on a casual basis offered her a ride home when she was waiting for the bus after work?
Lostinganer, I took another look at that ugly mug, why does it seem familiar? There's something nagging in the back of my mind about that pic. Is there another pic out there similar to another suspect? Why would the Police put a man in the bus waiting pic instead of a young girl? The Police are such nincompoops sometimes.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on March 20, 2010, 04:15:23 PM
Sleuth; that's not necessarily a "bus waiting" pic.  That's the little stretch where Carmen disappeared.  It might also be the bus stop though because of that man standing there waiting???
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 20, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Those are the pictures from the Times Colonist. The sketch looks to me to be Italian or southern European background. I agree Sleuth, the police need to revist this and try to contact people from that time.  It would take a considerable resource to try to find people who lived in these areas now, but sometimes families don't move for years. The areas along the bus route, places they may have frequented, or the small grocery stores they may have used. A place to start should be the Ingrahm and follow the route to Holland Ave. Finding owners or employees from that time seems unlikely. Employees of the Ingraham pub from those days, could have seen someone like the drawing. Or someone remembers some people who skipped out on there rent suddenly and left without notice.  Small things that may add up with other small clues to give a way ahead.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 21, 2010, 12:21:19 AM
Do you live close enough to go snooping oldentimeragain? Does nobody know about this bus!!!!!  ::) ::) Or what time Carmen left work? Anyone? Someone? The only thing I know about buses is; I'm generally behind them, and I don't mean running after one.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 21, 2010, 09:13:52 PM
Sleuth, the newspaper article says it was night when she got off the bus at Holland Ave.  This was winter, and that meant it was dark early.  Could have been anywhere from 5 pm to midnight. A private indivigual won't be able to accomplish anything. This needs resources to search old property records, archives, city directories, census records, to find related people.  Old BC Hydro(bus) or BC transit employee records, it's a big job. Then to locate people and interview them.  Probably it would need someone full time. I think that unless the police believe they have a good chance of finding out something, they won't put too much resources into it. There must be eye witnesses to these people, but unless something really struck them as important, they won't remember.  To find someone who does, would take lots of effort. One way may be to put it out to the public again, and ask for anyone who remembers the time and that area. People who once lived there.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 28, 2010, 09:32:21 PM
Reading over my early posts, one thought has arisen.  These abductors didn't have jobs.  There was Unemployment Insurance available then, and welfare.  They may have been drawing one of these benefits.  These records would be held in an archive.  Names would match address's along this bus route and in the associated areas.  A search of these old records may provide some names to be checked out.  Also the police records of the case may point to certain areas of interest. Anyone on these forums with a enough background to suggest if any of these ideas are workable?
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on March 28, 2010, 09:54:02 PM
oldtimeragain; of course these ideas are workable but - there's that but~lol
all the individuals records are private and confidencial, except to the police and government.  I doubt the police would go that far.... that is to say ...theorize that the crime might have been done by a person out of work.  They would have to start with every address on the bus route and cross reference it with UI (which it was then...now it's EI) and then community welfare, then Provincial Welfare .... unless they had specific tip/s that it was somebody on the bus route that was unemployed, they probably would not see fit to put the man hours into it.... too much cost. 
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 28, 2010, 10:04:13 PM
I agree with Lost, that would turn into someone's career. oldentimeragian you have mentioned a couple of times about person(s) and explained why. But I don't think it would take more than one person to abduct someone, for example the recent case of Donna, and so many more. And if Carmen knew this person, she wouldn't think twice about hoping into his car, if he said, 'hop in. I'll give you a ride home.' Dark, cold, tired after work, 'you bet!'. And in she hops. Some men are just plain old bastards, well not necessarily old...........
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on March 28, 2010, 10:14:55 PM
The reason I believe two were responsible is the evidence of the argument.  Carmen had resisted some attempted action from the sketch suspect.  Would she have gone into his car willingly a few days later? What the police need is an address or likely area that the suspect(s) frequented to start from.  Anyone out there have some information, some memory of someone who matched the sketch?  I argee that this would take huge resources or a long time, but I believe these are the only methods open to find the abductors, unless someone knows who they are and is withholding that information.  Do the police have the will to do this?
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 28, 2010, 10:46:38 PM
No the Police don't have the will. It's not like it was once, when a Police Officer was dogged and determined to find a culprit and spend his spare time looking. Now they clock out and head for a bar. To them the past is the past so let it lie while they take care of the donuts, I mean, the day to day crime.  :P
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sleuth on March 28, 2010, 10:49:06 PM
You may be getting bogged down with this man seen arguing with Carmen. Maybe it wasn't this man, but another man. The Police only had an argument to run with.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: bestcho on April 04, 2010, 11:12:20 AM
Hey all. Perhaps you all may be over thinking this one. Appreciate the fact that there was and is only one way to get off the island. Ferry. It's highly unlikely that someone would chance taking a body onto the ferry. The vehicles mentioned, were not huge production vehicles. Therefore the obvious place to start is to find all those matching from the area of where the bumper sticker was from, and then cross referencing that with the vehicle registrations that may have been transferred to Vancouver island over the years. Likely not a huge list. The next possible search is to identify the type of clientelle that hung around that bar in those days. were they fishermen, dock workers, and did it cater to a specific group?. The trouble with having a personal theory about a case, is that you will likely spend a large amount of time chasing non existant clues. I am not suggesting that we not discuss cases, because that indeed may tweak a clue or a fact. But before going off on wild goose chases, think of the likelyhood of the events. The vast majority of murders and/or abductions are not well planned out actions of highly intelligent psychos. They are merely crimes of opportunity. Even prolific serial killers, usually do not have a full set of plans lade out like in the movies. They simply attack out of availability. That's what makes them so difficult to solve because they are so random. Simply by chance. Wrong place wrong time. Aquaintances are too easily tracked down, as a rule.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on April 04, 2010, 05:39:00 PM
Quote
Investigator Bruce Brown took over the file in the 1980s. Detectives tried something unusual -- they hypnotized a woman who claimed to have seen Robinson arguing with a man on Helmcken Road two days before she disappeared.

The witness described a man with a swarthy complexion, black hair and a full beard. She said Robinson got into his car, an early '70s Chevy Nova or Plymouth Duster painted burnt orange.

"If I see one of those, I still write the licence plate down," said Brown, now retired and serving as B.C.'s deputy police complaint commissioner.

The car had a bumper sticker with the name Ferguson. With help from the public, police matched the sticker to a school board election in B.C.'s interior. It still remains one of only leads in the case.

Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: bestcho on April 05, 2010, 05:51:41 AM
Hi again Des. I wasn't suggesting that the guy in the car isn't a suspect. In fact I was suggestin that that lead shouldn't be that difficult to try and track down. With the provincial registry data base that process should only take but a few minutes. I would think (and pray) that the police have addressed that lead. But maybe not. What I was questioning, was a few of the theories that were posted, with no evidence to even suggest they may be clues.
Part of the problem, (and lawyers and the courts will admit this), is that witnesses can be unintentially totally incorrect. For instance. A bus driver gets used to seeing an attractive young girl getting on his bus a few times a week for months. The familiarity of seeing her every day makes everyone somewhat complacent to detail. Then all of a sudden, police question the driver about specific details about (to him) a non descript event that occurred a few weeks before. His info is at least questionable. I think often about these little details. We quite possibly have all been witnesses to a crime, and not even known it.  But quite honestly, if a police officer asked me today, where I was and what was I doing a week ago yesterday at 9p.m.. I really couldn't give him reliable info or details. Especially if the event occurred but didn't appear to be extremely out of the ordinary.   I try to be the devils advocate in order to promote an exchange of logical processes, not to stifle an exchange of ideas. If we continue to do what I think is the purpose of this site, and that is to have an intelligent sharing of ideas, perhaps we may stumble accross something that an investigator hasn't thought of. And just maybe, one of these cases will come to a timely and proper conclusion. Lets hope.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on April 06, 2010, 12:04:52 AM
There are a number of ideas that could be made to fit the facts known to the public.  Only the police know all that is in this file. The car idea is a good lead, but as stated in the newspaper it is nearly the only lead, so it sounds that it was a dead end. The car could have been stolen.  Bestcho seems to have spent time around the RCMP, so likely knows how they work in these matters better than most.  He has noted some ideas that have been posted. For someone to remember from this far away, they had to be very impressed by what they saw or heard. A large number of people read these posts, and may have some facts that they will not, or are reluctant, to express on a forum like this.  The posters may have some knowledge they will not expose on this forum.  I think it is a good idea to have any theory expressed even if it doesn't fit the facts that some people are aware of. Maybe other people know more than expressed here.  Lets hear all possible facts and ideas, perhaps they are near to the truth and may awaken a memory of a reader.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on September 24, 2010, 12:40:04 AM
There have been no followup posts here for sometime.  I want to outline some of the facts and speculation to try bring forward any information or rekindle interest in solving this.

Carmen is a Burnside road bus rider and boards near the Ingraham after her work.
Suspect likely drinks at Ingraham and saw her there.
Suspect also rides Burnside Road bus to his residence.
Suspect trails Carmen on the bus, doesn't get off at his regular stop, and learns where she departs bus.
Suspect gets a car to "pick up" Carmen.
Carmen refuses and argues with suspect, witnessed by a person who helps Police.
Suspect recruits a partner to help, plans on getting Carmen into his car
Suspects wait near Holland avenue bus stop, until she appears.  They may have lead the bus, having watched for her to board.
Abduct Carmen,  things get out of control, murder and dispose of body.
Suspects stay in area, try to blend in, or tie up any loose ends they think they may have left.
Sketch appears in newspaper, suspects vanish.

Leads:

Unemployment insurance records?
Welfare records?
Car  registration records?
Sketch?

Any other ideas or scenerios that may fit the facts?

Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Chris on September 26, 2010, 01:46:44 PM
Very good. You'd think someone out there must remember something, but does not want to get involved. I hope they do. It would be nice to solve this.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: lostlinganer on September 26, 2010, 03:50:07 PM
nice to see you again oldentimer - I'm glad you pulled this back up every once in a while.  I would like to know just how accurate this suspect sketch is.... reason being .... it reminds me of a "younger face" of someone else who was posted about on this site and had to be taken off.  Melody would know the suspect I'm referring to.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on September 29, 2010, 12:19:22 AM
lostlinganer

That may be an avenue to follow up,  try to find the picture you refer to, could be a connection.  Maybe will will get more posts of similar pictures.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: solvy on November 02, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
this info just came up- great to see police are looking for new info.

West Shore
1973 Missing Person-Carmen ROBINSON-Request for Assistance from Public
Share |
File # 1973-701-31
2010-11-02 08:59 PDT

West Shore RCMP Major Crime Unit continues to investigate the disappearance of Carmen ROBINSON on December 8, 1973. ROBINSON was 17-years-old at the time of her disappearance and was last seen near the intersection of Holland Avenue and West Burnside Road in View Royal, British Columbia.

West Shore RCMP Major Crime Unit is seeking assistance from the public in locating anyone who may have stayed, lived, or rented at the residence located at 830 Lavender Ave., Saanich British Columbia in 1973.

It is believed a couple by the name of Robert and Edith Wilson were the registered property owners at that time. Mr. and Mrs. Wilson are not suspects in this matter but investigators would like to speak with them or any of their surviving family members in the event they may be able to assist in this investigation.

Anyone who may have the contact information for Robert or Edith Wilson (or surviving family members) or anyone who lived at the residence in 1973 is asked to contact West Shore RCMP at 250-474-2264.

Released by

Cst. J.E. (Julie) Chanin
Community Policing Section
West Shore RCMP Detachment
698 Atkins Avenue, Victoria, BC V9B 3A4
Office: (250) 391-3305
Fax: (250) 391-3308
Email: bcrcmp@rcmp-grc.gc.ca
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: VICVI47 on November 05, 2010, 01:03:58 PM
Clifford Olsen was living in Victoria at the time of the disappearance according to these posts. This crime would be about 7 years before his first known victim was found somewhere around 1980.  The MO of his later crimes fits this one quite well.
It's way too much of a coincidence that 2 psycho killers were living in a community as small as this one back then, I just don't buy it. I also doubt he started his reign of terror in 1980.  Olsen was born in 1940 so he would have been 33 at the time this crime was committed. He spent an awful lot ot of time in and out of jail but I believe he was free at the time of her disappearance.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: Sijiazhentan on November 06, 2010, 06:34:39 PM
I found an online obituary from June of this year for a Mr. Robert Melvin "Bob" Wilson. The obituary is from the Toronto Star and reveals that Mr. Wilson was predeceased by a spouse named Edith Elizabeth (Letts/Dutton) Wilson. Interestingly, you will note from the obituary that it appears that Mr. & Mrs. Wilson had a child named Janice Lillian (Wilson) Chafe - this daughter is said to have died in 1972, one year prior to Carmen Robinson's disappearance:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thestar/obituary.aspx?n=robert-melvin-wilson-bob&pid=143251002 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thestar/obituary.aspx?n=robert-melvin-wilson-bob&pid=143251002)

You will also note that the couple had a son from Edith Wilson's previous marriage named Gary Richard Dutton. He is also deceased, however, it appears Gary Dutton's wife (Margaret Dutton) is still alive, though barely. She is seen on this facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/Margaret.M.Dutton (http://www.facebook.com/Margaret.M.Dutton)

Her facebook page was found by searching Facebook for the name "Mark S. Dutton" who is referenced in the obituary as being Robert Wilson's grandson. You may find his facebook page and other websites here:

http://www.facebook.com/Mark.S.Dutton (http://www.facebook.com/Mark.S.Dutton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_S._Dutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_S._Dutton)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2611040 (http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2611040)
http://www.myspace.com/duttonchess (http://www.myspace.com/duttonchess)

Mark Dutton is shown on these pages to be residing in Victoria, British Columbia. Mark Dutton's current residence is the only suggestion that his extended family may have had ties to Victoria in their history and is why I am presenting these details to your attention. Hopefully, the Robert and Edith Wilson mentioned in the obituary, are the ones RCMP are looking for.

Good luck.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: justice on November 06, 2010, 07:14:25 PM
This may be far-fetched or totally unrelated, but can someone read Pamela Darlington's topic and see reply 6, just when I read about the guy following the person who replied sister on the bus, made me think..and the timeline...but I am not familiar with these areas, are they far apart?
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: BCID on April 22, 2011, 01:57:03 PM
I'll add a few points to this.

From my understanding, the Ingy bar was used mainly by the working class although I won't deny there could have been the unemployed. When our work day was done, my boss and his friends would go off to the Ingy to drink.

And to VICV who said the possibility of two potential killers in such a small town is too much of a coincidence, it isn't. I have spent years researching the news from the city of Victoria and you would be amazed at those who have killed in the past here whom I consider fit the profile of someone who could kill again. So having two isn't a stretch.

And I don't believe she would be transported off the island. I believe she is still here. At that time, the western communities (like Langford) were considered the boonies. There were tons of wooded areas and large acrerage where a body could be easily buried. The western communities were right next door. In the mid-late 70's a convicted rapist used Sooke (a bit further away) to dispose of smeone whom he left for dead. I say convicted rapist because there was insufficient evidence to convicted for attempted murder.

And Sijiazhentan, did you pass along this research to the RCMP? That is a fantastic find.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on April 22, 2011, 11:53:52 PM
BCID
Good to see people are still working on this case.  "Scotty" Gardiner the retired RCMP superintendent devotes a chapter of his book " In The Mind of a Mountie" to Clifford Olson, as well as discusses the Robinson case. As part of the plea deal Olson was brought to Victoria to identify a body dump location.  Gardiner states "Olson without difficulty directed the investigators to the Colwood area. He appeared to be sincere, but claimed property development made him confused. One point he made was an umbrella was left at or near the body. That had no known significance.  The area to which he directed the investigators was, in 1973, of sparse enough development and with wooded lands towards the Fort Rodd Hill Historic Site such that a body could have been concealed there."  Gardiner also states: "Leaving her part time evening employment, she had travelled homeward to the View Royal area, west on Burnside Road on the last bus.  It was somewhere around 11:00 pm when she left the bus, it was at the end of the route, she was alone.  The bus driver watched as she walked down the road until his vision was lost in the night's darkness.  The girl was never seen again."

Earlier posts tried to determine the time of the disappearance, this will confirm the time.  Also she was alone, no other passengers.  Clearly the abductor(s) were waiting somewhere between the stop and her nearby home.  They must have planned the abduction to precisely know when and where she would be and where to stop her.
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: oldentimeragain on April 23, 2011, 12:29:20 AM
Some Internet research provides the following:  Nov 15 2010. Goldstream News Gazette.
  A potential lead was followed and considered to leave the case cold.. The RCMP wanted to speak to John or Edith Wilson who resided at 830 Lavender Avenue,  Victoria, in 1973.  A granddaughter surfaced and claimed her grandmother, then in her 70's lived at this address and had few visitors.  Lavender Avenue appears to be about one block from Burnside Road, where the bus travelled.  Anyone living there may have taken the Burnside bus.  Lavender also appears to be within one or two kilometers of Holland Avenue.  I wonder how precise the granddaughter 's memory is on the time frame? Maybe her Grandmother moved from this residence, before the disappearance, and the supects(s) lived there?  Maybe the bearded man or Clifford Olson?  Or maybe there is some other connection between the house and the suspect(s). Perhaps there is someone in that area still who might have some remembrance of what happend or who lived at that address? 
Title: Re: ROBINSON, Carmen - missing (1973-12-08)
Post by: leonagleant on September 15, 2011, 06:25:41 PM
I wonder if Carmen's remains or something pertaining to her was discovered at that particular address many years later? Is there any update on the above information?